Dunphy:Rooney the best player since Pele

davyjose

eZe^ wrote: »

Well, I'm not going to lie, I watched fcuk all EPL in the 90's, but any player that has 380 goals at a very high level deserves a mention no? Any knowledgeable premier league fans seem to rave about him non stop, whereas it's really only United supporters who would elevate Cantona to legend status.

That irks me a bit, because you're suggesting a degree of bias on the part of United fans. Whereas, we simply know firsthand how good, and how important, he was. There isn't one United fan I know of that doesn't consider him the most important player we've had since the days of Best - so if it's bias, it's a very particular, coincidental form of bias, if we've all happened upon the same player.

We hadn't won a league in 26 years, and this guy took us to four in five years. Every time he played in May, in the Premiership, he won the title. He was by far the main man, in a team that included Keane, Giggs, Schmeichel and other quality, quality players.

Time can do funny things to people's memories, and I think Cantona is a victim of that. But he was great. Alan Shearer got goals, Cantona got wins. He carried, perhaps, less tangible, less set-in-stone qualities than a big number with the word "goals" beside it. But never, not even for a second, do i sit back and say to myself "I wish we had Shearer instead of Cantona."

m@cc@

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Fair enough,I'll throw in Zico too.

That's an excellent shout.

missingtime

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

World's best

Messi
Rooney
Ronaldo

at the moment in form.

Johner wrote: »

This would have been so better earlier but i still couldnt resist

m@cc@

davyjose wrote: »

That irks me a bit, because you're suggesting a degree of bias on the part of United fans. Whereas, we simply know firsthand how good, and how important, he was.

He was important for us on the domestic stage but in Europe he did nothing.

Melion

m@cc@ wrote: »

Newcastle is in the UK.

Im probably missing something obvious, but, What?

Peyton Manning

eZe^ wrote: »

It's really not fair to bring Ronaldo's goal scoring record into the equation, because that's not what this is about. Ronaldinho had everything, passing ability better than Xavi, an ability to beat players at will with ridiculously audacious skill. Do you actually remember the things he did? Ronaldo hardly won 'far more silverware', he has one more league titles, but doesn't have a world cup medal.

No, Im definitely arguing C. Ronaldo. Why should I not be allowed include Ronaldo's goalscoring record? We're talking about the best players since Pele - he was all about the goals. You say Ronaldo's goal scoring record should not be considered - how does that differ from how good a passer Ronaldinho was? If anything, Ronaldo's goals were worth a hell of a lot more than 'Dinho being able to pass the ball with his back.

Mr Alan

eZe^ wrote: »

Roy Keane is definitely an arguable inclusion.

In a list of the very best players the world has seen since Pele?! Come on man

m@cc@

eZe^ wrote: »

Ding ding motherfcuking ding. HOWWWW did I leave out arguably one of the top 5 players ever to play the beautiful game.... I'm actually ashamed.. haha

I was a bit iffy about his inclusion just due to the timeline. But yeah, as a Barca fan, you'd should have him about Rivaldo, Romario and Ronaldinho.

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

In a list of the very best players the world has seen since Pele?! Come on man

Id argue Scholes has more of a case than Keane tbh.

Peyton Manning

Much of a shout for Ruud Gullit? Punditry aside? Roberto Baggio maybe?

m@cc@

Melion wrote: »

Im probably missing something obvious, but, What?

You implied Ronaldo was a UK and Ireland phenomenon. I said he wasn't, he was also adored in Spain. You mentioned Michael Owen (for what reason, I'm not sure) so I mentioned it was in the UK.

m@cc@

Archimedez wrote: »

Much of a shout for Ruud Gullit?

Yeah, I'd say so. More than Shearer or Bergkamp anyway.

Mr Alan

re-keane and scholes, neither are near it imo. at least not witout opening the door to a host of other players. in which cause, it just kinda turns into a 'list of deadly players', whereas i think it should be more a 'did i see that right?this guy is a freak of nature' thread.

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

neither are near it imo. at least not witout opening the door to a host of other players. in which cause, it just kinda turns into a 'list of deadly players', whereas i think it should be more a 'did i see that right?this guy is a freak of nature' thread.

I completely agree. Im just saying that if someone considers Keane eligible, I would argue that Scholes would be a better choice if Keane was considered a legitimate candidate. I dont think either are though, when you consider they would be alongside Ronaldo Luis, Van Basten, Maldini et al. Id certainly rank Scholes above Rivaldo, and alongside Zidane though.

m@cc@

Mr Alan wrote: »

neither are near it imo. at least not witout opening the door to a host of other players. in which cause, it just kinda turns into a 'list of deadly players', whereas i think it should be more a 'did i see that right?this guy is a freak of nature' thread.

Paul Scholes is very highly thought of amongst the playing community.

http://manutdpeople.com/Thread-Paul-Scholes-Quotes-from-current-and-former-players

davyjose

m@cc@ wrote: »

He was important for us on the domestic stage but in Europe he did nothing.

Not a great record, but never as bad as blackburn's lone attempt.

let's be honest though, it took a while for English football to pick itself up from the 5 years of exile.

leninbenjamin

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Ok, your comprehension skills are clearly a little off so this will be my last response to you as it is pointless.

My JOS comment wasn't me misrepresting you, it was me applying your logic. Understand the difference?

I'm sorry, but there was no difference. JOS doesn't score 20 goals in a season now does he, so that you would even bring him into the convo is utter bull tbh. You're guilty of exactly what you're accusing me of, selective reading and misrepresentation of my argument.

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Villa came into it as i was, again, providing an example using logic i have seen you apply, in all seriousness i might add.

And once again, you didn't explain how that logic was applied.

I know you're not going to reply, so we'll agree to disagree. But it might be handy to actually explain the rationale behind you're own p.o.v. instead of attempting to get one up on the other poster.

Mr Alan

m@cc@ wrote: »

Paul Scholes is very highly thought of amongst the playing community.

So is Emile Heskey

davyjose

Mr Alan wrote: »

So is Emile Heskey

People wonder why united have such a long run of success. One of the reasons: We can tell the difference between Scholes and Heskey!

recylingbin

Rooney has been superb for United this season.
Maradona hasn't.
Ergo, Rooney > Maradona.
Q.E.D.


Eamo knows his stuff.

Mr Alan

it was a joke. I'm aware of how highly thought of Scholes is. In fact, Gerrard says he is the best player he has ever played alongside (granted, before Torres arrived on the scene).

recylingbin

Mr Alan wrote: »

In a list of the very best players the world has seen since Pele?! Come on man

No.
In a 'poor man's Vinny Jones' list.

davyjose

Mr Alan wrote: »

it was a joke. I'm aware of how highly thought of Scholes is. In fact, Gerrard says he is the best player he has ever played alongside (granted, before Torres arrived on the scene).

I know. I was joking too...

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

it was a joke. I'm aware of how highly thought of Scholes is. In fact, Gerrard says he is the best player he has ever played alongside (granted, before Torres arrived on the scene).

I see what you did there

m@cc@

davyjose wrote: »

Not a great record, but never as bad as blackburn's lone attempt.

let's be honest though, it took a while for English football to pick itself up from the 5 years of exile.

I remember the game against Dortmund in 1997 where Cantona only had Koller lying on the ground between him and the goal. Cantona smacked it straight against Koller. Summed him up in Europe for me.

recylingbin

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Fair enough,I'll throw in Zico too.

If you're having Zico, I'm having Socrates - put Garforth Town on the map.

Bodhisopha

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I'm sorry, but there was no difference. JOS doesn't score 20 goals in a season now does he, so that you would even bring him into the convo is utter bull tbh. You're guilty of exactly what you're accusing me of, selective reading and misrepresentation of my argument.



And once again, you didn't explain how that logic was applied.

I know you're not going to reply, so we'll agree to disagree. But it might be handy to actually explain the rationale behind you're own p.o.v. instead of attempting to get one up on the other poster.

To argue your point that Rooney is better than Ronaldo you said Rooney can play CB, Ronaldo can't. Rooney can play CM, Ronaldo can't. I said, by that logic (versatility) you could argue that O'Shea is the best player in the world.

You argued that Rooney is better than Ronaldo because he has less talented players around him than Ronaldo. I said by that logic you could argue that Villa is better than Rooney. I also said that was a poor example because i actually do believe he is, but not because he plays in a worse team.

The thread has moved on, so i'm not going to play he said she said with you. This is my last post on this particular matter.

Peace!

m@cc@

Mr Alan wrote: »

it was a joke. I'm aware of how highly thought of Scholes is. In fact, Gerrard says he is the best player he has ever played alongside (granted, before Torres arrived on the scene).

Just on the mention of Stevie G, it's a shame that he hasn't a league or two under his belt and you could maybe mention him in this list.

eZe^

Archimedez wrote: »

No, Im definitely arguing C. Ronaldo. Why should I not be allowed include Ronaldo's goalscoring record? We're talking about the best players since Pele - he was all about the goals. You say Ronaldo's goal scoring record should not be considered - how does that differ from how good a passer Ronaldinho was? If anything, Ronaldo's goals were worth a hell of a lot more than 'Dinho being able to pass the ball with his back.

I'm not saying you can't include Ronaldo's goals, I'm saying you can't COMPARE their goal scoring records in a like for like manner, because they were two very very different players. Ronaldinho was more centred around being creative, whereas Ronaldo is relied on more to score goals. Even so, over their careers their goal scoring records aren't as different as you might imagine.

Ronaldo has 140 goals in 341 appearances.
Ronaldinho has 165 in 397 appearances.


Despite the fact that Ronaldinho was light years ahead of Cristiano in everything but goal scoring, it's impressive to see how close their actual scoring records are.


Silverware
Ronaldo;

Man Utd

Premier League (3): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008–09
FA Community Shield (1): 2007
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Ronaldinho;

FC Barcelona
Spanish Liga: 2005, 2006
Supercopa de España: 2005, 2006
UEFA Champions League: 2006


International
FIFA U-17 World Cup: 1997
Copa América: 1999
FIFA World Cup: 2002
FIFA Confederations Cup: 2005
2008 Summer Olympics: Bronze medal

Infact, looking at that I'd say Ronaldinho has a more impressive silverware cabinet, so the 'impressive while winning far more silverware' argument goes out the window.

Their individual awards are quite close too;

individual

Individual
UEFA Euro 2004 Team of the Tournament
FIFPro Special Young Player of the Year: 2004–05, 2005–06
Portuguese Footballer of the Year: 2006–07
UEFA Team of the Year: 2003–2004, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008-09
FIFPro World XI: 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
PFA Young Player of the Year: 2006–07
PFA Players' Player of the Year: 2006–07, 2007–08
PFA Fans' Player of the Year: 2006–07, 2007–08
PFA Premier League Team of the Year: 2005–06, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FWA Footballer of the Year: 2006–07, 2007–08
Premier League Player of the Season: 2006–07, 2007–08
Premier League Player of the Month: November 2006, December 2006, January 2008, March 2008
Premier League Golden Boot: 2007–08
Barclays Merit Award: 2007–08
European Golden Shoe: 2007–08
UEFA Club Forward of the Year: 2007–08
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year: 2007–08
FIFPro World Player of the Year: 2007–08
Ballon d'Or: 2008
FIFA World Player of the Year: 2008
FIFA Ferenc Puskás Award: 2009
Onze d'Or: 2008
Bravo Award: 2004
Ballon d'Or: 2009 Runner-up
World Soccer Player of the Year: 2008



Ronaldinho

Individual
FIFA Confederations Cup Top Scorer: 1999
FIFA Confederations Cup Golden Ball: 1999
Rio Grande do Sul State Championship Top Scorer: 1999
FIFA World Cup 2002 All-Star team: 2002
FIFA 100
Don Balón Award (Best Foreign Player in La Liga) : 2004, 2006
EFE Trophy (Best Ibero-American Player in La Liga): 2004
FIFA World Player of the Year: 2004, 2005
UEFA Club Best Forward: 2004-05
European Footballer of the Year: 2005
FIFPro World Player of the Year 2005, 2006
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year: 2005-06
UEFA Team of the Year: 2004, 2005, 2006
FIFPro World XI: 2005, 2006, 2007
Golden Foot: 2009



And all of the above isn't even why I think Ronaldinho was better. If you consistently watched Barca from 2004-2006 (he was still unbelievable in 2003 and 2007 btw) he was literally untouchable. Beating Henry (who played in a team that went unbeaten domestically, notching up like 30 goals and 20 assists in the process) to a WPOTY award, and it surprised nobody. His performance at Bernabeu in 2005 was one of the greatest in the history of a Clasico. He did things with the football that no other player has ever done, he made opposition players literally look like buffoons. As I said, I'm not articulating it well, but if you consistently watched him at Barca, you'd know what I mean.

And for the record, I also think C. Ronaldo, once he retires, will go down as a bigger legend than Ronaldinho, but he'll never have as much talent as the man. As I've said about a million times before, he did things with a football that nobody has ever done before, and that's why I think he is special. He was the undisputed king of football for that period, whereas Ronaldo always had a Messi or a Rooney who arguably challenged him. Seriously, if you have time in the future, just look at threads on here from the 2005/2006 season, you can see there was something extra special about the man.


It's an absolute travesty that he's wasted it all too, and a reason why Ronaldo's sheer determination will make him a more remembered player than fat old Gaucho...

Xavi6

Maldini and Baresi tbh

recylingbin

Any love for Seedorf?
Not the most enthralling of players. But superb at what he does.

(Obviously I know he's not one of the best ever, but he's better than a hell of alot of the players previously mentioned)

JJJJNR

Rooney is having the best season of his footballing career yes... Does he inspire like pele, could you some day see Rooney as a footballer with three world cups to his name...

NO

ambassador for football MR Wayne Rooney.... One of the most important people in the history of football.. does not compute.

So glad I turn dunphy off, our licence pays his wages.. WTF

I hear according to ED Leeds were in the champions league final 5 years ago..

recylingbin

JJJJNR wrote: »

Rooney is having the best season of his footballing career yes... Does he inspire like pele, could you some day see Rooney as a footballer with three world cups to his name...

NO

ambassador for football MR Wayne Rooney.... One of the most important people in the history of football.. does not compute.

So glad I turn dunphy off, our licence pays his wages.. WTF

I hear according to ED Leeds were in the champions league final 5 years ago..

he said semi on my tv.

m@cc@

recylingbin wrote: »

he said semi on my tv.

I read that as 'he had a semi on my tv'.

MisterAnarchy

Great post Eze,alot of great points.
As a fan of and regular viewer of Spanish football I'd agree that Ronaldinho in his prime was a better player than Ronaldo (C).
More of a playmaker than an out an out attacker but a joy to behold.
Not being nasty but alot of posters on boards seem to mostly watch the epl and their opinions on players playing in foreign leagues is limited to the Champions league (mostly when playing an English team ) and big International tournaments.

m@cc@

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Great post Eze,alot of great points.
As a fan of and regular viewer of Spanish football I'd agree that Ronaldinho in his prime was a better player than Ronaldo (C).
More of a playmaker than an out an out attacker but a joy to behold.

Ah jaysus, there was no need to quote that all.

Xavi6

m@cc@ wrote: »

I read that as 'he had a semi on my tv'.

Isn't that a James Blunt line?

eZe^

Also, apologies for essentially making that a stats debate, which is exactly what I didn't want to happen. As gay as it sounds, it was more about the feeling you get when watching certain players. When I watch Messi or Ronaldo, I know I'm watching a potential legend, players that possess the ability to do amazing things consistently. When I watch Ronaldinho, I thought I was watching something even more unique, he entertained the crowd as if it was a theatre, he put on a footballing show. That's why it's so sad to see how he wasted it all, and is now merely a flick and trick player, who occasionally uses his brilliant skill in a game to cut open the defense or score a nice goal.

m@cc@

eZe^ wrote: »

When I watch Ronaldinho, I thought I was watching something even more unique, he entertained the crowd as if it was a theatre, he put on a footballing show. That's why it's so sad to see how he wasted it all, and is now merely a flick and trick player, who occasionally uses his brilliant skill in a game to cut open the defense or score a nice goal.

My issue with him is that for 2 or 3 years, yes he was untouchable and the stuff he did with a ball, amazing. But since then, he has shown he has no love for the game and has been reduced to a performing seal. He would have been better off retiring than moving to Milan. That will always taint my view of him as regards to a 'legend'.

redout

Why is everyone barking on about goal scoring players ?

Scholes, Xavi, Zidane all geniuses.

IvySlayer

I'll say this for Dunphy, no other man can cause debates/riots from him. I try to ignore it as best as I can, but someone from work will bring it up and I will be involved.

As for the subject, Messi/Ronaldo/Rooney - their careers ain't over yet. Who knows, they could surpass Peles records. They've achieved quite a lot. This World Cup is going to be brillaint. :pac:

m@cc@

Xavi6 wrote: »

Isn't that a James Blunt line?

I'll take your word for it.

davyjose

eZe^ wrote: »

Also, apologies for essentially making that a stats debate, which is exactly what I didn't want to happen. As gay as it sounds, it was more about the feeling you get when watching certain players. When I watch Messi or Ronaldo, I know I'm watching a potential legend, players that possess the ability to do amazing things consistently. When I watch Ronaldinho, I thought I was watching something even more unique, he entertained the crowd as if it was a theatre, he put on a footballing show. That's why it's so sad to see how he wasted it all, and is now merely a flick and trick player, who occasionally uses his brilliant skill in a game to cut open the defense or score a nice goal.

I think people are being harsh on Ronaldinho. He looked very sharp at times last night, and skinned the united defense with some nice tricks at times (not just flash - but proper magic. At one point two defenders were between him and the goal. a split second later he was running towards the goal while they were left scratching their heads.). He scored. Could've had a few.

He might have lost something, but he hardly wasted his talent. when he was winning the CL, he was still a lazy beggar who could madden you. I just think it's harder for him, because that's what happens - people figure players like that out a bit. teams learn how to play against you. Yeah he's lost something, but he still looked good to me, and he wouldn't be the first great player to lose his touch, or a yard or two.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr Alan wrote: »

i love Bergkamp, probably my favourite ever non-liverpool player, but if you're talking about an exclusive list of the best player since Pele, he shouldn't be near it. If he is then it opens it up for the likes of gerrard, scholes, keane, pires, lampard etc.

I think that's unfair as Bergkamp was naturally gifted whereas I'm not sure the same can be said of the above great players. Not to the same extent anyway. His control of a ball was unbelievable. He was like a magician. I'm not sure if I've seen anyone in my lifetime come close to that so I'd include him on that basis.

Pele incidentally named Bergkamp and Keane on his list of the greatest ever players so the man himself rates them highly.

m@cc@

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Pele incidentally named Bergkamp and Keane on his list of the greatest ever players so the man himself rates them highly.

Pele's opinions vary according to what country he is speaking in at the time.

eZe^

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think that's unfair as Bergkamp was naturally gifted whereas I'm not sure the same can be said of the above great players. Not to the same extent anyway. His control of a ball was unbelievable. He was like a magician. I'm not sure if I've seen anyone in my lifetime come close to that so I'd include him on that basis.

Pele incidentally named Bergkamp and Keane on his list of the greatest ever players so the man himself rates them highly.

That's the same way I feel about Ronaldinho, so I understand your affection for Bergkamp completely.

mayordenis

I still remember a certain ronaldinho game where my friend and I couldn't talk to each other for several hours after it, we were both kind of in a trance.

Bodhisopha

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think that's unfair as Bergkamp was naturally gifted whereas I'm not sure the same can be said of the above great players. Not to the same extent anyway. His control of a ball was unbelievable. He was like a magician. I'm not sure if I've seen anyone in my lifetime come close to that so I'd include him on that basis.

Pele incidentally named Bergkamp and Keane on his list of the greatest ever players so the man himself rates them highly.

10) China 2002

Pele Prediction: China will qualify for the next round from their 2002 World Cup group.

Outcome: China finish bottom of Group C with no wins, no draws, no points, no goals, as well as -9 in their goal-difference column.

9) Spain 1998

Pele Prediction: Spain are favourites for the 1998 World Cup in France.

Outcome: Spain humiliatingly dumped out in the first round after losing to Nigeria, and drawing with Paraguay.



8) Colombia To Live American Dream
Pele Prediction: Colombia will win the 1994 World Cup in the USA.

Outcome: Colombia exit the competition in the first round, finishing bottom of their group. Their defender Andres Escobar is also tragically shot dead by an angry fan after Colombia return home.

7) Argentina, France & World Cup 2002

Pele Prediction: Argentina & France will both reach the final.

Outcome: Both countries eliminated in the first round, France without even scoring a goal.

6) Escape To Victory

Pele Prediction: During the famous film starring Sylvester Stallone and Michael Caine, Allies star Pele is brutally fouled in the first half by the Nazi opponents. The injured Brazilian claims there is no way he can continue and is carried off. The Allies are 4-0 down, and a recovery is deemed impossible.

Outcome: Pele returns in the second half and inspires his team to an improbable comeback, even scoring a stunning bicycle kick. Even in fiction, Pele's predictions go wrong.

5) Ronaldo Is Finished

Pele Prediction: Ronaldo will never play football again, and his career is over, following a serious injury for Milan in February 2008.

Outcome: Ronaldo returns in March 2009 for Corinthians, scoring 10 goals in his first 14 games to win the Campeonato Paulista. Rumoured to be on the verge of a national team recall.


4) Nii Lamptey – ‘The New Pele’

Pele Prediction: After starring in the 1991 Under-17 World Cup, which also featured Alessandro Del Piero, Pele proclaims Ghana youngster Lamptey as his successor, ‘The New Pele’.

Outcome: What happens next goes down in football infamy. Lamptey spectacularly fails to fulfil his talent, believing himself that he was cursed by dark forces. The midfielder shifts around clubs such as PSV, Aston Villa, Coventry, Venezia and Ankaragucu, without success, and endures tragedy in his personal life, as two of his children die.

3) Nicky Barmby - Up There With Zidane, Maldini & Ronaldo

Pele Prediction: Nicky Barmby will become a world class star.

Outcome: Nicky Barmby becomes nothing more than an average player, winning 23 England caps, and never even appearing in a World Cup.


2) Africa Will Rule

Pele Prediction: An African nation will win the World Cup before the year 2000.

Outcome: It is now 2009, and an African country has still yet to get past the quarter-final.

1) Brazil & World Cup 2002

Pele Prediction: Brazil won’t even get past the group stages.

Outcome: Brazil win the World Cup.

Peyton Manning

eZe^ wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't include Ronaldo's goals, I'm saying you can't COMPARE their goal scoring records in a like for like manner, because they were two very very different players. Ronaldinho was more centred around being creative, whereas Ronaldo is relied on more to score goals.

Thats BS. Ronaldo has just as much responsibility to be as creative as Ronaldinho did. He did this along with the amount of goals he scored. Its not his fault that Ronaldinho was less relied upon to score goals for his team.

And all of the above isn't even why I think Ronaldinho was better. If you consistently watched Barca from 2004-2006 (he was still unbelievable in 2003 and 2007 btw) he was literally untouchable.

As was Ronaldo 2007 - 2009, and again, I argue that his peak was much more impressive than Ronaldinho's.

Beating Henry (who played in a team that went unbeaten domestically, notching up like 30 goals and 20 assists in the process) to a WPOTY award, and it surprised nobody.

Again, I put forward that Ronaldo beating Messi for the 2008 award was equally as impressive. Take away Ronaldo, and Messi would have walked away with it.

His performance at Bernabeu in 2005 was one of the greatest in the history of a Clasico. He did things with the football that no other player has ever done, he made opposition players literally look like buffoons.

....against an awful Madrid team. Lets not forget Ronaldo has had his own share of big performances too. The Champions League final, for instance, where he gave Essien nightmares and got a goal for himself. Ronaldinho's own CL final was poor in comparison. Not to mention his performances against Arsenal, Roma, Inter etc.

As I said, I'm not articulating it well, but if you consistently watched him at Barca, you'd know what I mean.

I saw a lot of Barcelona during the Ronaldinho - I still rate Ronaldo higher. I will say the exact same thing as you regarding Ronaldo..... "if you consistently watched him at Unted, you'd know what I mean."

And for the record, I also think C. Ronaldo, once he retires, will go down as a bigger legend than Ronaldinho, but he'll never have as much talent as the man. As I've said about a million times before, he did things with a football that nobody has ever done before, and that's why I think he is special.

You cant just say that and expect me to take it as gospel. Ronaldo is equally as talented with a football as Ronaldinho was. Dont let the fact that Ronaldinho did it with a smile on his face fool you - Ronaldo did it with steely determination in his.

He was the undisputed king of football for that period, whereas Ronaldo always had a Messi or a Rooney who arguably challenged him.

Cristiano got a higher percentage of votes in the Ballon D'or up against the likes of Messi, Rooney and Kaka than Ronaldinho did up against Shevchenko, Deco and Lampard. I think you'll agree that Ronaldo's competition was also more fierce than Ronaldinhos.[/quote]

Seriously, if you have time in the future, just look at threads on here from the 2005/2006 season, you can see there was something extra special about the man.

If we're comparing whats been said on Boards as a mark of achievement - Mr. Alan thinks Ronaldo, a former United player, is one of the best of all time. 'Nuff said.

It's an absolute travesty that he's wasted it all too, and a reason why Ronaldo's sheer determination will make him a more remembered player than fat old Gaucho...

This should also be considered. Ronaldo has a far greater hunger for the game, and it would take someone with the most vivid of imaginations to see him going down the same path as Ronaldinho. Ronaldo has the hunger to play at his peak for 4 seasons so far, god knows how many more. Ronaldinho couldn't hack it.

Again, this is all just my opinion, so dont take my determined arguing with you personal

Sir Gallagher

Has anybody mentioned Dalglish yet?