Functional Screening - Overhead Squat

Economic

Has anybody here ever used the over head squat as a functional screen?

How do you distinguish a weakness from a tightness?

What has been your experiences with it in general?

ewoods

Hi got a screening done by Jason a TPI golf fitness instructor in Ennis the other day and one of the tests was over head deep squat. He was able to tell me I had mobility issues in different area's they use it as one of 12 test hope this helps a bit.

mushykeogh

I use it a lot as a primary test, you can a few more tests after it to follow up on what you have found.
In the OH squat, If the arms are falling forward or the elbows bending would generally mean tight pecs and lats and weak opposing muscles of the back.

If theres excessive forward lean of the torso you could be looking at tight hip flexors, if the knees buckle in possible tight adductors and a weak glute medius. Lack of depth, possible lower cross syndrome.

Theres lots more but its early!, i find it very good but sometimes if someone is unfamiliar with the movement they may look like they have certain issues but they dont, they just havent got the technique right.
What ever i find in the oh squat determines what test id do next, so id often follow up with the thomas test, check the lats. pecs, shoulder rotators, check the glutes for flexibility and strength and so on. Id often but it into a circuit or as part of a dynamic warm up with the kids, tell them its active rest and to take there time and you can see who's been stretching and who hasnt!
I find that the more people perform the test the better they get so its a great mobility one near the end of a warm up if they focus on getting good depth and maintaining good posture. I hope that helps. ciaran

P.S. the more you do it, the better your assessment gets, at the start i couldnt notice a lot of things, so it requires practice. If you video someone front and side you can spend a lot more time viewing it.

Transform

to be honest all of the flexibility issues you just mentioned (i am familiar with using the OH squat as an assessment tool) are problems i would see with almost all new clients to some extent i.e. tight chest/shoulders, glutes, hip flexors etc

also i have to agree on the fact that some people are just not familiar to the movement.

I prefer lying the client on the floor/bench and checking it all manually as i can see it all quicker and feel it by moving them myself.

overall EVERYONE needs to stretch and foam roll way more and some people need it much more in their specific areas

J-Fit

Transform wrote: »

overall EVERYONE needs to stretch and foam roll way more and some people need it much more in their specific areas

You're right but stretching and rolling won't always fix a faulty motor pattern and it's often necessary to have a person go through the corrective motions to groove the lost pattern. i.e. if somebody rocks up on the balls of their feet when they squat, foam rolling will help with tissue length and quality but corrective exercise will contribute to relearning of the faulty pattern.

To answer the original question, weakness and tightness should be easily identifiable. Think about it, if they are tight they will not be able to assume the position. It's difficult to talk about weakness on a 1 rep body weight squat so what you should be asking is how to distinguish between immobility and instability. Lie down on your back and bring your knees into your chest in a squating motion. If you can do this, the problem is likely stability issues and you should work on increasing core stability. As someone rightly pointed out before, this ignores ankle flexibility but it is still the accepted norm and if you have narrowed the problem down to core stability or ankle flexibility, well, work on both and watch the results!

Transform

J-Fit wrote: »

You're right but stretching and rolling won't always fix a faulty motor pattern and it's often necessary to have a person go through the corrective motions to groove the lost pattern. i.e. if somebody rocks up on the balls of their feet when they squat, foam rolling will help with tissue length and quality but corrective exercise will contribute to relearning of the faulty pattern.

To answer the original question, weakness and tightness should be easily identifiable. Think about it, if they are tight they will not be able to assume the position. It's difficult to talk about weakness on a 1 rep body weight squat so what you should be asking is how to distinguish between immobility and instability. Lie down on your back and bring your knees into your chest in a squating motion. If you can do this, the problem is likely stability issues and you should work on increasing core stability. As someone rightly pointed out before, this ignores ankle flexibility but it is still the accepted norm and if you have narrowed the problem down to core stability or ankle flexibility, well, work on both and watch the results!

come on man i have NEVER found it hard to tell any client of any age and ability to sit into a squat and put the weight back on the heels. Thats just basic good coaching and having trained a couple hundred clients to know what looks right and wrong

I see more faulty motor patterns in the shoulders rather than the lower body as everyone squats every day but at times excessively using the wrong muscles. Lower body stuff IMO is far easier fixed with sorting flexibility/myofacial release etc as opposed to shoudler problems which can be much more tricky.

I do agree that most people can have a mix of stability and flexibility issues but i see wayyyyyy more flexibility issues than stability

J-Fit

Transform wrote: »

come on man i have NEVER found it hard to tell any client of any age and ability to sit into a squat and put the weight back on the heels. Thats just basic good coaching and having trained a couple hundred clients to know what looks right and wrong

I see more faulty motor patterns in the shoulders rather than the lower body as everyone squats every day but at times excessively using the wrong muscles. Lower body stuff IMO is far easier fixed with sorting flexibility/myofacial release etc as opposed to shoudler problems which can be much more tricky.

I do agree that most people can have a mix of stability and flexibility issues but i see wayyyyyy more flexibility issues than stability

Thats fine. Your speaking from your experience and I respect that fact. My experience says differently. Many people I see do not squat every day - they flop down in chairs, they hold on to something when they go to sit on the toilet etc. They lack the motor control to transfer the weight through the mid-foot and the heel and do not feel in any way secure in doing so. If good coaching constitutes just "telling" a client to put the weight through the heels, well....I don't know what to say to that one.

You can tell a person to do something all you want, if they lack the basic mobility and stability to do it, I'm not saying they won't do it, but they won't do it properly. For example, if I tell a person with mobility issues to pick up something off the ground, if they haven't got the ability to squat by bending at the knees, they will bend at the lumbar spine. By hook or by crook, they are picking that object off the ground and they will bend at the lumbar spine if so required.

I'm giving details of a different experience here. I'd appreciate if you'd respect that, as I have your opinion. If we all used the same methods to get to a certain point we would never discover the best way of doing so. Diversity is what drives the industry forward.

Transform

J-Fit wrote: »

Thats fine. Your speaking from your experience and I respect that fact. My experience says differently. Many people I see do not squat every day - they flop down in chairs, they hold on to something when they go to sit on the toilet etc. They lack the motor control to transfer the weight through the mid-foot and the heel and do not feel in any way secure in doing so. If good coaching constitutes just "telling" a client to put the weight through the heels, well....I don't know what to say to that one.

You can tell a person to do something all you want, if they lack the basic mobility and stability to do it, I'm not saying they won't do it, but they won't do it properly. For example, if I tell a person with mobility issues to pick up something off the ground, if they haven't got the ability to squat by bending at the knees, they will bend at the lumbar spine. By hook or by crook, they are picking that object off the ground and they will bend at the lumbar spine if so required.

I'm giving details of a different experience here. I'd appreciate if you'd respect that, as I have your opinion. If we all used the same methods to get to a certain point we would never discover the best way of doing so. Diversity is what drives the industry forward.

come on get down off your high horse there.

All i am saying is that teaching this is not that hard and yes this can be done through a number of methods.

Diversity comes with the varying clients that i see and the solution can be slightly different from one client to the next. In the past 2 hours i have seen a 51yr old client for her second session (4-5stone overweight), has never done any exercise and a former model who is in good shape after a few months training BOTH can squat well yet the overall approach is the same with each client and each have minor issues but like you said the initial set up can be different.

i only know what i know from working with hundreds of clients week in week out for years so after a while you see what works and what needs to be changed quickly rather than spending ages with someone who is not ready for that movement yet - the deadlift is a perfect example.

Correctly exercise will NOT teach a faulty patter it will teach the right pattern when done well

I respect all of your comments and its just a chat thats all nothing more

Barry.Oglesby

Like a lot of coaches, I've used it and now don't use it anymore. I find out a lot more viewing people doing their programmed exercises than from any assesment. Most people exhibit some tightnesses.

I would also caution against personal trainers using anything other than the most rudimentary of flexibility tests. Physiotherapists do 7 years in college for a reason, and the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies. The OH squat is a good test but thinking you can diagnose things from it is not. Stretching tightnesses is good, going beyond your bailwick is not. There's a battery of tests that in theory I could do on people having seen them, done them, read about them and had them done to me, but these things are best done by professionals.

Also of all the exercises I've only seen Will tell people not to do one exercise until they've sorted their issues out, squatting.

J-Fit

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Like a lot of coaches, I've used it and now don't use it anymore. I find out a lot more viewing people doing their programmed exercises than from any assesment. Most people exhibit some tightnesses.

I would also caution against personal trainers using anything other than the most rudimentary of flexibility tests. Physiotherapists do 7 years in college for a reason, and the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies. The OH squat is a good test but thinking you can diagnose things from it is not. Stretching tightnesses is good, going beyond your bailwick is not. There's a battery of tests that in theory I could do on people having seen them, done them, read about them and had them done to me, but these things are best done by professionals.

Also of all the exercises I've only seen Will tell people not to do one exercise until they've sorted their issues out, squatting.

Good point but the objective is not necessarily to diagnose things. It's to correct faulty or lost motor patterns. It's like strength coaching, we train movements, not muscles. I've had fantastic results with the movement screen that I otherwise would not have achieved and I never diagnosed a thing. (but I did see things worth diagnosing, there's a difference!) I also agree screening isn't 100% necessary for programming and that training itslef serves as a screening process.

Economic

Thanks for the replies guys. You all seem very qualified to answer my questions so its great of you to reply, I particulary like Barry's points.

This is a something I have in my head and maybe you could clarify it, even taken the fact that it is a general statement, Men suffer from tightness more so than weaknesses and vicea versa for women.