Ubisoft's New DRM (fail)

ShadowHearth

omfg you have to be constantly online to play single player game?!!?! are they fecking mad?!

so example: i am moving soon to a new house, and i wount have internet connection for awile, i need time to sort it out. So if i had AC2 i wouldnt be able to play it at all?!!?!?!?!!

i know loads of people who dont have internet connection but love to play single player games .....

i wount buy anything from ubisoft now... or if i will, i will just pirate it( which i havent done for 6 years! ).

sarumite

wayne040576 wrote: »

They already use it as an excuse for delaying the pc release of games.
We have ubisoft delaying the pc version of ACII, Capcom delay their titles. Street fighter 4 was a few months late getting released even though the game was developed on the pc.

Since the profit margins on PC games are lower compared to consoles it wouldn't surprise me if they devote fewer resources to developing a game on the PC platform.

sarumite

ShadowHearth wrote: »

omfg you have to be constantly online to play single player game?!!?! are they fecking mad?!

so example: i am moving soon to a new house, and i wount have internet connection for awile, i need time to sort it out. So if i had AC2 i wouldnt be able to play it at all?!!?!?!?!!

i know loads of people who dont have internet connection but love to play single player games .....

i wount buy anything from ubisoft now... or if i will, i will just pirate it( which i havent done for 6 years! ).

even if you do have internet, you shouldnt need it for a single player game...what if I am waiting in an airport or in a hotel on work...

Auvers

ShadowHearth

sarumite wrote: »

even if you do have internet, you shouldnt need it for a single player game...what if I am waiting in an airport or in a hotel on work...

true,its bullcrap...good old times.... pop in fallout2 and play it away.....

soon you will have to give your DNA to be able to play solitare with DRM....

Ri_Nollaig

Peglegged wrote: »

...

I actually have a fairly large DVD collection, including a few blu rays now. But as I found it so much easier to watch films from the 360 with a HDD connected I ended up just downloading again and putting them on it.
For example, I have that massive futurama collection boxset, But its just too much effort to actually swap the 15 disks and skip all the crap at the start, like the menus are just annoying.
Fighting piracy is one thing, but adding crap like this will probably make it worse! you really have to wonder what the dicussion was like during the meeting when they came up with this.

I would also assume its only the high end of the management who insist on this, the actual people who created the game know full well its a joke.

Fnz

sarumite wrote: »

I agree. Although what are they supposed to do...without DRM games are pirated to hell, with DRM games are being pirated to hell.

As illustrated by Peglegged's post - make the experience better for those that don't pirate than it is for those that do.

Accept that there will always be piracy and concentrate on super-serving your paying customers. Make it so that Joe Public gives a damn whether or not your products are successful. If you can foster a community around your brand you could even win over some of those pirates.

Maximilian

sarumite wrote: »

Since the profit margins on PC games are lower compared to consoles it wouldn't surprise me if they devote fewer resources to developing a game on the PC platform.

Obviously the margins on selling PC games digitally, with no manufacturing costs, retail cut, distributer's cut, console platform holder's fee etc. is lower than with console games.

sarumite

Fnz wrote: »

As illustrated by Peglegged's post - make the experience better for those that don't pirate than it is for those that do.

.

You mean like very limited DRM....say what Bioware put on Dragon age....and people still pirtate. Put no DRM and people will pirate. Although peglegged is obviosly exaggerated to show the genuine problems, the simple fact is that piracy is rampant on the PC and its not always because "its easier" or "less hassle" than the retail version....from my limited experience, in most case it is because people want the game but figure if they can pirate it, why bother paying for it.

sarumite

Maximilian wrote: »

Obviously the margins on selling PC games digitally, with no manufacturing costs, retail cut, distributer's cut, console platform holder's fee etc. is lower than with console games.

PC retail prices are usually lower than console game prices, so those factors are usually represented in the pricing. As en example. on play.com Bioshock 2 is €52 for xbox 360 but only €32 for PC.

gizmo

Quite right sarumite, it goes a little something like this.

Include no DRM -> see your product pirated.
Include DRM -> observe outrage from the internet...see your product pirated
Reduce the price of the PC version considerably -> see your product pirated
Try to include more incentives for people to buy the game new at retail -> see your product AND the incentives pirated

And then people wonder why publishers are so reluctant to invest in PC titles? Of course they know they'll never put a stop to piracy with measures like this but as I said before, I can see where they're coming from in at least trying to delay it or reduce it in some manner. It's also amusing when people take the "well **** you Mr. Publisher Man, I don't like that DRM so I'm going to pirate this game", a person who is then added to the statistic of people pirating games thus increasing the publishers resolve. :rolleyes:

Genghiz Cohen

I don't mind waiting a month for a game to come out on PC, give a nice amount of time for Average Joes to review it.

Maximilian

sarumite wrote: »

PC retail prices are usually lower than console game prices, so those factors are usually represented in the pricing. As en example. on play.com Bioshock 2 is €52 for xbox 360 but only €32 for PC.

My point was that PC games sales are going one way - digital. Sales on Steam alone more than double every year or so they claim. The same no doubt is the case for Direct2Drive or whoever. The margins must be huge compared with retail, since it's just bandwidth and whatever Steam or whoever charge. You say the opposite is the case; I think you are completely wrong.

It makes sense to me because I have bought maybe one boxed game at retail in maybe two years. As far as I'm concerned, traditional retail is dead as far as PC games go. The shrinking shelf space neither surprises nor alarms me. The margins on console games have to be a lot lower. The volumes of course are much higher.

Personally I think pricing is the major driving factor for piracy (along with differing release dates between Europe & the USA). When the prices are sensible, most people will buy rather than pirate. I think that's why the Steam sales were such a success. I think everyone I know on my Steam friends list bought at least one game last December during the Steam sale. To those who have pirated games, if the price of a new AAA game were say, 20 euro, would you have bought rather than pirated? I suspect many would answer yes.

Fnz

sarumite wrote: »

You mean like very limited DRM....say what Bioware put on Dragon age....and people still pirtate. Put no DRM and people will pirate. Although peglegged is obviosly exaggerated to show the genuine problems, the simple fact is that piracy is rampant on the PC and its not always because "its easier" or "less hassle" than the retail version....from my limited experience, in most case it is because people want the game but figure if they can pirate it, why bother paying for it.

I wasn't arguing that piracy isn't a problem. I was offering suggestions to help increase sales on the platform. "Limited DRM" on Dragon Age hardly means that buying a legitimate copy of the game is more attractive than pirating it.

Services like Steam Cloud add value to the product being sold. Same thing with being able to access game saves from any PC by logging into your account. It would be beneficial, in the fight against piracy, for companies to find new creative ways to build services like these around their games.

gizmo wrote: »

Quite right sarumite, it goes a little something like this.

Include no DRM -> see your product pirated.
Include DRM -> observe outrage from the internet...see your product pirated
Reduce the price of the PC version considerably -> see your product pirated
Try to include more incentives for people to buy the game new at retail -> see your product AND the incentives pirated

And then people wonder why publishers are so reluctant to invest in PC titles? Of course they know they'll never put a stop to piracy with measures like this but as I said before, I can see where they're coming from in at least trying to delay it or reduce it in some manner. It's also amusing when people take the "well **** you Mr. Publisher Man, I don't like that DRM so I'm going to pirate this game", a person who is then added to the statistic of people pirating games thus increasing the publishers resolve. :rolleyes:

More sad than funny if people are genuinely being pushed away from legitimate copies due to draconian DRM. Also sad if they acknowledge it's not going to stop piracy but continue annoying legitimate customers with the unintended consequences that can arise. Strange if, as you suggest, they find DRM reduces piracy as all it takes is one cracked copy to appear on the torrent sites for everyone to be able to acquire it.

I think the stick method is doomed to failure, more work should be put into the carrot method.

sarumite

Maximilian wrote: »

My point was that PC games sales are going one way - digital. Sales on Steam alone more than double every year or so they claim. The same no doubt is the case for Direct2Drive or whoever. The margins must be huge compared with retail, since it's just bandwidth and whatever Steam or whoever charge. You say the opposite is the case; I think you are completely wrong.

It makes sense to me because I have bought maybe one boxed game at retail in maybe two years. As far as I'm concerned, traditional retail is dead as far as PC games go. The shrinking shelf space neither surprises nor alarms me. The margins on console games have to be a lot lower. The volumes of course are much higher.

Personally I think pricing is the major driving factor for piracy (along with differing release dates between Europe & the USA). When the prices are sensible, most people will buy rather than pirate. I think that's why the Steam sales were such a success. I think everyone I know on my Steam friends list bought at least one game last December during the Steam sale. To those who have pirated games, if the price of a new AAA game were say, 20 euro, would you have bought rather than pirated? I suspect many would answer yes.

I agree with you about steam...although it should be noted that Steam is a DRM platform. My point was that when games companies put games out without DRM, they are pirated. Ubisofts approach to DRM, as I mentioned earlier, is stupid however Valves approach to DRM is much smarter....but both are selling games using some sort of DRM.

Dragon age is €20 on Play....and my friend still pirated it.

sarumite

Fnz wrote: »

I wasn't arguing that piracy isn't a problem. I was offering suggestions to help increase sales on the platform. "Limited DRM" on Dragon Age hardly means that buying a legitimate copy of the game is more attractive than pirating it.
t

The dragon age DRM requires a one time only basic disk check that does not require onine authentication....pirating it means you have to find the torrent, wait for it to be downloaded, replace the original files with the cracked files etc.....its a lot more work to pirate it....although it is more attractive to pirate coz it doesnt cost you any money.

Cuddlesworth

sarumite wrote: »

I agree with you about steam...although it should be noted that Steam is a DRM platform. My point was that when games companies put games out without DRM, they are pirated. Ubisofts approach to DRM, as I mentioned earlier, is stupid however Valves approach to DRM is much smarter....but both are selling games using some sort of DRM.

Dragon age is €20 on Play....and my friend still pirated it.

But its a DRM which offers me a huge number of advantages(download at any time, automated patching, no cd keys, social networking integrated into games) which none of the other DRM's do. Everybody I know who has Steam is 100% happy with it.

Fnz

sarumite wrote: »

The dragon age DRM requires a one time only basic disk check that does not require onine authentication....pirating it means you have to find the torrent, wait for it to be downloaded, replace the original files with the cracked files etc.....its a lot more work to pirate it....although it is more attractive to pirate coz it doesnt cost you any money.

Why are you still quoting me? Are we disagreeing somewhere?

Not to be rude but, in my posts, I do expound on the sentence, or two, you quote.

Overheal

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

But its a DRM which offers me a huge number of advantages(download at any time, automated patching, no cd keys, social networking integrated into games) which none of the other DRM's do. Everybody I know who has Steam is 100% happy with it.

Yeah but Steam isnt even as Anal Retentive as Ubisoft's new BS. Steam contacts the Auth Server Once at Launch afaik, or Not at All if you're in Offline Mode.

Only rarely will you get booted out of TF2 for something when the Stat Server crashes, but this is rare enough where I give 2 ****s, and it doesnt kick me out of the program or anything, I just rejoin the match I was in.

I think I'd rather Buy the Game then download a cracked version. Which is about what I had to do when my copy of Call of Duty got annihilated by the dog. Didnt get the CD Key though!

cherryghost

gizmo wrote: »

Reduce the price of the PC version considerably -> see your product pirated

PC versions are cheaper because theres no licencing fee. Windows is an open platform, unlike consoles.

Things like GFWL and DRM give PC gaming a sense of a closed platform, but people will always want things the best way anyways, so... yarrr pirate.

gizmo

Maximilian wrote: »

It makes sense to me because I have bought maybe one boxed game at retail in maybe two years. As far as I'm concerned, traditional retail is dead as far as PC games go. The shrinking shelf space neither surprises nor alarms me. The margins on console games have to be a lot lower. The volumes of course are much higher.

Yes and no. While I do still use Game for a lot of Day 1 purchases and the odd bargain, I do most of my shopping via Play and ShopTo. I'm odd though, I prefer having a boxed copy just sitting there looking nice on my shelf. On the other hand, for some online orientated games such as TF2 and indie games, I love having them on Steam ready to grab/re-grab when required. As it stands I think this two tier system works quite nicely, both for people like me and those who want access to all of these products digitally.

Maximilian wrote: »

Personally I think pricing is the major driving factor for piracy (along with differing release dates between Europe & the USA). When the prices are sensible, most people will buy rather than pirate. I think that's why the Steam sales were such a success. I think everyone I know on my Steam friends list bought at least one game last December during the Steam sale. To those who have pirated games, if the price of a new AAA game were say, 20 euro, would you have bought rather than pirated? I suspect many would answer yes.

Bearing in mind the development costs for most AAA games, the prices of these titles are sensible. Doubly so when you factor in the price per hour of entertainment you get from them compared to other traditional media. The real problem here is that people are cheap bastards who don't want to pay for stuff. You can blame DRM, you can blame the cost and you can blame the instant-gratification nonsense but at the end of the day the problem is with people. Want proof? Look at the sheer number of fantastic indie/cheap games that are pirated. Braid, Portal and hell, even our very own Irish developed VVVVVV has seen piracy. Now, please defend that.

As for the Steam sales, yes they were fantastic but they were selling games well below cost price and the simple fact is you couldn't develop a polished and complete game and expect to survive selling them at that price.

cherryghost wrote: »

PC versions are cheaper because theres no licencing fee. Windows is an open platform, unlike consoles.

While this is true, it does not equate to the discounts most retailers are making on PC games compared to their console brethren.

Maximilian

gizmo wrote: »

Yes and no. While I do still use Game for a lot of Day 1 purchases and the odd bargain, I do most of my shopping via Play and ShopTo. I'm odd though, I prefer having a boxed copy just sitting there looking nice on my shelf. On the other hand, for some online orientated games such as TF2 and indie games, I love having them on Steam ready to grab/re-grab when required. As it stands I think this two tier system works quite nicely, both for people like me and those who want access to all of these products digitally.

Can't argue with that - lot's of people feel that way but attitudes are shifting fast.

gizmo wrote: »

Bearing in mind the development costs for most AAA games, the prices of these titles are sensible. Doubly so when you factor in the price per hour of entertainment you get from them compared to other traditional media. The real problem here is that people are cheap bastards who don't want to pay for stuff. You can blame DRM, you can blame the cost and you can blame the instant-gratification nonsense but at the end of the day the problem is with people. Want proof? Look at the sheer number of fantastic indie/cheap games that are pirated. Braid, Portal and hell, even our very own Irish developed VVVVVV has seen piracy. Now, please defend that.

As for the Steam sales, yes they were fantastic but they were selling games well below cost price and the simple fact is you couldn't develop a polished and complete game and expect to survive selling them at that price.


While this is true, it does not equate to the discounts most retailers are making on PC games compared to their console brethren.

I don't agree with this at all. When you consider that costs of selling are much lower for digital distribution, then a developer can make the same profit margin by selling at a lower price. They don't though and I suppose one of the reasons is that retailers would throw their toys out of the pram.I just don't accept that charging full price on that basis is either fair or justified. Something I think even iTunes realised when they used to charge the same as retail for songs. It's basic economics surely, the lower the price the higher the demand. These days though, you do see price drops on Steam and what not much sooner than used to be the case. I think if they were to sell a new game at E20 instead of E50 they would actually sell more, with less piracy and end up making more money. That's something Steam themselves have more or less confirmed. They drop the price on something and sales rocket.

Was E50 for Left4Dead value for money? Absolutely. Was the same price for Operation Failpoint value? Categorically no. As far as the latter goes, would I have felt as annoyed if it had cost E20? Nope. The matter of value for money is separate and pretty subjective.

Having said that, there has always been piracy and you just can't completely eliminate it. All you can do is try to negate the reasons people have for engaging in it, not give them more. It's precisely that reasoning that makes Ubisoft's DRM such a complete load of fail.

gizmo

Maximilian wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all. When you consider that costs of selling are much lower for digital distribution, then a developer can make the same profit margin by selling at a lower price.

Just so we're clear here, yes I agree digitally distributed games should be cheaper than retail. That being said it is the amount which is questionable, while there is obviously a saving by cutting out the middle man, physical distribution of boxed copies and of course DVD/manual costs you do need to factor in the costs of setting up the digital distribution infrastructure as well as the associated bandwidth costs. Unfortunately the latter costs are known only to the publishers and as such we're in the unfortunate position where we're going to have to wait until DD gains enough ground to supersede boxed copies, should that day ever come of course, until we see some real savings between the two versions.

Maximilian wrote: »

They don't though and I suppose one of the reasons is that retailers would throw their toys out of the pram.

This I wouldn't agree with. If it were true then publishers would not be going out of their way to eliminate second hand sales through efforts like Ubi and EA.

Maximilian wrote: »

I think if they were to sell a new game at E20 instead of E50 they would actually sell more, with less piracy and end up making more money. That's something Steam themselves have more or less confirmed. They drop the price on something and sales rocket.

Lowering the price to such a degree would be a massive risk to them however. What if the move failed and significant losses were incurred? The volatility of the games industry is well known and if losses were incurred you can bet that there would be job losses involved at, more than likely anyway, the developer level.

Maximilian wrote: »

Was E50 for Left4Dead value for money? Absolutely. Was the same price for Operation Failpoint value? Categorically no. As far as the latter goes, would I have felt as annoyed if it had cost E20? Nope. The matter of value for money is separate and pretty subjective.

The same can be said for any media however you don't see prices for terrible movies being lower than the usual blockbuster ones. On top of this you also need to realise that despite the lukewarm reaction to the likes of of OpFlash, it still cost a hell of a lot of money to develop so there was no way it could be sold at a reduced price from launch.

Maximilian wrote: »

Having said that, there has always been piracy and you just can't completely eliminate it. All you can do is try to negate the reasons people have for engaging in it, not give them more. It's precisely that reasoning that makes Ubisoft's DRM such a complete load of fail.

This is only true assuming there is a state where people will stop pirating. As I said earlier, since we're seeing games ranging from €5 to €60 being pirated, whether distributed digitally or in boxed copy form and whether they're amazing or not, I don't think that point exists to the level where publishers or indeed anyone with common sense will be satisfied.

cherryghost

sure retail markup on most games is 60-70% after VAT :rolleyes:

gizmo

cherryghost wrote: »

sure retail markup on most games is 60-70% after VAT :rolleyes:

Absolute rubbish. It's because of this nonsense that people are able to justify pirating games to themselves in order to get one back at "the man". :rolleyes:

cherryghost

gizmo wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. It's because of this nonsense that people are able to justify pirating games to themselves in order to get one back at "the man". :rolleyes:

its not absolute rubbish. i was assistant manager in the software zone in smyths for a while. I know the mark ups on games like the back of my hand.

Tell me why you think its absolute rubbish?


Also, I wasnt justifying myself in order to pirate any games. I purchase my games like most other folk.

gizmo

Not sure about these days but I never remember Smyths being the bastion for reasonably priced games. Then again when you say retail I guess a distinction should be made between online and brick n' mortar stores, the latter of which have always added on a couple of quid.

That being said, 60-70% is excessive and is probably more representative of the discount Smyths are getting at the wholesale level than anything else. My point was, however, that what you said can be construed as games being overpriced compared to their development costs. If this isn't what you were implying then my apologies.

cherryghost

gizmo wrote: »

My point was, however, that what you said can be construed as games being overpriced compared to their development costs. If this isn't what you were implying then my apologies.

nah giz, it wasnt, i can see why you assumed though, sorry for that.

I think games are reasonably priced anyways. The amount of time spent on a game for 50 quid or so seems like a bargain really, considering you could spend twice that on a saturday night :pac:

Cuddlesworth

gizmo wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. It's because of this nonsense that people are able to justify pirating games to themselves in order to get one back at "the man". :rolleyes:

That's quite close to the markup of most goods sold at retail.

yoyo

Found this, not sure if its been posted already, sums up the "wonders" of DRM in a nutshell :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nick