RTE on Sky Free-To-View : Could it happen ?

Mr McBoatface

Hi Folks ,

With the endless delays with roll-out of a Irish DTT service I was wondering if Sky where to introduce an Ireland only Free-To-View card like the ones available in the UK would you avail of it ? And does anybody know of any legal obstacles to them introducing such a card here in Ireland ?

By Free-To-View I mean the Irish channels will remain encrypted but a viewing card would be sold to the customer for a once off fee 30 Euro or so , the card would then decrypt the Irish channels for viewing to people in Ireland only.

I'd personal get such a card where one to be introduced by Sky at least then RTE would be available to most of the country for a minimal fee.

I think for Sky it would also be a win win situation as they currently don't charge for the Irish channels and if this approach was adopted they might get extra customers at a later stage converting from Free-To-View to pay packages.

John mac

Nope. never happen .

John mac

jobyrne30 wrote: »

I think for Sky it would also be a win win situation as the currently don't charge for the Irish channels

They do charge as you cant get them on their own! a min sub of ~€20 per month is required.

Mr McBoatface

Do you know of any particular commercial or legal reason why not ?

Mr McBoatface

John mac wrote: »

They do charge as you cant get them on their own! a min sub of ~€20 per month is required.

That's a fair comment but Sky describe the channels as bonus channels for taking out a sub , the same way a Fiver and Five USA are bonus channels. I'm not a Sky fan and don't have a Sky sub but I would get a free-to-view card if the Irish channels where on it.

The_Conductor

jobyrne30 wrote: »

That's a fair comment but Sky describe the channels as bonus channels for taking out a sub , the same way a Fiver and Five USA are bonus channels. I'm not a Sky fan and don't have a Sky sub but I would get a free-to-view card if the Irish channels where on it.

Ditto- I'd get an Irish Free-to-view card in a heartbeat if one was available. I'm using HD Freesat at the moment, along with analogue terrestrial- and for all intensive purposes I don't have an RTE/TG4/TV3 reception (I'm sure I'm the same as thousands around the country).

If someone wants to start a petition- I'd be more than happy to sign it.......

Mr McBoatface

Let's see how this thread runs and you never know I might just start one

Tony

It would not be in sky's interest for this to happen so unless they are forced to implement it I dont see it happening. Another platform such as the one fortec are working on might be interesting though. I've read some comments over on digital spy about this.

Mr McBoatface

Thanks for the input Tony. I've never been able to understand why the RTE/Government didn't make it a condition of allowing Sky to carry RTE. At the time when they where new to the Irish market I'm sure Sky would have agreed to RTE Free-To-View just to make inroads here.

It might be in Sky's interests to do so now, It could kill pay DTT and a potential if unlikely competitor before it even got started. That said pay DTT might be dead as it is.

Tony

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Thanks for the input Tony. I've never been able to understand why the RTE/Government didn't make it a condition of allowing Sky to carry RTE. At the time when they where new to the Irish market I'm sure Sky would have agreed to RTE Free-To-View just to make inroads here.

It might be in Sky's interests to do so now, It could kill pay DTT and a potential if unlikely competitor before it even got started. That said pay DTT might be dead as it is.

Absolutely right on both points. When RTe joined sky they just jumped at the chance of free carriage without thinking of the long term implications. If I understand correctly there is a "must carry" clause now in the latest broadcasting bill. Interesting discussion on this over in the terrestrial forum.

120_Minutes

I'd rather remove rte from my epg altogether and not pay a tv licence.

Minstrel27

120_Minutes wrote: »

I'd rather remove rte from my epg altogether and not pay a tv licence.

You are not paying a licence to view RTÉ.

Mayo Exile

If a dedicated FTV card system for the Irish channels won't happen, at least what should happen is that an Irish Sky card should continue to receive these channels even when a subscriber finishes with Sky's pay channels.

Minstrel27

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If a dedicated FTV card system for the Irish channels won't happen, at least what should happen is that an Irish Sky card should continue to receive these channels even when a subscriber finishes with Sky's pay channels.

I agree 100%. It is a ridiculous situation that RTÉ have found themselves in. Hopefully the viewer benefits when the contract is up.

Tony

Again this would not be in sky's interest so they will not allow this unless forced to do so.

The_Conductor

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If a dedicated FTV card system for the Irish channels won't happen, at least what should happen is that an Irish Sky card should continue to receive these channels even when a subscriber finishes with Sky's pay channels.

I imagine you'd all of a sudden discover a remarkable resale market for 2nd hand cards in Portugal/Spain

homelink

Tony wrote: »

Again this would not be in sky's interest so they will not allow this unless forced to do so.

In my opinion it would be in sky's interest to give an ftv option for Ireland as it would indeed kill off any subscription dtt service (if we ever get one).Also it opens up another market for people who will pay a one off fee (for box & card) but don't want a subscription service.The main issues for Sky I think would be regulatory & an epg for Ireland only. I don't think they could put English channels on an Irish FTV system without paying the Broadcasters.

Tony

homelink wrote: »

In my opinion it would be in sky's interest to give an ftv option for Ireland as it would indeed kill off any subscription dtt service

Sky would see it as being detrimental to their subscription service.

MACHEAD

smccarrick wrote: »

I imagine you'd all of a sudden discover a remarkable resale market for 2nd hand cards in Portugal/Spain

ditto the six counties!

MACHEAD

120_Minutes wrote: »

I'd rather remove rte from my epg altogether and not pay a tv license.

If the irish TV license is anything like the UK one we have up here in the north, it's not for 'watching RTÉ/BBC', it's for operating equipment capable of receiving TV signals. So it doesn't matter if the channels you watch originate in Ireland, the UK or outer Mongolia, you need a license.

Sam Russell

MACHEAD wrote: »

If the irish TV license is anything like the UK one we have up here in the north, it's not for 'watching RTÉ/BBC', it's for operating equipment capable of receiving TV signals. So it doesn't matter if the channels you watch originate in Ireland, the UK or outer Mongolia, you need a license.

There is a difference between the two licenses. In the UK, you have to be caught using the TV to contravene, while in the Republic, you just have to be in possession of the equipment. That is why the UK used to use detector vans with a huge aerial on top to catch people using their tellies, whereas here they use advertisements to shame peolple into paying, and then the occasional letter.

Mr McBoatface

Thanks for the input lads, points well made, but can we try and keep it on subject. Would you avail of a Sky free-to-view card for RTE should one be available ?

Thanks

MACHEAD

Yes, dam straight I would. Paying €56.00 a month at the moment!

Cherrycola

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a difference between the two licenses. In the UK, you have to be caught using the TV to contravene, while in the Republic, you just have to be in possession of the equipment. That is why the UK used to use detector vans with a huge aerial on top to catch people using their tellies, whereas here they use advertisements to shame peolple into paying, and then the occasional letter.

Well said, and the fact that the BBC only make their money from licence fees, and NOT advertising, changes things too.
Here we have to pay a fee for a channel we may or may not even have, or watch, knowing that all the fees ONLY go to this channel, and that they also make us sit through scores of advertising during movies, plus they use the money to make really bad copies of BBC/ITV reality shows!

Minstrel27

Cherrycola wrote: »

Well said, and the fact that the BBC only make their money from licence fees, and NOT advertising, changes things too.

You are joking right? I think you should learn about the BBC and all it's non UK activities, their 50% stake in UKTV (these channels all have advertising), DVD sales and the sale of programming to other broadcasters.

Licence fee only is completely wrong.

Guell72

RTE on Freesat would kill Sky too.

Apogee

RTÉ being available FTV on Videoguard, or on a separate encryption system, ultimately hinges on their contract with Sky - its duration and conditions. Try submitting an FOI request on the very same contract and you'll be refused on the basis of commerical sensitivity.

RTÉ readily proclaim themselves as the nation's public broadcaster but are quick to hide behind the veil of a commercial entreprise when it suits them. And not just on this issue - example.

Indeed, they appear to have a culture of secrecy in marked contrast to the BBC. Anyone following the development of Freesat and BBCHD, for example, will have noted the regular interaction of BBC personnel with posters of various blogs and forums. RTÉ are happy to use the reports from posters here when it comes to the DAB and DTT transmissions, but there is little or no information flow in the opposite direction.

Mr McBoatface

Thanks for your input Apogee, I agree 100% with what you say. I've searched everywhere for information and asked RTE/Minster of Communication for information on the length of the remaining contract RTE & Sky have and when I got a response it was "Sorry can't discuss that subject" or words to that effect. That's pretty much the reason why I opened the discussion here on boards, there are some people on this forum who I'd say know more about RTE and their runnings/contracts than the Minister for Non-Communication.

I find the current situation with RTE digital services to be very frustrating and to be honest don't care in what DVB format RTE digital is carried on as long as it's free after installation/set-up.

@Guell72 : I don't think RTE/TV3 as we know them can ever be free-sat, there would be rights issues that would prevent that, RTE/TV3 would have to remain encrypted. I do think that if Sky created an Irish Free To View like that in the UK they would gain business. I could see many people sitting at home watching RTE on a newly installed Sky Free-To-View system opening up the Sky TV guide/epg and upon seeing the extra programs that could be available to them if they subscribe, deciding to subscribe. Along with an increase in the take-up of box office events I could see Sky gaining business. I'm sure some current customers would downgrade to a FTV system but I'd say more new FTV customers would later upgraded to subscription services than they'd loose. It would be interesting in getting any stats from the UK on this.

Edit:-The now scraped RTE international could have been free-sat, I believe it was going to be it's a shame it was dumped.

Cherrycola

Minstrel27 wrote: »

You are joking right? I think you should learn about the BBC and all it's non UK activities, their 50% stake in UKTV (these channels all have advertising), DVD sales and the sale of programming to other broadcasters.

Licence fee only is completely wrong.

Im talking about the BBC channels only, and what they provide for the licence fee, and how they dont subject their licence fee paying viewers to ad breaks every 15mins.

RTE make money from licence fee, advertising, dvd sales, sale of programming also, and god knows what else, and we are still subjected to crap programming, repeats of movies that are donkeys years old at christmas, and shockingly bad copies of other channels programme ideas!
At least the BBC provide a decent level of programming to their viewers!

The_Conductor

Cherrycola wrote: »

Im talking about the BBC channels only, and what they provide for the licence fee, and how they dont subject their licence fee paying viewers to ad breaks every 15mins.

RTE make money from licence fee, advertising, dvd sales, sale of programming also, and god knows what else, and we are still subjected to crap programming, repeats of movies that are donkeys years old at christmas, and shockingly bad copies of other channels programme ideas!
At least the BBC provide a decent level of programming to their viewers!

They have a population base of almost 15 times ours though- is the BBC 15 times better than RTE? I don't think so........

Cherrycola

I would have to say yes, but thats my opinion.
I watch BBC way more than i do RTE, but yet am obliged to pay for their programming and only their programming, while paying a sub to Sky to even receive the channel in digital format.

The_Conductor

Cherrycola wrote: »

I would have to say yes, but thats my opinion.
I watch BBC way more than i do RTE, but yet am obliged to pay for their programming and only their programming, while paying a sub to Sky to even receive the channel in digital format.

I'm not willing to pay a Sky subscription- I can't get RTE at all, and most of my viewing is Showtime/CBC/NBC and various other Canadian and US channels, either by satellite or errrr alternate means........

I also have a Freesat HD box- for more local fare......

I don't tend to watch much from RTE- but even I admit that they have occasional gems, rare, but high quality viewing. RTE documentaries are up there with the BBCs- only fewer in number.

Minstrel27

Cherrycola wrote: »

At least the BBC provide a decent level of programming to their viewers!

People in the UK moan as much about the BBC as you lot do here about RTÉ

byte

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Thanks for the input lads, points well made, but can we try and keep it on subject. Would you avail of a Sky free-to-view card for RTE should one be available ?

Thanks

Yeah, I would, as long as the card was something other than Videoguard, like Conax, Viaccess, etc. so that I could use it in a proper satellite receiver with cardslot (or CI and CAM for card).

Apogee

jobyrne30 wrote: »

I've searched everywhere for information and asked RTE/Minster of Communication for information on the length of the remaining contract RTE & Sky have and when I got a response it was "Sorry can't discuss that subject" or words to that effect. That's pretty much the reason why I opened the discussion here on boards, there are some people on this forum who I'd say know more about RTE and their runnings/contracts than the Minister for Non-Communication.

Elmo is the only one who seems to have managed to get some info on the uplink deal, but that was an FOI related to TV3 and not RTÉ.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58586367

Kensington

The only information in the public domain seems to be that carriage is provided for free under the present arrangement. Nobody knows whether it's a fixed term contract or whether it's a "rolling" contract (ie. it continues in place indefinitely until either Sky or RTÉ pull out)

What is in the public domain however are the full charges list for any channel gaining access to the sky digital platform, you can read it here. If you sift through all the charges and start to tot up how much Sky would be seeking off RTÉ to carry the two channels either in a FTV setup, or in the clear, it's quite a hefty figure!

Mr McBoatface

@ Kensington & Apogee thanks for the Links and info, during the week when I get some time I read through them fully.

I know alot of people here have varying opinions about RTE but I think RTE availability on SKY is a major reason for the success of Sky In the Republic of Ireland, many people I know in my age group 30 some-things would not have gotten Sky TV if RTE where not available on it they simple would have gone with a cable provider. Amongst my parents age group RTE is a must have. So should RTE(or whom ever is responsible) ever be in a position to renegotiate the current contract with SKY they could negotiate a viable FTV option, that said the ideal time for negotiating such an option was when Sky where new to the market here.

Tony

Kensington wrote: »

. If you sift through all the charges and start to tot up how much Sky would be seeking off RTÉ to carry the two channels either in a FTV setup, or in the clear, it's quite a hefty figure!

Yes but in my opinion Sky need RTE more tha RTE need sky. It was sky who initially approached RTE so I see no reason why a much lower fee could not be negotiated.

Apogee

jobyrne30 wrote: »

I know alot of people here have varying opinions about RTE but I think RTE availability on SKY is a major reason for the success of Sky In the Republic of Ireland, many people I know in my age group 30 some-things would not have gotten Sky TV if RTE where not available on it they simple would have gone with a cable provider.

Even RTÉ now acknowledge this

RT&#201 wrote:

The Irish FTA terrestrial channels (RTE 1, RTE 2, TV 3 and TG 4) are all carried on this subscription platform. SKY benefits financially from the carriage of the four Irish FTA terrestrial channels as they comprise circa 43%+ of all television viewing in 'multi' homes (i.e. 80%+ of all households) in the state but no payment is required to-be made to the broadcasters by SKY in this regard.

http://www.rte.ie/about/pdfs/letter_on_digital_switchover.pdf


It has also been reported on this forum that Sky themselves now operate a "cheap-to-view" scheme.

Sponge Bob wrote:

Sky have an unpublished customer retention offer. When a full sub €22 a month or higher threatens to cancel they are offering a €5 a month RTE TG4 only sub in certain cases. It may also include tv3/c6/setanta ireland for all I know

This would mean the box continues to pick up the Irish and the Free channels only but with the Irish channels in EPG positions 1-4 ...OTOH you only pay €5 a month and for many with marginal reception a decent aerial would cost many years of the Sky sub.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055771919

Apogee

Tony wrote: »

Yes but in my opinion Sky need RTE more tha RTE need sky. It was sky who initially approached RTE so I see no reason why a much lower fee could not be negotiated.

Or better still, no fee!

Tony

Apogee wrote: »

Or better still, no fee!

Indeed yes.

Apogee

Tony wrote: »

It was sky who initially approached RTE

Tony, any links for this?

Tony

Afraid not, it was word of mouth information given to me by a friend in RTE but seems to have been a generaly accepted view at the time from other people I spoke to in the trade for whatever thats worth. There was also a poster on the satellite forum who pm'ed me the info also who asked not be named, he was involved in the TV3 issues at the time as there were objections from UTV.

snaps

i have only just started to watch RTE since they have started their DTT testing. I only seem to watch the news or sport though.

Only ever watched TV3 for football.

I watch 95% freesat/FTV/Foreign card subs and possibly not even 5% Irish tv.

After folking out 160 bobs for tv licence, i'd never pay sky 22e a month for RTE.

I personally think its a scandal that RTE is available on sky with only a sub and not FTV, But then this sums this country up, we will quite happily pay over the odds for anything.

After the cost of my equiptment, I save about 1,000e a year on tv viewing. I have offical subs to Cyfra+HD and Al Jazerra sports/Art showtime. I get all the premiership/champs league/spanish & italian footie/rugby/Internationals/boxing with these (More games than sky/setanta/espn show).

Now with the DTT trials i get a decent RTE/TV3 picture, paired with 2 UK FTV cards i have all the viewing i need for less than 250e a year!

Over the years my setup has accumalated as follows:

1.1m motorised dish feeding a TM6900 (Living room) & a Ferguson CR6900 (Main bedroom)

80cm fixed dish with octo lnb feeding a Mvision 300HD (Living room), Bush Freesat HD receiver, sky box ftv in kitchen, 3 cheap microelectronic FTA receivers in bedrooms.

Just to note, Irish analogue PQ (From Castlebar and Truskmore) is awfull on my phillips 47" LCD, but acceptable on the smaller tv's around the house, one reason why i never watched Irish TV until DTT tests.

Mr McBoatface

Hi snaps, I'm using a free-sat free-view combo HTPC myself. Like you receiving the DTT test signal and I'm quiet happy with the quality.

How-ever the DTT is not a service it's a test with many breaks the in "service" and not all area's can get it now so it's safe to assume not all area's will be able to get it if and when it's an official service. Many people in both urban/rural area's have poor DTT signal due to large building, mountains and varies other issues, In many rural area's there is no cable service. This all mean for many the best option for quality digital TV is a satellite signal.

RTE in it's current format can never go Free-sat due to rights issues leaving a hypothetical encrypted FTV service the best possible option for many. The scrapped RTE international running Irish only programs could have been Free-sat.

The initial set-up cost to receive a hypothetical encrypted FTV service via Sky would be a lot less in the long term than paying SKY for a minimal sub with RTE. It's not a perfect solution but for many it would be the best compromise.

Also to anybody interested I emailed Eamonn Ryan about this subject late last week. I got a acknowledgement from somebody in his office today basically saying the contents of the email where being looked at. If they ever actual read the email and respond to it I'll post the responses here. (Won't hold my breathe)

STB

jobyrne30 wrote: »

The initial set-up cost to receive a hypothetical encrypted FTV service via Sky would be a lot less in the long term than paying SKY for a minimal sub with RTE. It's not a perfect solution but for many it would be the best compromise.

Jo, FTV via Sky would still involve one having to purchase a Sky Box in order to keep the FTV cards alive due to Sky's proprietry NDS encryption system. As byte suggested it wont work with a "proper" fta box.

That is not a solution.

Coverage
DTT already covers 75% to 80% of the country without the fill in TXs on under its "enginnering tests" guise.

DTT is also a lot more stable and powerful than analogue at a lower erp and I wouild imagine that it will get into some of those places that analogue never did before. The whole sat solution to that very problem may become a thing of the past. Time will tell.

120_Minutes

Minstrel27 wrote: »

You are not paying a licence to view RTÉ.

yes yes yes, i know this. i still begrudge paying it though, personaly i see ZERO returns on my yearly 160 quid. less then 1% of my yearly telly watching is on rte. ditto my radio listening. I dont agree with it and if i could get away with not paying it, i would.

Mr McBoatface

@ STB , I'm aware that a payment to SKY for installation would be required and a Sky box would still be required. For the 20 - 25 % of people without DDT coverage Sky or cable is only other options available to them as things stand the would have to pay for a sub to view RTE on their Services. SKY FTV would be a less costly option.

Also many people who live in 75%-80% of the area's supposedly covered by DTT reception still can't receive DTT due to obstruction, for example location within an apartment block can be an issue, Apartment on one side of a block may have good reception, yet on the opposite side of the block there may be none. The only chance these people have of receiving DTT is via a roof top aerial wired down to their apartment, Unfortunately this option may not be available to them so they are left paying for a sub to either cable TV or Sky should they wish to view RTE.

In my parent case and In on my own case, We have excellent reception at the rear of our houses but in our living rooms where the main TV are the signal is really poor. Rabbits ears just don't work. I had to put up an indoor attic aerial and wire it to my living room to get reception. Once I done this I've 100% signal quality, In my parent case they required an outdoor aerial to get reception. I'm in Athy which has excellent DTT coverage from 2 DTT masts, Mount Leinster being the one I use. My parent house in in line of sight of the Kippure mast.

There is a once off cost of installation for DTT aerials and DTT reception equipment too , which depending on your requirements and location may be more or less than the cost of a Sky installation.

DTT will go ahead eventually but that's been said before about 10 years ago(I hope it happens this time), It would be nice to have a minimal cost alternative for those without access to DTT.

Apogee

STB wrote: »

DTT is also a lot more stable and powerful than analogue at a lower erp and I wouild imagine that it will get into some of those places that analogue never did before. The whole sat solution to that very problem may become a thing of the past. Time will tell.

If that were the case, then the UK would never have bothered with Freesat.

Tony

STB wrote: »

The whole sat solution to that very problem may become a thing of the past. Time will tell.

I doubt it as satellite has a lot more frequency spectrum to provide more channels than DTT can with the current technology.

snaps

STB wrote: »

Jo, FTV via Sky would still involve one having to purchase a Sky Box in order to keep the FTV cards alive due to Sky's proprietry NDS encryption system. As byte suggested it wont work with a "proper" fta box.

That is not a solution.

Coverage
DTT already covers 75% to 80% of the country without the fill in TXs on under its "enginnering tests" guise.

DTT is also a lot more stable and powerful than analogue at a lower erp and I wouild imagine that it will get into some of those places that analogue never did before. The whole sat solution to that very problem may become a thing of the past. Time will tell.

Yes i get TV3 from truskmore and the DTT signal/test seems much stronger than the analouge signal. Well at least it doesnt suffer from interfearence!