Men and talkin???

Snowie

Hey chaps this being something thats been disscussed in the club before...
men and not talking...

Ive got a mate, who has and is becoming more and more wthdrawn.
He's got the dessise some of us including my self suffer from that old thinks to much. I know hes Unhppy and has said so but wont tell me why. He's been like this for a few weeks and I'm some what concerned.

but its left me thinking once again why don't men talk to other men about problems is it deep down because we dont show were not so alfamale?

I just dont get why men botel up things so much because it seems as thats what hes doing ....

Mackman

I think its more to do with men feeling less of a man if they cant cope with things on their own. I try and cope with everything myself.

Sometimes it has brought me to breaking point, luckily, my OH has had the sense to keep at me until i told her what was bothering me. I felt a hell of a lot better after it too.

After that, Ive been making an effort to talk more openly lately. Ive realised that dealing with everything yourself doesnt make you a man. Having the balls to ask for help does. Thats what family and friends are for.

Nervous Wreck

I used to be like this. Then for a while, I let everything out. That didn't work either. Now, I keep things to myself so I can mull them over. If I can't sort it out in my own head, I give my best friend a call and me and him will sit down and talk about it until it all makes sense. Be that minutes or hours, we stick at it. He does the same when shít gets too much for him too. It's pretty awesome....

humberklog

I'd be one for not talking out loud about problems or impending dramas, but I wouldn't consider it bottling up through some sort of social conditioning. Much prefer to think/concentrate/worry a situation out. Sharing troubled thoughts just spreads ripples of vibrations of those troubles far and wide and then they return in a flipping tsunami of questions and interest and concern. That doesn't help.
There's only one thing worse than being asked "are you ok" and that is being asked directly how that problem that you shared is evolving.

That_Guy

Some men see it as a sign of weakness talking to people about their problems and what's getting them down.

I'd gladly talk to my mates about my problems because they would most likely understand but they're to proud to even begin to think of discussing personal issues with one another which is pretty annoying really.

It's not exactly like I'd go off and tell everybody about their problem. It's strange though. I think I'm the only one out of my group of friends who doesn't see talking as a sign of weakness.

I remember about 2 years ago a mate of mine was feeling really down but wouldn't tell me what was going on. I didn't force him to tell me but he just blurted it out and he said that he felt so much better for it.

I think guys maybe start telling people things when they're right at the edge of the threshold and need a helping hand.

Personally I do try and overcome things myself first but when there's only so much I can do on my own I talk to people about it and I end up feeling a lot better in myself for 1) sharing it and 2) realising that I'm not the only one going through things.

metrovelvet

My brother says men dont do it because no one wants to hear it.

GiftofGab

It's extremely hard for a man to talk about his problems. Talking about them feels like you have to swallow your pride and be less of a man. Not being able to cope with problems is like coming across as being weak. As another poster pointed out, its like spreading 'ripples of vibrations' that can come back to haunt you. I know its best to speak to somebody but sometimes it can be better to just ride the storm and let the problems sort themselves out. When they are over, you don't have to go around telling everybody that there is no need for their concern and that you're alright now. Things go back to normal.

I for one am not able to talk to people about my problems. I would love to but just find it too difficult to open up to another man like that. Probably down to my competitive edge, don't want to come across as being weaker than anybody else.

CDfm

If a serious issue comes up I will talk to my partner or one of my friends or get professional advice as appropriate.

Some problems I wont discuss as they are temporary and are out of my control. I am far more likely on any given day to worry about ciggerettes or a change in the menu in the Chinese then the state of the world.

A great saying is "out of my hands" for stuff you have no control over.

L31mr0d

Reminds me of this scene from friends:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGoC8FTLKSI

It's pretty much the case I have to say, from my experience. I think guys talk about their problems with their friends that are girls or their girlfriends/wives, because it increases the friendship and bond I guess. With men it isn't needed.

I appreciate this. With my friends I can just leave my problems behind, I know they won't ask me about them, and they won't burden me with theirs. It's easy going, relaxed and an escape. With my friends that are males I guess things are kept in the present, nobody worries about the future or the past, just what we are doing right now.

There are exceptions, depending on the severity of the problem. If I noticed a friend started being absent or frequently looked upset I'd ask him about it.

PK2008

Get locked and talk about problems then- at least that way the next day nobody can remember what you said and if they do you can always blame the drink

although....nobody likes a buzzkill so maybe keep it to yourself unless your thinking of topping yourself, then call the samaritans

3hn2givr7mx1sc

One of my mates went like that for a while..turned out that he was gay.

humberklog

This "sign of weakness" business, I don't buy it. But then maybe that's just it. It is a weakness, no sign, just is. Burdening the tribe with matters that can and should be shouldrered alone. The tribe has enough on its plate; downing buffalo with blow pipes, keeping kindle dry for fire, keeping the bell-end clean for better chances of propagation and what-not.

Maybe, just to turn it around a little, that sharing your problems (ones that will be dealt with over time by the simple turning of the world) isn't only a sign of weakness but is in fact "weakness". A problem shared is a problem doubled in my book. I've got arrows to sharpen and dip in poison, a telecom bill to be paid too and a missus that's banging the postman. Be strong. Put your head down and get on and (hopefully) over it. Pint?

FracturedBeat

Silence is fine, once you also have something that offers release and comfort.

Running yourself into the ground over something that can be dealt with, physically or emotionally....that is a weakness if you ask me.

Michael B

OP I don't want to be alarmist and say he might do something stupid but I'd worry about him, sit him down and MAKE him talk to you. For your own piece of mind. I used to keep a lot to myself until I met my girlfriend. Now I have someone I can tell anything to and it's a weight off my shoulders. I'd hate to have to go back to not having that again. I hope your friend will be okay, keeping things to yourself isn't the way to solve problems. Hope you can help him.

CDfm

Snowie some people are just miserable and are happy that way.

You cant force him to talk to you and he may not even understand the reason for his problem.Thats life.

All you can do is ask him if he is ok and suggest to him that he visits his GP.

Giselle

PK2008 wrote: »

Get locked and talk about problems then- at least that way the next day nobody can remember what you said and if they do you can always blame the drink

although....nobody likes a buzzkill so maybe keep it to yourself unless your thinking of topping yourself, then call the samaritans

A real friend wouldn't consider listening a buzzkill.

That_Guy

metrovelvet wrote: »

My brother says men dont do it because no one wants to hear it.

No offence to your brother but that's a very defeatist attitude to have. Of course people will listen.

CDfm

Giselle wrote: »

A real friend wouldn't consider listening a buzzkill.

In fairness Giselle, most people will not have the skills to deal with someone elses depression and no matter however well meaning they are ,are still not professionals.

If the guy has temperory problems that are making him unhappy then tempus fugit and it will pass in time and he will cope. Depression as an illness is different to being just sad or something that a person can snap out of.

THe OP mentioned it as a disease ,so has meant that he thinks the reason is that his friend has the illness as opposed to having a temperary life blip.

If the OPs friend is not willing to seek help or discuss it there is nothing the OP can do as to get it sorted as his friend has to want to get help.

Thats much different to sitting down and discussing a work or relationship problem that is making you sad.

So maybe guys dont talk enough but maybe we dont have the time or inclination to talk about our feelings all the time.

If it was me i would discuss these things with my partner or a close friend but usually my problems are if the steak in my local reteraunt is a rip off or too small.

Now how would the OP cope if the friend came back and said I think I might be gay and you are the person that fills my dreams. An extreme example but there may be a reason why the guy has clammed up and maybe he will talk in his own time.

SugarHigh

I think you should only share problems with people who can actually help fix them otherwise you're just moaning.

If you have a problem that is out of your control and can't be fixed then just ignore it instead of going around moaning about it to everyone. I'm sure all the Oprah educated psychologists will disagree and say it's not healthy but in my experience it works.

SugarHigh

humberklog wrote: »

This "sign of weakness" business, I don't buy it. But then maybe that's just it. It is a weakness, no sign, just is. Burdening the tribe with matters that can and should be shouldrered alone. The tribe has enough on its plate; downing buffalo with blow pipes, keeping kindle dry for fire, keeping the bell-end clean for better chances of propagation and what-not.

Maybe, just to turn it around a little, that sharing your problems (ones that will be dealt with over time by the simple turning of the world) isn't only a sign of weakness but is in fact "weakness". A problem shared is a problem doubled in my book. I've got arrows to sharpen and dip in poison, a telecom bill to be paid too and a missus that's banging the postman. Be strong. Put your head down and get on and (hopefully) over it. Pint?

This is pretty much my view. If you're not able to cope with your own problems then of course you are weaker than people who can.

humberklog

Giselle wrote: »

A real friend wouldn't consider listening a buzzkill.

Well that's a female's attitude to a very real male conundrum being aired on a male forum.


I didn't think that the OP was looking for advice on how to deal with his friend but was more just throwing the topic out there to kick about.


When matters come to a head blokes talk. When the time is right I find then men open up. This is generally when the matter is drawing to a resolution or when the matter has reached an empasse. It's the long bit in the middle that brings the silence, I find anyhow.

SugarHigh

SugarHigh wrote: »

This is pretty much my view. If you're not able to cope with your own problems then of course you are weaker than people who can.

And it is precisely this attitude that makes men feel like they can't talk to anyone and ultimately go on to kill themselves.

As for friends not being qualified to deal with your problems, talking about how you're feeling is, alot of the time, a huge help, no advice needs to be given, just a friendly ear.

Snow Monkey, don't force your friend into talking to you but I would sit him down for 2 minutes and let him know that you are worried about him and make sure he knows you are there for him.

am not a talker either, crap has happened to me in the past and people always went on about "how strong I was" but infact, I wasn't strong at all, I just didn't want people to think I was weak, in the end I ended up out of work almost a year with serious depression.

I still don't talk about my feelings, I probably never will, it's just not something I'm good at, but at least now I will say, I feel like sh*t and ask for a hug or whatever which is enough. Knowing that I'm not alone and that there is always someone that will listen is in itself enough for me.

humberklog

Deleted User wrote: »

And it is precisely this attitude that makes men feel like they can't talk to anyone and ultimately go on to kill themselves.

But the majority of men don't like discussing problems that are on-going yet the majority of men don't kill themselves. I think that there are for more underlying reasons for people topping themselves. Quite a lot of people that do kill themselves have been through counselling or have come to the attention of the psychiatric services at some point in their lives, yet I wouldn't dare say that talking about problems enhances the chances of someone killing themselves.

I don't go with this statement whatsoever.

SugarHigh

Deleted User wrote: »

And it is precisely this attitude that makes men feel like they can't talk to anyone and ultimately go on to kill themselves.

As for friends not being qualified to deal with your problems, talking about how you're feeling is, alot of the time, a huge help, no advice needs to be given, just a friendly ear.

Snow Monkey, don't force your friend into talking to you but I would sit him down for 2 minutes and let him know that you are worried about him and make sure he knows you are there for him.

am not a talker either, crap has happened to me in the past and people always went on about "how strong I was" but infact, I wasn't strong at all, I just didn't want people to think I was weak, in the end I ended up out of work almost a year with serious depression.

I still don't talk about my feelings, I probably never will, it's just not something I'm good at, but at least now I will say, I feel like sh*t and ask for a hug or whatever which is enough. Knowing that I'm not alone and that there is always someone that will listen is in itself enough for me.

I just don't see what problem that could ever solve.

If a problem doesn't have a solution then dwelling on it is only going to make it worse it's much better just to ignore it. I think people have gotten a lot worse at dealing with their own problems on constantly have to rely on other people. The funny thing is most people seem to consider this progress.

Also blaming people like me for suicide doesn't make you right just because you tried to make me look like the bad guy.

"Worldwide suicide rates have increased by 60% in the past 50 years, mainly in the developing countries" We have a much easier life than 50 years ago and it's a lot more common to share your feelings yet suicide rates have increased, maybe this is because people just aren't as good at dealing with their own problems anymore since they constantly rely on other people.

A recent study found that teenage girls who vented to each other about their problems, from boy trouble to social slights, were more likely to develop depression and anxiety — and the same is likely true for adult women, says Amanda Rose, the author of the study.

“There’s a definite belief in our culture that talking about our problems makes you feel better,” says Rose, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Missouri, Columbia, whose research was published in the July issue of Developmental Psychology. “That’s true in moderation. ... It only becomes risky when it becomes excessive.”

Her advise to these was basically be more like a boy.

The study, which will appear in the July issue of the American Psychological Association journal Development Psychology, involved observing boys and girls in the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th grades over a six month period to see how sharing problems with friends correlated with anxious and depressed feelings. They found that for girls, sharing problems with friends strengthened their friendships, but it also increased their feelings of depression and anxiety. Boys, however, did not react the same way. While feelings of friendship also increased with boys, there was no apparent impact on their depression or anxiety levels.

And yet here we are criticizing the way men do things.

humberklog

Deleted User wrote: »

And it is precisely this attitude that makes men feel like they can't talk to anyone and ultimately go on to kill themselves.

Can you back this statement up?

I really do find it very off the scale and away from reality but I may well have the wrong handle on things and will gladly stand corrected.

Link to stats or such like?

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

Can you back this statement up?

I really do find it very off the scale and away from reality but I may well have the wrong handle on things and will gladly stand corrected.

Link to stats or such like?

I honestly always thought this was well known.

A piece from NHS website

One of the reasons more men than women commit suicide is because many men are reluctant to talk about their feelings or to seek help when they need it.

Many men feel that they're expected to cope with problems themselves and that society puts pressure on them to conform to this idea of maleness. Being open about emotional problems is seen by some men as a weakness for which they'd be teased or ridiculed.

Suicide survivor Jude Redmond, 39, from Brighton, says he could not have discussed his depression with his male friends.

“My social life revolved around meeting friends in the pub,” he says. “Our sense of humour is based on winding people up and finding a chink in their armour.”

CDfm

I think there is a big difference between depression as an illness and just life events.

People are not mind readers so if someone handles things well then how can other people tell. They cant as you dont get mindreaders.

If events are extreme enough and you do get situations in mens lives that are extreme enough.

So there is a huge difference between life skills and identifying areas where men should ask for help and publicising it.

I mean what makes it reasonable that someone who is physically big has better coping skills than a small person. That seems to be one of the most ridicoulous assumptions in any Public health Policy going.

The other thing is that if men stopped doing what men do work wise etc the system would run to a halt. So a man who can cut it is deemed healthy.

humberklog

Deleted User wrote: »

I honestly always thought this was well known.

A piece from NHS website

Well it'd be some seismic shift in maleness to change from one to the other. Perhaps the stats are just that because of the way we are. As in: they're the numbers and that's that.

Handsome Bob

In my experience it doesn't really work. For one, sharing personal issues with lads can lead to really awkward situations. You get the impression from friends that they want to act as if nothing happened, and that in turn makes you want to forget about it. That doesn't make them bad friends, it's just that one doesn't realise the severity of a situation until something horrible happens. They'll just put someone's meltdown down as "drunk talk".

Secondly, and as already mentioned, people don't have the skills to deal with other people's issues. I mean if someone dumped their suicidal thoughts on me, I would want to help them, but I'd have no idea how. Eventually telling people that they have everything to live for rings hollow and becomes redundant because you're simply not in that person's shoes, and you have no idea about what precise advice you can give them.

All this being said, it's something that we as men really need to work on. I have seen what destruction "not talking" can cause, one can pay a big price for not being able to make a friend feel like they can talk to you about anything.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

I think there is a big difference between depression as an illness and just life events.

.

Oh absolutely there is a difference, unfortunately though life's events can in some cases trigger depression, and bottling things up may ultimately make it worse.

People deal with things in different ways, that's the nature of being human, but sometimes as humans, we may need help, and the attitude that asking for help or talking about your feelings is weak, imo sucks. I think it takes a very strong person to admit there is something wrong.

humberklog

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it takes a very strong person to admit there is something wrong.

While we all want to say the right thing the realities can be very different. From the men that I do know that indulge their problems with others, well, quite frankly: they don't half bang on about every arse and elbow of a problem they encounter. The men that do come forward with their problems, in my experience, nick all the limelight. They crave it. Love to share their problems and I switch off from them or tell them to shut up and deal with it.

CDfm

Deleted User wrote: »

People deal with things in different ways, that's the nature of being human, but sometimes as humans, we may need help, and the attitude that asking for help or talking about your feelings is weak, imo sucks. I think it takes a very strong person to admit there is something wrong.

humberklog wrote: »

While we all want to say the right thing the realities can be very different. From the men that I do know that indulge their problems with others, well, quite frankly: they don't half bang on about every arse and elbow of a problem they encounter. The men that do come forward with their problems, in my experience, nick all the limelight. They crave it. Love to share their problems and I switch off from them or tell them to shut up and deal with it.

I can see both sides here and there is merit in both.

There is a huge difference in the type of public mental health programmes available you get to help people identify the problems and the wishy washy programmes you get delivered supposed to help. A friend of mine is getting help at the moment. I dont think he is really getting the help he needs - all lovey dovey hardly prepares him for becoming effective again.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

While we all want to say the right thing the realities can be very different. From the men that I do know that indulge their problems with others, well, quite frankly: they don't half bang on about every arse and elbow of a problem they encounter. The men that do come forward with their problems, in my experience, nick all the limelight. They crave it. Love to share their problems and I switch off from them or tell them to shut up and deal with it.

We all have friends like that, there will always be whingers in the world and I HATE negativity, believe it or not, I am a very positive person and genuinely believe (actually we were discussing this in work on friday!) that most people can choose to be positive/negative the majority of the time.

I think though that the type of person who is going to bottle things up is not the type of person who is going to constantly moan about their problems, but if they at least know that they have someone there to talk to when things get bad then they may deal with things a little better.

Tail Wagger

PK2008 wrote: »

Get locked and talk about problems then- at least that way the next day nobody can remember what you said and if they do you can always blame the drink

although....nobody likes a buzzkill so maybe keep it to yourself unless your thinking of topping yourself, then call the samaritans

===========================================================
Totally wrong, stay away from the drink.

The first thing you need to do is, be in control of yourself, if you have a good and true mate s/he will be only to willing to listen to you.
S/he will be there for you to try and help you with your problem's
you will most likely know your best and trusted mate who you can talk to.

the trouble with some people is they think, ah I'll put that away in the back of my mind and I'll forget about it.
After a while you awaken some night and it starts nipping at you and it keeps nipping at you. Then you start to carry it around with you, if you drink or do drugs it starts to come back at you when you come down from your high.

If it's getting to you like that and you feel you have no one to talk to, there are helpers out there at the other side of the phone( The Samaritan's ph; 1850-609090 -24 x 7 x 365 days a year )
finally don't let it fester tell someone, don't let it consume you or your dead. :cool:

humberklog

I think on the whole our (us men) system works just about right for us. It is us, it's how we've evolved. Sure there are suicides, there'll always be unfortunately. Tinkering with our system could have deeper ramification. It's not broke, it's not perfect but it's not broke.

Tail Wagger

I agree in a lot of cases there will be people who will choose suicide.
I , we have all been touched by Suicide, it's very sad that some of the
nicest people choose this way out.
The question is Why?
Is it the deep depression we fall into from keeping these secrets to yourself,
when the logical way out is to tell someone and talk it over.

I think it's easier for a younger person to tell someone about their problem than an older person, the reason I believe this is the younger person will have many more friends to talk to.
Older people tend to rely on one maybe two close friends to talk to.... but at least we all should tell someone, " A problem shared is a problem halved"..:cool:

CDfm

humberklog wrote: »

I think on the whole our (us men) system works just about right for us. It is us, it's how we've evolved. Sure there are suicides, there'll always be unfortunately. Tinkering with our system could have deeper ramification. It's not broke, it's not perfect but it's not broke.

In one way yes it works but there are lots of casualties in Ireland other than suicide.

So when someone does fall thru the cracks there is no safety net.

Snowie

Cheers for the replys folks....
But I was'nt trying to get advice i was more so about why men dont talk....

when I wnet through a withdraw patch in my life I couldnt talk about it....I was a gray shadow to some one I had once been Il never be that care free, as I once was ...

I remeber the awfull feeling that some of us feel of anxiety bursting through my vains my hand shaking my heart pounding like id just done a 500 meter sprint....

I think a lot of men in genral dont understand enough about there feelings emotions the genral consences isto ignore it try supress it but in that state of mind its difficult to do.

But there wasa long thread in here on the case of sucide espechilly male sucide on this forum I think its a lot of the more negitive comments spoken could be considered a decideing factor to why male sucide is so high.....

It really does highlight where the problem really stems....

CDfm

At inquests by the Coroners you get the cause of death but not really the events leading up to the conditions.

Its a discussion worth starting and worth continuing.