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what the hell!?!

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  • 19-02-2010 3:27pm
    #1
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭


    we now have (and have had for some time, i was just unaware) eastern euro consultants (and some NCHDs) in some hospitals over here who cant even speak proper english, and they didnt have to do TRAS (or what ever its called now days) when they came over... wtf?,

    wont name the hospital/consultant etc, but it was in a big private hospital, i was refered to him by my GP, i learned of all this by having a chat with him. im aware we have had alot of international docs over here, who do a fine job i.e from pakistan/indian/arab etc, but they all had to do exams to see if they were competent enough to practice over here....


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    #2
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Under EU law members of EU states have freedom to work in all EU states without restrictions. This means they are exempt from the language tests.

    It's quite a big issue in the UK at present. It was thought by the ex deans of some post grad collages to have contributed to the tragic death of a patient treated by an EU doctor who had flown in to cover an on call shift.


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    #3
    Sitric
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭Sitric


    That's mad, I just had a look at the GMC and the medical council websites and you're right, anyone from the eea is exempt from a language exam in the UK and Ireland. I'm almost certain that France require a language test (They actually have special exemption for 8 doctors max to work in a private, american clinic in Paris) and I know for certain that Norway requires a language test if you are not from Scandinavia.


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    #4
    Prime Mover
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭Prime Mover


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Under EU law members of EU states have freedom to work in all EU states without restrictions. This means they are exempt from the language tests.


    Could you get around that by making everyone take the language test e.g. build it into medical school somewhere along the way? I am guessing it is not that hard if you can speak the language.


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    #5
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭imported_guy


    Prime Mover wrote: »
    Could you get around that by making everyone take the language test e.g. build it into medical school somewhere along the way? I am guessing it is not that hard if you can speak the language.

    well there would be no point in making an irish graduate sit TOEFL or IELTS or something like TRAS (or what its called now), because they will probably ace it since english is their first language, but i do think if i want to work in poland or norway i should be competent in polish or norwegean so i can treat the patients properly, and so i should be tested with a polish exam w/e and if polish doctors want to work here they should be competent enough at english or irish(lol)


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    #6
    Prime Mover
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭Prime Mover


    No my point is you can't discriminate and only test some EU workers so if everyone has to sit the test then there is no problem. It is just a formality for english speakers but it weeds out the ones that can't speak english.


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    #7
    lonestargirl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭lonestargirl


    Prime Mover wrote: »
    No my point is you can't discriminate and only test some EU workers so if everyone has to sit the test then there is no problem. It is just a formality for english speakers but it weeds out the ones that can't speak english.

    This would work.

    I wonder if it would be ok to base the test on the language you did your degree in rather than nationality, some eastern european schools teach through english and their graduates would be exempt. It's then not discriminating on the basis of where you are from. That's how TOEFL works in the US, I didn't have to do it for my PhD application as I did my degrees though english.


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    #8
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭imported_guy


    lonestargirl wrote: »
    This would work.

    I wonder if it would be ok to base the test on the language you did your degree in rather than nationality, some eastern european schools teach through english and their graduates would be exempt. It's then not discriminating on the basis of where you are from. That's how TOEFL works in the US, I didn't have to do it for my PhD application as I did my degrees though english.

    you didnt have to do it because english is your FIRST language (assuming you are irish), indians/pakistanis/african/arabs etc study in english they still have to do TOEFL if they want to study (because english isnt their first language), but in america for residency i dont believe they ask for TOEFL for residency programmes, they just ask for USMLE step 1 and step 2 scores, which is pretty fair as well, since atleast if they score decently they know enough english to sit the test and would be competent enough to take part in the residency, TRAS/PLAB are similar to the USMLEs, except everyone in america has to sit USMLE (including locals) but EU graduates dont need to do TRAS/PLAB (im pretty sure canadian/american graduates who want to practice here have to do TRAS/PLAB)


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    #9
    lonestargirl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭lonestargirl


    imported_guy wrote: »
    you didnt have to do it because english is your FIRST language (assuming you are irish), indians/pakistanis/african/arabs etc study in english they still have to do TOEFL if they want to study (because english isnt their first language),

    I sure it depends on the university but for the one I am applying to only
    "Foreign nationals whose native language in not English and who have not attended an English-speaking university must present evidence of proficiency in English by satisfactory completing the TOEFL and TWE, administered in foreign countries by E.T.S. ". Thus foreign natiaonls who have attended university through english are exempt.
    imported_guy wrote: »
    but in america for residency i dont believe they ask for TOEFL for residency programmes, they just ask for USMLE step 1 and step 2 scores, which is pretty fair as well, since atleast if they score decently they know enough english to sit the test and would be competent enough to take part in the residency, TRAS/PLAB are similar to the USMLEs, except everyone in america has to sit USMLE (including locals) but EU graduates dont need to do TRAS/PLAB (im pretty sure canadian/american graduates who want to practice here have to do TRAS/PLAB)

    True you don't need TOEFL for residency you just need USMLEs. USMLEs obviously primarily about the medical knowledge but Step 2 CS does include a spoken english proficiency subcomponent.


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    #10
    Sitric
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭Sitric


    "Step 2 CS does include a spoken english proficiency subcomponent."

    A friend of mine just did this exam, he reckons it has a 10% fail rate which is almost exclusively non english speakers.
    A 1500 dollar sandwich is how he described it to me. (They give you a sandwich for lunch but otherwise he just studied for a week for this one)

    (He studied like a mad man for the written tests)


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    #11
    xoxyx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭xoxyx


    EU law does allow for exceptions to equal treatment in limited cases such as where a difference in treatment constitutes a geniune occupational requirement.
    Surely an ability to communicate with patients would be such a requirement.
    This kind of thing tends to be messy though.


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    #12
    lonestargirl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭lonestargirl


    Sitric wrote: »
    "Step 2 CS does include a spoken english proficiency subcomponent."

    A friend of mine just did this exam, he reckons it has a 10% fail rate which is almost exclusively non english speakers.
    A 1500 dollar sandwich is how he described it to me. (They give you a sandwich for lunch but otherwise he just studied for a week for this one)

    (He studied like a mad man for the written tests)

    The whole Step 2 CS is basically "is this a moderately sane person who can communicate in english test". It is a pain that you have to do it in the US, means it costs a fortune.


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    #13
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Can we bring this back on topic, please. For those who need reminding, the topic is the proficiency (or otherwise) in English of people working in Ireland.

    If you want to chat about how good your English has to be to work in the US, please start another thread.


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    #14
    Narkius Maximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Narkius Maximus


    lonestargirl wrote: »
    The whole Step 2 CS is basically "is this a moderately sane person who can communicate in english test". It is a pain that you have to do it in the US, means it costs a fortune.

    Yeah but it is a holiday-Book into the LA test site. Sweet! If it was a year or two ago you might have even got the great HSE to pay for it. Damn recession!


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