What Dublin Bus could learn from Formula 1

Flukey

No, I am not talking about going faster, though there are certainly some drivers who really take their time when they have a clear road ahead of them. What I am talking about in this instance is driver changes. They should be nearly as fast as a formula 1 pitstop, but they are usually anything but. Most of us know the scenario: The bus pulls up and sits and waits for up to 10 minutes sometimes for a new driver. When it comes to Formula 1, the pit crew are always ready and waiting for the driver of the car to come in, and everything is done as quickly and efficiently as possible. How is this achieved? Well for one thing, the pit crew know when the driver is coming in, because either he'll have radioed ahead, or he'll have got the call by radio. So why can't the existing driver on a bus, about 10 minutes from the changeover point, radio ahead to tell them he is on his way, so that the changeover driver can be there when he gets there? That much you could at least expect.

We don't mind the two drivers having a quick social chat and exchanging some practical information, like problems with the bus or that a particular passenger is looking for an upcoming stop, but you would expect the new driver to be there waiting. So Dublin Bus, take a leaf out of Formula 1's book, and radio ahead to say you are coming, so it is the changeover driver that is waiting, not the the passengers. Oh, and if the road is clear, don't be afraid to push the accelerator just a little harder. The buses aren't made by Toyota.

DubMedic

You know what, that's not actually a reasonable request.

Alot of these drivers have been driving these buses for quite some time, I'd think they would know what is best.

Besides, it's not too much to ask that you wait for a couple of minutes whilst the bus driver gets onto the bus, applies the necessary route numbers etc,sorts out any issues with the other drivers, and allows any passengers with baby carriers etc, on.

We've become far too high paced in this capital, it's time to accept that some things just can't be changed.

.

Flukey

DubMedic, if you read my post, you'll see that I don't mind the practicalities of the drivers changing, which of course takes a couple of minutes. It is the 10 minutes of sitting in the parked bus waiting for the changeover driver to arrive, which sometimes happens, that can be the problem. It is not an unreasonable request for the driver to radio ahead and say that he'll be at the changeover point in about 10 minutes, so that when the bus arrives the new driver is waiting there ready to take over. Sometimes the driver is there and waiting and there is a smooth changeover, but you often get the situation where you are left sitting there, waiting for the new driver to come. A radio call ahead is all it would take. It could work to the changeover driver's advantage too in some instances, like where his bus is late arriving. In those instances he'd know it is going to be late and he wouldn't have be standing too long waiting on an overdue bus, and he could instead be getting another cup of coffee or reading his paper inside before coming out to take over. Everyone's a winner.

Cookie_Monster

That really annoys me, anything up to 20 mins just to swap drivers, its stupid. There is absolutly no reason why what Fllukey said can't be put in place other than drivers not wanting to.

Its espicially annoying on the likes of the 46a when often 5-6 other 46a pass by in the time you are waiting for the driver to bother to turn up :mad:

All change overs should either be streamlined or only occur at terminii, not mid route

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

jesus_thats_gre

The analogy is retarded but you are right.

Flukey

The analogy was just one of terms of efficiency of a stop, practical activity and start again in terms of a vehicle. I didn't mention the route, but yes for me it is the 46A too. As Cookie Monster says, you do see several other 46As and other buses that would suit people passing, while you are waiting. Another thing that can be annoying is that the changeovers are often at rush hour, meaning you've got a bus full of passengers getting more fed up minute by minute. They are not sure whether to get off and chance getting on another in case the driver does actually come quickly and because the next bus that passes might not have room.

It would be good if the changeovers were done at the terminus, rather than the garage, but I presume there are practical reasons for it being done that way, in terms of them clocking in and out or registering their takings or some other accepted work practices and conditions. Even so, a driver could be taken from Donnybrook as a passenger to the terminus by any passing bus and take up his bus there, and drivers going off duty could be dropped off by the next bus that leaves the terminus.

old_aussie

Reminds me of Reg Varney...On The Buses

Anything more than a couple of mins is a matter of "we don't care about the paying customer" :mad:

popebenny16

not sure how it is done now, but i have not very fond memories of the 16 in parnell square for ages on many a sunday as a kid as we waited for driver and conductor. Thing is, these are supposed to happen at a specified time. No reason why the driver taking over cant be just waiting at the stop for the bus. Having the bus wait for the new driver to turn up isnt really on.

Cookie_Monster

popebenny16 wrote: »

not sure how it is done now, but i have not very fond memories of the 16 in parnell square for ages on many a sunday as a kid as we waited for driver and conductor. Thing is, these are supposed to happen at a specified time. No reason why the driver taking over cant be just waiting at the stop for the bus. Having the bus wait for the new driver to turn up isnt really on.

yes, especially since its not exactly likely for a DB to be early or on time. There should be no reason the new driver is not already waiting.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yes, especially since its not exactly likely for a DB to be early or on time. There should be no reason the new driver is not already waiting.

Well there is actually - he may not be due to take up at that time - i.e. the bus could be early.

The buses would be scheduled to arrive at the driver change point (e.g. Donnybrook or at Parnell Square) at a particular time, and may for one reason or another arrive there early, quite possible given that they do not have specific timings along the route.

The driver taking over could have been on his/her break and may have started it on time - should they then cut it short because the bus has arrived early? They are as entitled to their break as much as anyone else.

The schedules try to allow for buses not waiting very long, but it doesn't always work out. I would hope that the introduction of the AVLC system will give the schedulers the accurate information on bus running times that will in course keep this sort of thing to a minimum, as it is very frustrating for passengers to have to wait for the new driver to arrive.

Alun

The 145 is a PITA in this regard too when it stops at Bray Dart Station for a driver change. Generally I try and avoid buses that go via the Dart Station, but often they don't actually put that info on their displays, and any attampt to second guess which actual bus is going to stop at the station based on the timetable is a total waste of effort, as usual. The frequency of the 145 is such that if you happen to get on the 'wrong' bus, the one immediately behind will have overtaken you and arrived at your final destination long before the driver has changed on your bus.

There's also no information given by the driver as to what's happening for people who aren't aware of what's going on. Many is the time I've had to reassure nervous tourists or just people from outside the area that, yes, the bus will eventually move off again

KC61

Alun wrote: »

The 145 is a PITA in this regard too when it stops at Bray Dart Station for a driver change. Generally I try and avoid buses that go via the Dart Station, but often they don't actually put that info on their displays, and any attampt to second guess which actual bus is going to stop at the station based on the timetable is a total waste of effort, as usual. The frequency of the 145 is such that if you happen to get on the 'wrong' bus, the one immediately behind will have overtaken you and arrived at your final destination long before the driver has changed on your bus.

There's also no information given by the driver as to what's happening for people who aren't aware of what's going on. Many is the time I've had to reassure nervous tourists or just people from outside the area that, yes, the bus will eventually move off again

This is the one significant flaws in the 145 schedule.

While there are evenly spaced departures from the terminus (in general) the routing of some buses via Bray Station means that the service interval between buses between Bray Station and City Centre inbound and between Bray Station and Kilmacanogue can be seriously distorted. While the buses could leave the terminus 10 minutes apart, one going via the station can mean a 20 minute gap before two buses come together.

For me this one is a key issue that needs to be addressed by the network review. Either all the buses should go via the station or the driver change should take place on Bray Main Street. This is the sort of problem that puts people off using the bus.

Similar problems happen at Skerries on the 33/33a where there is no indication that some buses go via Skerries Station for a driver change. In the schedule, buses are given 1 hour 45 minutes to get to Skerries from the city regardless of the time of day and may actually sometimes make it there in 1 hour 20 minutes, meaning that passengers for Balbriggan may have to wait 25 minutes until the new driver arrives. Sometimes the original driver will just keep going to Balbriggan and then return out of service to Skerries to hand over, but others will wait at the Station.

In that case it would be far more sensible for the driver changes to happen on inbound services only where it is fairly easy to predict what time the bus would be at Skerries Station.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Well there is actually - he may not be due to take up at that time - i.e. the bus could be early.

The buses would be scheduled to arrive at the driver change point (e.g. Donnybrook or at Parnell Square) at a particular time, and may for one reason or another arrive there early, quite possible given that they do not have specific timings along the route.

The driver taking over could have been on his/her break and may have started it on time - should they then cut it short because the bus has arrived early? They are as entitled to their break as much as anyone else.

The schedules try to allow for buses not waiting very long, but it doesn't always work out. I would hope that the introduction of the AVLC system will give the schedulers the accurate information on bus running times that will in course keep this sort of thing to a minimum, as it is very frustrating for passengers to have to wait for the new driver to arrive.

In my experience buses are rarely ever on time and even more rarely early. Even when you build in the overly generous timetable distances. A good example I have learned from experience is that it takes a 7 15 mins to get from Loughlinstown/Cherrywood to midway up Churchview Road! A drive of perhaps 3 mins and allowing 5 to pick up passengers still equals only half that time :rolleyes:

The situation which Alun has outlined above is totally unacceptable. For a bus to divert off its marked route and sit in Bray station just to facilitate a driver change because they cannot be bothered to get to a stop on the buses route is unbelievable.

Alun

KC61 wrote: »

For me this one is a key issue that needs to be addressed by the network review. Either all the buses should go via the station or the driver change should take place on Bray Main Street. This is the sort of problem that puts people off using the bus.

Glad you agree! On those rare occasions that I actually want to go to the station from home, say to take a Dart somewhere for which it's more convenient than the bus, it's a complete lottery trying to select a departure that's actually going that way. Sometimes I'll ask the driver if he's going to the station, he'll say no, but the bus behind him is, and if I'm stupid enough to wait for it, 9 times out of 10 it won't.

Mind you, the cost of travelling on the bus from my house to the station, a distance of only 3km, when compared to the cost of travelling all the way into Dublin, isn't exactly an incentive either.

paulm17781

Surely, common sense would dictate that the driver tells passengers he is going to change in X minutes and there is another bus Y minutes behind which he recommends people get (if X > Y). Of course I don't see Dublin bus ever doing anything that suits customers in this way.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

In my experience buses are rarely ever on time and even more rarely early. Even when you build in the overly generous timetable distances. A good example I have learned from experience is that it takes a 7 15 mins to get from Loughlinstown/Cherrywood to midway up Churchview Road! A drive of perhaps 3 mins and allowing 5 to pick up passengers still equals only half that time :rolleyes:

The situation which Alun has outlined above is totally unacceptable. For a bus to divert off its marked route and sit in Bray station just to facilitate a driver change because they cannot be bothered to get to a stop on the buses route is unbelievable.

Just to clarify - the drivers are not diverting off-route by their own accord. The buses are scheduled to do so.

Many of the problems that are being quoted here are down to Dublin Bus not having the proper management tools to manage the business properly. They have had no proper monitoring system since the AVM system was decommissioned in the 1990s. The introduction of the AVLC system (based on GPS) will provide the schedulers finally with accurate information on bus running times. The funding for this system was withheld by government until now. Therefore the schedulers have been estimating how long the bus will take to get to a changeover point - sometimes they've got it right - other times they have not.

As far as buses never being on time or early - I would disagree with you. Yes there is a problem with some drivers leaving early or late, but as someone who takes four buses a day across the city to/from work, going through the city centre, I do find that by and large the buses do operate when they are supposed to. My route can afford me the opportunity to sample four garage's operations. I managed to draw up a composite inbound schedule for myself for the Lucan QBC, based on how long I estimated the buses would take from their respective termini to get to my stop. By and large they are very consistent - I take buses at different times so I'm not getting the same bus every day.

Similarly, from experience I would gauge that it takes a southbound 16 25/30 minutes to get to O'Connell Street off-peak and 35/40 minutes in the peak, and in practice that's what happens. The schedule (based on my observations) appears to allow for 30 minutes to get to Parnell Square off-peak for driver changes, which means there could be a 5-7 minute wait at Parnell Square if the 2nd driver arrives at the scheduled time. Many times the drivers do arrive early and the bus is not left waiting.

I think that it is important to emphasise that the instances of buses waiting for the second driver are not generally because he/she is late, but rather that the bus has arrived at the changeover point earlier than the scheduler estimated it would. This can be down to poor scheduling (which should be addressed by the rollout of the new AVLC system) or down to the bus getting a far clearer run from the terminus to the changeover point.

Both the network review process and the AVLC are key in addressing these flaws.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

Surely, common sense would dictate that the driver tells passengers he is going to change in X minutes and there is another bus Y minutes behind which he recommends people get (if X > Y). Of course I don't see Dublin bus ever doing anything that suits customers in this way.

It could be a tad difficult for a driver to estimate he is going to arrive early at Bray Station when he is in the city centre - he has no idea of what the traffic conditions might be like further along the route.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

It could be a tad difficult for a driver to estimate he is going to arrive early at Bray Station when he is in the city centre - he has no idea of what the traffic conditions might be like further along the route.

I've been stuck at Donnybrook church (during F'ing rush hour) waiting for a driver change. I would imagine it would be simple for a driver to radio the garage, say he's nearly there and look for an update on the next closest bus. In fact I do not understand why this is not done.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

I've been stuck at Donnybrook church (during F'ing rush hour) waiting for a driver change. I would imagine it would be simple for a driver to radio the garage, say he's nearly there and look for an update on the next closest bus. In fact I do not understand why this is not done.

Unfortunately to operate a full bus service some driver changes do have to take place during the evening peak (generally on the larger routes) - it's far from ideal but if you are going to have to a full service it may be required.

There does need to be some culture change to focus on customers - but with the AVLC rollout the controllers will finally be able to implement regulation on a far more practical basis than at present.

To be fair to the driver - his job is to drive the bus - not control the other ones.

As I've said the fundamental problem has been a lack of accurate information to control and plan the service. This is being addressed with the rollout of the AVLC system in 2010 and I do genuinely think that there will be massive benefits for everyone - be they the customer, managers, drivers from this. As I said above, one would like to think that the network review will address problems such as the 145s alluded to a few posts above.

Wibbler

KC61 wrote: »

The driver taking over could have been on his/her break and may have started it on time - should they then cut it short because the bus has arrived early? They are as entitled to their break as much as anyone else.

This one paragraph illustrates all that is wrong with union attitudes in companies like Dublin Bus. Potentially, there' a bus full of paying passengers sitting waiting for *one driver* to shift his ass and move the bus.

I'm not saying that drivers are not entitled to their breaks, but in situations like the above some flexibility and common sense wouldn't go amiss. Out here in the real world, such attitudes don't cut it.

Carroller16

Inspector getting on the bus at 9.30 every morning in D'olier St for a chat with the driver now that annoys me.

KC61

Wibbler wrote: »

This one paragraph illustrates all that is wrong with union attitudes in companies like Dublin Bus. Potentially, there' a bus full of paying passengers sitting waiting for *one driver* to shift his ass and move the bus.

I'm not saying that drivers are not entitled to their breaks, but in situations like the above some flexibility and common sense wouldn't go amiss. Out here in the real world, such attitudes don't cut it.

As I've said the problem is not really down to the drivers and their attitudes - it really boils down to the scheduling, and also to the fact that the company were denied the funding to implement the required system that would allow for realistic schedules to be developed and the daily bus operations to be monitored effectively.

People see the drivers not being there - but you need to look behind that to understand why.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

To be fair to the driver - his job is to drive the bus - not control the other ones.

If he's about to take his break, then his job isn't to drive the bus (at that point). To radio in and say where he is and ask is there another bus nearby (for his customers) shouldn't be an issue. If that falls out of his "job", I would be worried about the standard of "human" DB are employing where a little customer courtesy is too difficult to manage. Now, I'm sure management has never even asked them to do this (I blame CIE management more than employees) but there is no reason why passengers have to sit on a bus for 15 - 20 minutes while other buses pass them, other than a shoddy company with out of date practices.

Wibbler

KC61 wrote: »

People see the drivers not being there - but you need to look behind that to understand why.

What about individual initiative? Can drivers not look out a window, use a mobile phone, or even the bus radio to facilitate an efficient handover?

I understand that there are some issues involved, but at my company throwing one's hands in the air and saying "nothing can be done, because..." would be a one way street to a poor performance review, and if the attitude persisted, a P45. We're expected to see the bigger picture and show some initiative, especially when problems arise that impact our customers. I sometimes feel that that spirit is missing from much unionised employment.

Now, I fully support workers' rights not to be exploited by employers, but I also recognize that paying customers are the lifeblood of any business and their needs should be paramount. It really rattles my cage when, as a paying customer, I'm at the receiving end of poor customer service.

I'm not getting at you personally KC61; I understand that the bit about breaks in your post above was illustrative, but it did jar somewhat.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

If he's about to take his break, then his job isn't to drive the bus (at that point). To radio in and say where he is and ask is there another bus nearby (for his customers) shouldn't be an issue. If that falls out of his "job", I would be worried about the standard of "human" DB are employing where a little customer courtesy is too difficult to manage. Now, I'm sure management has never even asked them to do this (I blame CIE management more than employees) but there is no reason why passengers have to sit on a bus for 15 - 20 minutes while other buses pass them, other than a shoddy company with out of date practices.

I'm purely trying to explain why this happens. I get as frustrated as any other passenger when it happens.

Your last sentence sums it up. But the reason for it boils back to not having the management tools to avoid this happening. That boils back to governments denying them the money to do so.

Again I will say that I honestly believe that the full implementation of the AVLC system will address this problem.

KC61

Wibbler wrote: »

What about individual initiative? Can drivers not look out a window, use a mobile phone, or even the bus radio to facilitate an efficient handover?

I understand that there are some issues involved, but at my company throwing one's hands in the air and saying "nothing can be done, because..." would be a one way street to a poor performance review, and if the attitude persisted, a P45. We're expected to see the bigger picture and show some initiative, especially when problems arise that impact our customers. I sometimes feel that that spirit is missing from much unionised employment.

Now, I fully support workers' rights not to be exploited by employers, but I also recognize that paying customers are the lifeblood of any business and their needs should be paramount. It really rattles my cage when, as a paying customer, I'm at the receiving end of poor customer service.

I'm not getting at you personally KC61; I understand that the bit about breaks in your post above was illustrative, but it did jar somewhat.

No offence taken - but it is very easy to blame the drivers. At the end of the day the fundamental problem is that the schedule is too generous and that needs to be addressed.

antoinolachtnai

People have been scheduling bus services for over 80 years. You do not need AVLC to tightly manage driver changes and the like. It might be helpful, but it is by no means absolutely essential.

Wibbler

KC61 wrote: »

Again I will say that I honestly believe that the full implementation of the AVLC system will address this problem.

I wonder how much the unions at Dublin Bus would want in order to co-operate with AVLC, if it ever is funded?

Cookie_Monster

Wibbler wrote: »

I wonder how much the unions at Dublin Bus would want in order to co-operate with AVLC, if it ever is funded?

Given the current climate probably "only" 4-5%

KC61

Wibbler wrote: »

I wonder how much the unions at Dublin Bus would want in order to co-operate with AVLC, if it ever is funded?

Eh, it is currently being rolled out. There is no issue with it apparently.

Alun

KC61 wrote: »

Eh, it is currently being rolled out. There is no issue with it apparently.

It being based on GPS technology, some interesting applications could be made of the data it collects. Again the 145 comes to mind, esp. along the road between Bray and Shankill ... 62km/h in a 50km/h limit anyone?

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

People have been scheduling bus services for over 80 years. You do not need AVLC to tightly manage driver changes and the like. It might be helpful, but it is by no means absolutely essential.

Indeed they have - but the old Dublin Bus AVM system was decommissioned on the basis that funding for the new system was approved 10 years ago.

Funding for the new system was then retracted and since then, the only method of accurately measuring running times has been to:
a) Ask the driver over the radio
b) Analyse the ticket machine data
c) Physical Observation

That is hardly the best way to run a business???

The new AVLC is being rolled out firstly on the 123 route, and then across all Summerhill routes, before being extended across the entire fleet and network.

AVLC will provide fully accurate information for controllers to run the business on a daily basis and make changes as necessary, and schedulers to produce schedules that are realistic and efficient.

GTE

Captain Morgan wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thats ridiculous!
Does that happen on other routes? I never thought that would happen :O

antoinolachtnai

KC61 wrote: »

a) Ask the driver over the radio
b) Analyse the ticket machine data
c) Physical Observation

That is hardly the best way to run a business???

Maybe it's not great, but it is perfectly adequate to fix the donnybrook garage 46A problem. I remember this going on with the 46A in 1989, when there were still conductors on that route. Surely it would not be beyond the wit of man to at least sort out this one particular route over the course of 20 years? This is supposed to be the flagship route and is less effected by congestion than any other route.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

b) Analyse the ticket machine data
.

is that not a very good way of getting loong term quantifiyable data for routes?

Then again it does rely on the driver updating the stop and stage data... so I suppose its flawed in that many seem not too.