Britain needs a Thatcher

Permabear · 22-02-2010 6:44pm

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imme · 22-02-2010 6:44pm

when she Education Secretary in Ted Heath's 1970-1973 administration she earned the jingle: Thatcher Thatcher Milk Snatcher.:rolleyes:

odonnell · 22-02-2010 6:45pm

I agree and disagree. As a scot who lived through Thatcher...she might have saved England I dont know..., but she broke Scotland. Removing the troops from silly wars would be a good start in reducing the deficit. Having a PM with a backbone would also be a good follow up.

Shea O'Meara · 22-02-2010 6:47pm

Privatisation of state companies may turn a profit in the short term, but drains monies in other areas, (welfare, pension pay-offs, retraining of the newly unemployed). Also when talking of, let's say a country's communications network, the Government can do little other than ask for favours which is ridiculous in my view, when considering the importance of such a field.

In a lot of threads we read how harsh times call for harsh measures and if welfare needs to be cut and people need to be let go, so be it. Anything to fix the economy. We should bear in mind the whole point of Government is to look after the people of it's nation. I'm not talking babysit, but every decision should be done in the best interests of the majority with an eye to the minority should they begin to fall though the Socio-economic cracks. It's a balancing act, but I would prefer an economy that ticks along and caters for as many people as possible than an environment where there's boom and bust with no tangible evidence of a longterm betterment for that nations population.

Valmont · 22-02-2010 6:58pm

Is it really the government's job to look after the people? Why? Have you ever considered that the minority is not those falling through the cracks but the high earners paying the most tax? The captains of industry? In this case, the will of the majority takes on a more nefarious tone.

Permabear · 22-02-2010 7:00pm

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Permabear · 22-02-2010 7:13pm

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imme · 22-02-2010 7:19pm

actually the role of government changes from government to government. Each government sets it's own goals and things to be achieved. Some governments believe in directing the economy some don't. Some governments believe financial regulation is important, others don't.

Simple as.;)

nyarlothothep · 22-02-2010 7:34pm

Did Thatcher review a scientific report on the pros and cons of milk consumption vis a vis cost benifit?

Also new labour are fairly neo liberal and centre right, though not far right like thatchers admin, they don't represent the left at all.

deadhead13 · 22-02-2010 7:37pm

The one thing that would guarantee the Conservative Party losing the upcoming election would be David Cameron declaring himself a devote Thatherite. The OP's question is a bit academic really because no such person would get elected.

whynotwhycanti · 22-02-2010 8:11pm

You know absolutely nothing about me yet can arrogantly call me a socialist and try and give me some sort of condescending ’socialist for dummies’ lecture. If you really want to know, I work for a private company in apart of Dublin city that is full of drunks collecting welfare from a post office beside me, while I struggle by with higher taxes and a pay cut. Sure our current situation in this country is thanks to the faultless benefits of the capitalist system.
I haven’t come on here assuming you’re some sort of hardcore capitalist and tried to spoon feed you the disadvantages of that type of ideology. I am well aware of the disadvantages of socialism as I am aware of disadvantages of capitalism. My point still remains the same though.

Shea O'Meara · 22-02-2010 8:57pm

Okay, explain:

So to ensure protection both at home and abroad, of our freedoms our liberties and to enable us to thrive under our own steam. So it is, (I made a point of saying not babysit).

I totally agree.

Shea O'Meara · 22-02-2010 9:07pm

They are elected as they (hard to believe I know) are judged best to make decisions for the betterment of society as a whole. In using 'the minority' I refer to those with the quietest voice, those who a government need not pander to for votes. I understand what you're saying, but I've more sympathy for a guy living in a box than I do for someone getting screwed by high taxation. It's not fair, but for some it's a genuine life or death situation.

Permabear · 22-02-2010 9:11pm

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Mike 1972 · 22-02-2010 9:32pm

The British People did nothing of the sort.

At their peak the Tories under Thatcher got 42% of the vote.

Hardly a ringing endorsment by the British people.

Permabear · 22-02-2010 10:21pm

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A Dub in Glasgo · 22-02-2010 10:29pm

The majority of the British public voted for somebody other than Thatcher?

Permabear · 22-02-2010 10:38pm

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imme · 22-02-2010 10:42pm

this is all gone very far from the OP's post that there should be a slash and burn PM in a country not our own:rolleyes:

Joey the lips · 23-02-2010 9:31am

She was not so popular most of her vote however came from the middle-upperclass area's which tends to be the voteing strong area.

Flamed Diving · 23-02-2010 1:00pm

Great work, DF.

Mike 1972 · 23-02-2010 9:03pm

So (having established that the British electoral system pretty much stinks) what's your point?

and wasnt there a national Government for most of WW2 ?

Permabear · 23-02-2010 9:43pm

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Mike 1972 · 23-02-2010 9:51pm

The fact that the majority of the electorate voted against Thatchers government at every opportunity is hardly a myth.

This thread is about Thatcher is it not ?

Permabear · 23-02-2010 10:48pm

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Mike 1972 · 23-02-2010 11:03pm

You can if you like. Im not going to dispute it

65 years ?

Hardly.

If the UK had an electoral system in which the will of the electorate was properly represented All governments since the early 1930s would most likely have been minority and/or Coalition governments.

In the unlikely event of Thatcher coming to power in such a scenario. It is almost certain that she wouldn’t have remained in power for very long.

Permabear · 23-02-2010 11:52pm

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kev9100 · 24-02-2010 12:00am

He never said that the Thatcher Governments were illegitimate, he was merely making that the point that the current UK electoral system is highly inadequate and does not give a fair reflection of the will of the people. Like you said in an earlier post, Labour received 35.7% of the vote in 05 election yet they were still had a majority in parliament. How is that fair?

imme · 24-02-2010 12:02am

Who'd have thought a British Prime Minister of 20-years ago would engender such debate on a forum based in Ireland, engender such wholehearted devotion.

Thatcher was a product of her time. We'll never see her like again, nor anyone like her.

Permabear · 24-02-2010 12:22am

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silverharp · 24-02-2010 12:25am

how can you say that? I would of thought that in an era of potential sovereign defaults and undeliverable welfare promises, consensus politics would give way to politics that require politicians with a refroming mindset?

imme · 24-02-2010 12:28am

consensus politics? is this the era of consensus politics in the UK. Were Blair and William Hague, Michael Howard involved in a consensus?

Permabear · 24-02-2010 12:31am

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imme · 24-02-2010 12:47am

Is Ireland in a period of union militancy and big government and rampant welfarism (whatever that is, I guess it's another right wing US term like statism:rolleyes: or progressivism:rolleyes:)
Your economic ideas are well known to anyone who posts here or reads here DF, you're quite the broken record. You're entitled to your opinion as is every other poster/reader.
If we continue your UK & US analogies would it be true to say that in the Irish context we had to 'suffer'

through Cosgrave/Corish to get the tax cutting good old days of Lynch. Unless my reading of history is inaccurate Callaghan gave way to Thatcher.

Thatcher a product of the enlightenment? Was she not 200-years late then???

Thatcher also sought to be a populist politician when it suited her, regardless of whether it agreed with her political philosophy.

silverharp · 24-02-2010 12:48am

Maybe wrong word, centerists. Governments have been trading off an economic uptrend for the past 20 years so they have had little to do in terms of making tough decisions. It really would have made no difference who was in power since Major

imme · 24-02-2010 12:49am

This thread is asking if Britain needs a Thatcher.

Permabear · 24-02-2010 12:56am

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Mike 1972 · 24-02-2010 1:00am

What is the title of this thread again ?

imme · 24-02-2010 1:07am

I'm still unclear on what rampant welfarism is, it's a nice soundbite all the same. I wonder does it exist in countries other than Ireland. Maybe we're unique. Maybe in much the same way as other economies sought to unravel the economic marvel/miracle that was the Celtic Tiger maybe other countries will seek to emulate our rampant welfarism.

Ah, I don't know that I'll 'ignore' you DF, the boards might read light a reactionary/right wing text book then:D

Thatcher's espousal of the Enlightenment wasn't manifested in her views on Apartheid in South Africa, although she was selective when it suited, then again she was a politician.

If she'd been around at the time of the Enlightenment she'd probably have been burned at the stake.

whynotwhycanti · 24-02-2010 11:30am

She was elected approx a year after the falkland war. Prior to this her approval ratings were terrible mainly due to the ridiculous levels of unemplyment but the success of the war and the recovering economy carried her through the election.

Lockstep · 24-02-2010 12:17pm

Ah the age old of argument of Thatcher saving Britain. I had this argument with someone on another forum. Points summarised and taken from there.

Here's why I can't stand the woman (I am a proud owner of an I Still Hate Thatcher Tshirt)

*inflation running at 6-12% during her reign
*Retail Price Index increasing by 89% over the 80s (added on to rampant house price inflations)
*Unemployment in 1979-1.4million.
Unemployment in 1982-3 million
Unemployment in 1985;3.1million
*When she came into power, there were 5 people chasing each vacancy.
Under her reign, this increased to 32 people. Not progress. Especially in
areas like Northern Ireland where unemployment ran at 20%. Scotland and North Britain had figures of 15-16%. SouthEast England; 10%.
to turn Britain into the 2nd highest unemployment in the world (after
BElgium)
*A rather famous letter to the Times in 1981 had 365 economists lambasting
her economic policies as well as her raising interest rates creating a housing
market that makes even Ireland look bad.
*Between 1970 and 1973, British GDP growth increased from 2% to 8%
Between 1976 and 1979, British inflation was falling under 10%, it peaked in 1980 at 20% then fell although still remaining.
Well unemployment in 1972 topped 1million, Thatcher managed to more than triple this figure while in office.
Also. the average GDP per capita growth was 2.303 in the 1970s, average GDP growth in the 1980s was 2.31.
*her policies caused the pound to be devalued so much that in 1985, it was almost equal to the dollar (Americans buying up England left, right and centre)
*while direct taxation decreased, indirect taxation increased with an overall tax burden going up by 3.5%
*
I rechecked the Penn World Tables data for British real GDP growth rate per capita (1979-1990) and it came to 26.4% (and that's including the year of 1970 as a whole, despite Thatcher only coming in halfway through the year, so frankly a more accurate number would be 23.7%), the British real GDP growth rate per capita (1970-1979) amounted to 23.03%.
Well done Thatcher, even when you're not facing two oil crises (as leaders in the 1970s did), you managed to increase British real GDP growth rate per capita by around 0.7%. Fantastic achievement.
*By 1990, Britain had imported £20.31billions worth more than she could sell exports, mortgage rates shot up to 15.4% (people were being chucked out of their homes left right and centre as well as 27% inflation
*We think our property bubble was bad? Under her, propety prices went through the roof. A Mrs Grace Newbold offered £36k for a converted shed in Knightsbridge (5ft6 by 11ft).
*

Eliot Rosewater · 24-02-2010 5:21pm

As opposed to an average of 13%, and a maximum of 25%, during the preceding decade. Source: Bank of England. "Inflation didnt slow until 1983". Second source that tabulates figures.

Source? Or shall we take the Bank of Englands figures?

You cant have your cake and eat it too, Im afraid. Your lambasting Thatcher for not getting involved in the economy; presumably you believe she should have. Yet you also give out about her raising tax. There are two contradictory ideals there.

Permabear · 24-02-2010 5:47pm

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Lockstep · 24-02-2010 6:17pm

You mean the time of the Oil Crisis?
Surprisingly, inflation was worse then.
The link also claims that many other countries were affected.

I was going by Bized;
1976-1979
peaks at 1980 at 20%

No, I was responding to the age old claim that Thatcher lowered taxes, benefitting the economy.

Lockstep · 24-02-2010 6:52pm

Whyever not? You and I both spend enough time on Boards.ie so attempting to claim that you somehow lack time is fairly disingenous.

Fair enough, I am unable to find my original source. Sucks I know, I really need to start saving these.

Actually DF, we clearly see the mess inherited by the Wilson government. The 1973 Oil Shock wreaked havoc on the world economy, with the Wilson government taking office a few months after it happened. The inflation peaked in 1975 and dropped afterwards (until the 2nd energy crisis in 1979) when it rose again, hell even the Wilson government managed to bring down inflation to double digits before that doozy happened again.

You're right, I'm unable to find my original source which is a pain in the hole.
Then again, the 1970s was a blackspot for countries in general,
Interestingly, it appears that low inflation correlates with high unemployment;
1983; inflation down to 4.6%; unemployment of 3million Also the pound was devalued, manafacturing below 1979 levels
1986; inflation of 3.4%; unemployment peak

It appears that the "I still love Thatcher" tshirt wearers suffer from two main problems;
1) A complete unwillingness to accept the damage Thatcher did to the British economy. Rampant unemployment, plunging manafacturing and devaluation of the pound. Any criticisms are always met with claims about her inflation success.]
2) Any complaints about the above are met with the "it was necessary medicine". Which is strange as that's the exact same argument I've heard used by Stalinists in justifying all the terrible things done in the USSR.
Still, if that's all she achieved, fair play to her.

Actually, it's because it was an old post and I no longer have centralised citations.. I'm happy to try and refind my stats, but trying to do them all at once is extremely difficult. If someone has an issue with a particular point, then grand so, I'll do my best to back it up.

Given that we're both regulars on the Politics forum, the standard response to any claim is "Citations please".

Permabear · 24-02-2010 7:47pm

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imme · 24-02-2010 11:27pm

For general information: James Callaghan was Prime Minister before Thatcher.
He was Prime Minister for three years between April '76 and May'79. Is this not common knowledge:rolleyes:

trapsagenius · 24-02-2010 11:35pm

I don't really like this "inherited" problem argument-not only with Thatcher but with any politician.A politician failing to deal with an inherited problem is as bad as a politician who creates his/her own problem and fails to deal with it, in my book.

Permabear · 25-02-2010 12:01am

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imme · 25-02-2010 12:17am

If Britain needs a politician like Thatcher why don't the UK Conservatives say that they will follow policies similar to those espoused by Thatcher 20 or 30 years ago. The current UK Conservative party is sure to never use the name Thatcher in any of their policies/objectives that they publish.
This leads me to believe that the Thatcher legacy is not popular in the UK and that it's a vote loser.

Britain needs a Thatcher

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