Seperate Club Forums

Xavi6

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

You're looking at it from a different perspective. The sub-fora would not belong to fans of that club. They'd merely be a category to better organise discussion.

Just as the Liverpool superthread does not belong to Liverpool fans, and just as Liverpool fans accept Man City fans to mod their thread, so too would the case be with the sub-fora.

I'd have no problems with any of the current mods - or any of a number of rival posters - modding a hypothetical Liverpool sub-forum. At the end of the day, we all want to discuss football in a sensible way, and we should all trust each other enough to be grown-up and fair about things.

(Obviously I wouldn't want the militant fanboys like Mr.Alan or Boggles anywhere near ModCP on any forum!)

That's all well and good but I think you're being a tad too idealistic.

Not to pick on one particular set of fans but just on the bit I have highlighted, when PHB stepped down as mod, how much whining did we hear about him not being replaced by a United supporting mod?

That coupled with the fact that the next mod in line, LuckyLoyd, happened to be a Liverpool fan caused a lot headaches and moaning.

Now imagine that on a scale in a forum that is club specific no matter what way you try dress it up as an open invitation to all fans.

LuckyLloyd

5starpool wrote: »

I don't think that ius what Lloyd is saying. What he is saying (imo) is that what the boards soccer forum 'does' is pretty unique, whereas there are countless club only forums out there (irishkop being one of those). If someone really doesn't like the boards format one there are club only ones available if boards doesn't meet their needs, but if boards soccer forum split into smaller bits, while this would make you and people who wish this to happen happy, those that are unhappy with it cannot go to one of the other similar places as they don't exist.

This. I should hire you on retainer.

Dont be at yourself

Xavi6 wrote: »

That's all well and good but I think you're being a tad too idealistic.

Not to pick on one particular set of fans but just on the bit I have highlighted, when PHB stepped down as mod, how much whining did we hear about him not being replaced by a United supporting mod?

That coupled with the fact that the next mod in line, LuckyLoyd, happened to be a Liverpool fan caused a lot headaches and moaning.

Now imagine that on a scale in a forum that is club specific no matter what way you try dress it up as an open invitation to all fans.

Yes, there was whining when mods were appointed, but that always happens, on every forum. At the end of the day, mods live and die based on their actions, not their allegiances, and the soccer communities here have shown that they're happy to be modded by anybody, as long as the modding is fair and consistent.

Maybe I am being idealistic. But I also think you're being too pessimistic. Inevitably, the reality would be somewhere in between. And that in itself would be an improvement!

Time Magazine

Not to backseat mod here but I think modding is off-topic unless we agree in principle that these forums should be made.

I agree that modding may be a practical issue that may be too big to overcome, but imho this tangent is preventing what has been a constructive debate about the structure of the forum(s).

leninbenjamin

Time Magazine wrote: »

Not to backseat mod here but I think modding is off-topic unless we agree in principle that these forums should be made.

I agree that modding may be a practical issue that may be too big to overcome, but imho this tangent is preventing what has been a constructive debate about the structure of the forum(s).

Discussion of moderation is essential at this stage, as how said forums will be moderated will have a massive role to play in how that forum will function and thus the overall validity of the idea.

For the record, my backing for subforums for teams is for exactly that, subforums of the main soccer forum. I want to see the same charter and same moderating team responsible for them as the main forum. This should at least add a bit of grounding to the communities to prevent the "circle jerk love-in" everyone is afraid of. Secondly, the moderators workload would actually be less imo as threads become easier to follow so I don't see why the existing mods structure couldn't remain in place.

I wont support it if people are added to the moderating ticket just because of who they support.

LuckyLloyd

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Discussion of moderation is essential at this stage, as how said forums will be moderated will have a massive role to play in how that forum will function and thus the overall validity of the idea.

For the record, my backing for subforums for teams is for exactly that, subforums of the main soccer forum. I want to see the same charter and same moderating team responsible for them as the main forum. This should at least add a bit of grounding to the communities to prevent the "circle jerk love-in" everyone is afraid of. Secondly, the moderators workload would actually be less imo as threads become easier to follow so I don't see why the existing mods structure couldn't remain in place.

I wont support it if people are added to the moderating ticket just because of who they support.

There is a problem with that. The character of the forum would change dramatically and I'm not sure you could count upon all the members of the current team bothering to stay on if it happened, nor could you assume that the current charter and rules of conduct as being appropriate for a new landscape.

Dub13

Xavi6 has already stated that he would not mod the forum any longer if it was split,I would be the same.As most people know I am the Admin/owner of Irishkop which also takes up a lot of my time,I don't mind modding soccer here on boards as its different.But if it was to become club specific I would be basically just modding another Liverpool forum and I don't need that.

Time Magazine

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Discussion of moderation is essential at this stage, as how said forums will be moderated will have a massive role to play in how that forum will function and thus the overall validity of the idea.

Point taken.

I could see it going either way. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong here folks) but the mods at the moment mostly steer clear of the superthreads unless there's a reported post. That approach could apply to sub-forums.

Alternatively, you could appoint new mods on the basis that they'd be suitable for the job. You'd expect that would mean that they're supporters of the team but it would also have to mean that they're not partisan in their modding, i.e. they don't scare off others. I mod Economics and I'm an economist so obviously if someone comes in and starts an "Economists are eejits" thread (like here or here) I tend to agree with the regulars, but I like to think that we're still welcoming to such outsiders. In fact I recently got into a debate with a mod of a completely unrelated forum (won't name out of courtesy) because he was editing my posts for being upsetting to the regulars of that forum. I'm just referencing this to show that I'm completely against that sort of thing so I agree fair and objective mods are important. I have no problems whatsoever with the current mods of Soccer so unless they weren't happy to continue their good work would I think there's a need for new mods.

As for the issue of whether Bolton/Wigan forums be made, that is already kind of dealt with by if a superthread is made. It's always been said here that a Mustard forum does not mean there'll be a Ketchup forum and that's a rule I agree with. I never argued for a Villa forum on the basis of the Spurs forum, I just think there should be both. I don't think there would be much use for a Crumlin U-12s forum because there isn't a pretty active Crumlin U-12s community. There is a pretty active Villa Thread gang and a few of us now know each other from going to the pub to watch matches etc. That's what the Soccer forum means to me, not so much the inter-club thing.

leninbenjamin

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is a problem with that. The character of the forum would change dramatically and I'm not sure you could count upon all the members of the current team bothering to stay on if it happened, nor could you assume that the current charter and rules of conduct as being appropriate for a new landscape.

You've misunderstood me. I'm just saying that a single rule set should carry across to all forums, not necessarily the existing rule set. Same for the moderation team (no disrespect intended towards Xavi and Dub13 mind).

I liked PHBs post from way back, summed up my feelings at the time perfectly. But things have changed for me since then. The single community that I joined, that I engaged with, that I learned from has become so fragmented that I no longer think of it as such. It's lost it's personality, the forum to me now is just a catch all for soccer discussion. It used be possible to go into the Superthreads and have a good debate with fans from differing backgrounds but that ceased being possible a long time ago. Now we're even seeing the cross-over threads are going to **** after 5 minutes. I just don't think the forum is sustainable in its current format.

Lloyd takes issue with the 'go with the flow' remark earlier, but I think it's valid. I've seen quite a number of communities simply die overnight because they refused to adapt. This is the internet, the ultimate disposable society.

Subforums can be part of the process to satisfy the changing demands and bring back the personality. It keeps the growing number circle-jerkers in their own little corner, it brings more structure and order to the discussions, it gives more forum space to the neutral/crossover discussions and most importantly it lets fan groups engage with each other on their own terms, meaning that crossover discussion is likely to be hell of a lot more constructive.

But for it to work steps have to be taken to ensure the respective communities don't descend too much into themselves. A shared set of logical rules giving everyone the same rights is needed (regardless of location). A single united moderating team with a shared view on the forums' purpose would be essential.

And I'm no fool, I know subforums could backfire if implemented badly and aggravate the fan rivalries and factionalization in the forum further. But tbh the current forum is so 'broken' I think it's worth the risk.

Btw, are any admins actually reading this? Is this being taken seriously or am I wasting my keystrokes?

mike65

The mere fact this thread is still open suggests the Admins are reading it.

Who are these Circle Jerks btw? You'd swear the forum was full of them, it appears to be the first and maybe last line of defence by those who wish to maintain the status quo.

LuckyLloyd

leninbenjamin wrote: »

You've misunderstood me. I'm just saying that a single rule set should carry across to all forums, not necessarily the existing rule set. Same for the moderation team (no disrespect intended towards Xavi and Dub13 mind).

I liked PHBs post from way back, summed up my feelings at the time perfectly. But things have changed for me since then. The single community that I joined, that I engaged with, that I learned from has become so fragmented that I no longer think of it as such. It's lost it's personality, the forum to me now is just a catch all for soccer discussion. It used be possible to go into the Superthreads and have a good debate with fans from differing backgrounds but that ceased being possible a long time ago. Now we're even seeing the cross-over threads are going to **** after 5 minutes. I just don't think the forum is sustainable in its current format.

Lloyd takes issue with the 'go with the flow' remark earlier, but I think it's valid. I've seen quite a number of communities simply die overnight because they refused to adapt. This is the internet, the ultimate disposable society.

Subforums can be part of the process to satisfy the changing demands and bring back the personality. It keeps the growing number circle-jerkers in their own little corner, it brings more structure and order to the discussions, it gives more forum space to the neutral/crossover discussions and most importantly it lets fan groups engage with each other on their own terms, meaning that crossover discussion is likely to be hell of a lot more constructive.

But for it to work steps have to be taken to ensure the respective communities don't descend too much into themselves. A shared set of logical rules giving everyone the same rights is needed (regardless of location). A single united moderating team with a shared view on the forums' purpose would be essential.

And I'm no fool, I know subforums could backfire if implemented badly and aggravate the fan rivalries and factionalization in the forum further. But tbh the current forum is so 'broken' I think it's worth the risk.

Btw, are any admins actually reading this? Is this being taken seriously or am I wasting my keystrokes?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055788087&page=3

Concluding post:

Zaph wrote:

OK, having consulted with the other admins and the soccer mods, I'm afraid that this request is denied.

While most forum rejections are fairly self-evident, I suspect that this one may generate a bit of debate, so to avoid countless Feedback threads and PMs I'm going to explain the rationale behind the decision.

- The main soccer forum will suffer. The superthreads may not be entirely satisfactory, but they do attract large numbers of posters to the forum, and this spills over onto other threads to generate further traffic and content. The creation of a dedicated forum for your club gives you little reason to venture outside of it, you'll have everything you want pertaining to your club in a single forum. Creating forums for the two most popular clubs would inevitably take away a huge number of posters from the main forum. And while it's all very well individuals saying that they'll continue to frequent the main forum, it's unlikely that they will in anything like the same numbers as at present. This would be further compounded by the inevitable requests for more club-specific forums should these two be granted.

- Moderation would be almost impossible. If I have a forum for club A and I support club B, why am I going to want to moderate club A's forum? Inevitably the mods will support the team whose forum it is, and that throws open the whole issue of impartiality and whether they would end up permitting more than an impartial mod. I also can't see there being anything like the number of reported posts that we have now as name-calling, etc., may become more acceptable when everyone's on the same side.

Now I know a lot of people will be disappointed by this, but please note that any threads in Soccer, Feedback or Help Desk on the matter will be closed immediately as this decision is final.

If the soccer forum as it is died, then fair enough. We can all take off to club specific ones elsewhere.

CHD

Time Magazine wrote: »

Bit of a hand grenade here, and I know there are differences here, but does anyone see the similarities of this situation with the great Surfing Forum debacle of 2007?

"Why would people want a forum just for their club? It won't improve anything. If you want to see a forum dedicated to your team just use google, then comeback to the soccer forum where it is 10 times better." translates to me as "It's our Soccer forum and you're not allowed change that. Tough if you want your own place to discuss things. Get lost, go somewhere else. This is our spot and we consider it sacred."

Yeah your post is pretty stupid. It is nothing like it. They can discuss all they want in the forum already in the superthread. The geniuses who want a forum for their club don't seem to realise that the only difference will be subjects will be split into threads instead of all being merged into one big thread. That is needless and will take away from the forum as a whole. But the people don't think, ever. They want their own forum for the wrong reasons, something they think they will own and have control over. They won't and the admins won't grant one so they really should just lock this up and let people wast their time elsewhere on the site.

Boston

For what it is worth, Lloyd is correct in his analysis. If you create club forums the centre will shift away from the soccer forum, that that forum will die. New, better, forums may come out of the ashes of the old forum. But don't think both can co-exist.

pickarooney

Does the average boardsie soccer fan really only care about his or her club? I find it hard to understand why anyone would just ignore the main soccer forum and go talk about Chelsea or whoever all day, every day. Surely most, if not all soccer fans have an active interest in the game in general?

edit: just checked - only 6 out of the 40 threads on the first page are not superthreads and most of those are tedious Manchester United v Liverpool snorefests. That's almost 4 whole pages at the default boards forum view setting, I reckon. It's practically a forum full of stickies. Clearly it's what people want to talk about though, so I can't see how it could be changed without annoying most of the regular users. I hate the mess myself but am in a minority.

If only there was some option to hide threads...

Spiritoftheseventies

Dub13 wrote: »

Xavi6 has already stated that he would not mod the forum any longer if it was split,I would be the same.As most people know I am the Admin/owner of Irishkop which also takes up a lot of my time,I don't mind modding soccer here on boards as its different.But if it was to become club specific I would be basically just modding another Liverpool forum and I don't need that.

So why not get someone else to do it. No disrepecd but I dont really think what you do on Irish Kop should influence the decision. If anything i think having sub forums would make life easier. At is is every thread is flagged every poster is flagged. That leads to problems.

Dub13

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

So why not get someone else to do it. No disrepecd but I dont really think what you do on Irish Kop should influence the decision. If anything i think having sub forums would make life easier. At is is every thread is flagged every poster is flagged. That leads to problems.

I was pointing out that I would not mod the forum if it went that direction after it was suggested that the same mods should stay on.What other sites I am involved with will influence my decision and I am free to post up my thoughts just like everybody else.

Spiritoftheseventies

Dub13 wrote: »

I was pointing out that I would not mod the forum if it went that direction after it was suggested that the same mods should stay on.What other sites I am involved with will influence my decision and I am free to post up my thoughts just like everybody else.

I appreciate that but is the extra work load a factor that might put you off. I would not think there would not be too much work with seperate threads in a sub forum. It would if anything keep things more organised.
Do you think the main liverpool thread is well run at the moment. Five topics going on simultaneously at one time sometimes. Its not condusive to a proper debate. Can you list off the top of your head the last five topics mentioned in the superthread.
Fully appreciate the time you give here Dub13 but i dont think this is being given a proper or fair hearing.

Dudess

Xavi6 wrote: »

I for one look forward to the creation of the Wigan and Bolton forums.

Because those would have the same traffic as Liverpool/Man U/Arsenal forums? Surely demand plays a role in whether a forum is created or not (apart from Classic Rock it seems)?

Not that I'm in favour of the separate club forum idea - I'm not against it either though, just fence-sitting.

Spiritoftheseventies

Des wrote: »

Yes, the Soccer Forum is one of the largest boards on Boards.ie, dilute it out to team specific forums, and that will be gone.

There are already people who think the Team Threads are exclusively for supporters of that team, when they aren't.

Some people can't handle criticism of their team by rival supporters, in any way shape or form, why should Boards provide that when every team has it's very own dedicated fansites and forums. Why do people want yet another one on Boards?

Completely off the point Des. A poster posting on his team should be allowed to do so without the carry on that is going on at the moment. I have been told time and time again that its quality over quantity yet its double standards here. Would much prefer a peaceful sub forum than what we have at the moment. What has gone down in last six months has been unreal.

Frisbee

If Dub13 and Xavi6 would walk because of a switch to Club Specific forums that alone should mean it doesn't happen. Both are great Mods and the SF is much better for them.

Also if you want club specific forums then there is plenty of those elsewhere on the net, the soccer forum on boards is great because of it's uniqueness.

The majority of the time on club specific forums it just turns into a circle jerk about your club and mud slinging whenever something goes against you. At least with the Soccer forum on boards there is a healthy mix of posters from plenty of different clubs that leads to good reasoned debate, a variety of opinions and at least you get both sides of the argument instead of a one-sided b*tch fest.

Headshot

what has gone down in the last 6 months?

Spiritoftheseventies

Frisbee wrote: »

If Dub13 and Xavi6 would walk because of a switch to Club Specific forums that alone should mean it doesn't happen. Both are great Mods and the SF is much better for them.

Also if you want club specific forums then there is plenty of those elsewhere on the net, the soccer forum on boards is great because of it's uniqueness.

The majority of the time on club specific forums it just turns into a circle jerk about your club and mud slinging whenever something goes against you. At least with the Soccer forum on boards there is a healthy mix of posters from plenty of different clubs that leads to good reasoned debate, a variety of opinions and at least you get both sides of the argument instead of a one-sided b*tch fest.

The two should work together. Keep the match day threads on main thread but keep everything else for sub forums. It can work.

Dub13

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

I appreciate that but is the extra work load a factor that might put you off. I would not think there would not be too much work with seperate threads in a sub forum. It would if anything keep things more organised.
Do you think the main liverpool thread is well run at the moment. Five topics going on simultaneously at one time sometimes. Its not condusive to a proper debate. Can you list off the top of your head the last five topics mentioned in the superthread.
Fully appreciate the time you give here Dub13 but i dont think this is being given a proper or fair hearing.

Its nothing to do with the work load,if you read my post I like the soccer forum here because its different.The mix makes it different,if the mix is gone then it will no longer appeal to me as it would then become just like the many many other forums on the net and I post on to many as it is.

I could see myself not posting much at all if these changes were brought in,If I am not posting and visiting the site then why would I stay on as a mod..?

I am not a big fan of the super threads so don't post in them,I do pop in and out from time to time.Its simply crazy for you to suggest this is not been giving a proper or fair hearing,I appreciate you or not on the forum nor the site to long but the long time posters have seen this argument many many times before,we even had a vote on it not so long ago and it was rejected.

Spiritoftheseventies

Dub13 wrote: »

Its nothing to do with the work load,if you read my post I like the soccer forum here because its different.The mix makes it different,if the mix is gone then it will no longer appeal to me as it would then become just like the many many other forums on the net and I post on to many as it is.

I could see myself not posting much at all if these changes were brought in,If I am not posting and visiting the site then why would I stay on as a mod..?

I am not a big fan of the super threads so don't post in them,I do pop in and out from time to time.Its simply crazy for you to suggest this is not been giving a proper or fair hearing,I appreciate you or not on the forum nor the site to long but the long time posters have seen this argument many many times before,we even had a vote on it not so long ago and it was rejected.

The posters can come together on match days. Keep it for the main thread. You keep your sense of community. I have been posting long enough to know that the two main superthreads just dont work. Club threads that have been posted soon get lost after a few weeks. Its down to organization.
WIll give you an example. We had a seperate thread about the Liverpools transfer dealings. But because the thread went down in the queue it was out of sight. And then when it was brought up on superthread, posters then said it should be discussed on that seperate thread. Catch 22. Same with the Robbie Keane debate and so on. The superthread has no structure that i can see. It goes from a to b to c to a and so on.

Zaph

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

i dont think this is being given a proper or fair hearing.

This was discussed at length only recently following the forum requests for separate Liverpool and Man U forums, so to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. As has already been stated on multiple occasions, it will definitely not be happening in the short to medium term. I won't say never, but in order for that to happen there would have to be a major overhaul of the soccer forum first, and even then there's no guarantee of club specific forums being part of any new setup.

Dub13

I understand there are problem's with the super threads,sure I suggested a sub forum for them.But to break up the forum because of a problem with the super threads is crazy IMO.

Spiritoftheseventies,you suggest everything will be grand and fans can come together on match days,to be frank if I was not a mod I would be avoiding the forum on match days as its crazy as it is.You will IMO find the best debate on a midweek morrning/afternoon when lads are shooting the breeze with no games on mixing with each other,this will not happen if we brake the forum up.

Spiritoftheseventies

Zaph wrote: »

This was discussed at length only recently following the forum requests for separate Liverpool and Man U forums, so to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. As has already been stated on multiple occasions, it will definitely not be happening in the short to medium term. I won't say never, but in order for that to happen there would have to be a major overhaul of the soccer forum first, and even then there's no guarantee of club specific forums being part of any new setup.

In terms of the mechanics, are sub forums workable. Would they be easy to maintain once put in place.

Zaph

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

In terms of the mechanics, are sub forums workable. Would they be easy to maintain once put in place.

The argument against club-specific forums has nothing to do with the mechanics of creating sub-forums. From a purely technical point of view they'd just be another forum.

Spiritoftheseventies

Dub13 wrote: »

I understand there are problem's with the super threads,sure I suggested a sub forum for them.But to break up the forum because of a problem with the super threads is crazy IMO.

Spiritoftheseventies,you suggest everything will be grand and fans can come together on match days,to be frank if I was not a mod I would be avoiding the forum on match days as its crazy as it is.You will IMO find the best debate on a midweek morrning/afternoon when lads are shooting the breeze with no games on.

I appreciate that. But for me the match threads are the end and be all for me. Its the here and now. I know it can be a bit difficult to mod but again but this Im sure is what posters want to discuss above all else. And we can do that on the main forum. Would really like to see this sub forum idea given a run but I understand there has to be consensus.

astrofool

Dont: Create team specific sub forums, we'd have Man Utd and Liverpool hug fests and lots of empty other forums.

Do: Subdivide the soccer forum in another way (and not putting the ridiculous "superthreads" into their own forum).

Do: Delete the Spurs forum, as it has had the exact effect the admins didn't want to have by drawing the Spurs fans away from the Soccer forum, you can't have it both ways.

Don't: Delete threads asking why Spurs get their own forum because the admins can't answer it reasonably.

Do: Let the mods who say they'll walk if things change, walk, mods are replaceable, and walking away from an online forum is for babies, and babies shouldn't be in charge of the pre-teens in the soccer forum.