Proposed Road Bridge, Castletown Gates, Celbridge

Castletown

You are quiet right Raven, incase any of us should be caught off guard. I listened to KFM this morning and Catherine Murphy expressed the same views as I have expressed in relation to the bridge application, perhaps this is also just speculation but she was simply offering her view. With years of experience in these matters I would think that she is probably a good judge , but as you say it is best to wait and see and not to become complacent .

w@ll3gurl

The Raven. wrote: »

There is a lot of rejoicing today with this REFUSAL. Well done to everyone who supported this cause and especially to those who put in the time and effort to bring about this result. .

It's fantastic news isnt it!!!! I read this on my phone the other day and never got a chance to post here. So thrilled.

I agree with everyone, we cannot become complacent and have to keep up the pressure to get that land rezoned to amenity. We have to make sure the area is protected in future from greedy councillors and developers!!
i wouldn't put anything past them so we have to keep working to do all we can to save that particular area.

Funny thing is, i'm not particularly against development around Celbridge, just NOT in that spot across the Liffey from Castletown. It was great to see what An Bord Pleanala had to say about possible injury to landscape so close to Castletown, the viewpoint of the 'Liffey Valley' as a whole, and their comments about protected species such as otters and bats. The wildlife report was so detailed, badgers, bats, god knows what else....and disgusting planners thinking it is acceptable to destroy that kind of habitat.

Fingers crossed An Bord Pleanala will refuse the bridge application also.

I agree with what Catherine Murphy said about the Bord having courage and vision to take that decision.

I have already written to all the councillors (Except Catherine Murphy because obviously I know where she stands) to let them know what I think of it all - and how my votes will be going to Catherine Murphy in future and Mr McEvoy, the only ones to actually listen to what people think!
I got one snivelling reply and the person in question couldnt even be bothered to muster up a proper written reply. (Nothing in writing eh!?) Such a useless bunch of people altogether, they should be ashamed of themselves, particularly the ones who live in Celbridge and don't seem to appreciate Castletown & Donaghcumper Demesne and their heritage and history. They see it as just a field to build on, no appreciation for their heritage at all.

Fair play to Celbridge Action Alliance and lets continue to support them in whatever tasks lie ahead of us in all of this!!

The Raven.

w@ll3gurl wrote: »

It's fantastic news isnt it!!!! I read this on my phone the other day and never got a chance to post here. So thrilled.

I agree with everyone, we cannot become complacent and have to keep up the pressure to get that land rezoned to amenity. We have to make sure the area is protected in future from greedy councillors and developers!!

It is great to see the joyful reaction to this most welcome decision by An Bord Pleanala. We hope and pray that the Appeal against the Zone A development will also be successful. As Catherine Murphy pointed out:

Celbridge is rightly very proud of its Historic Town, the centrepiece of which is Castletown House and its associated neighbouring demesnes.

We certainly cannot afford to become complacent! We have got to keep working to ensure that the unique heritage of Celbridge is protected for present and future generations.

w@ll3gurl wrote: »

Fair play to Celbridge Action Alliance and lets continue to support them in whatever tasks lie ahead of us in all of this!!

Thank you for your support. The Celbridge Action Alliance continues to play the central role in creating an awareness of the shocking developments and destruction proposed by the developer and granted by Kildare County Council, and members have worked tirelessly in their efforts to prevent this disaster. All the other associated groups and individuals also play a vital role, and it is the combined efforts of everyone involved that bring about positive results.

The battle is not over yet! All of Donaghcumper needs to be rezoned back to agriculture in the County Development Plan in order to provide maximum protection against development. According to An Taisce, 'the volume of submissions made on this review is unprecedented in council history (according to the county heritage officer) and in fact they are pleased at the number of responses.'

W@ll3gurl, well done for having written to the councillors! Sooner or later they will have to listen!!

Castletown

I think it is a time now to be positive, and open all doors to councillors and indeed those individuals in KCC who may even share our views , and who may now work towards bringing about change and be more open to the idea of protecting these lands and hopefully give all of this carefull consideration.

Propellerhead

I can't help thinking that there was something phoney about this battle. For a start, in the teeth of the deepest recession in this country, where was the money to develop Donaghcumper coming from? But planning permission or not, I strongly doubt this was ever going to happen once the recession took the money away.

Of course, there is now only one Celbridge based councillor, the redoubtable Kevin Byrne. Pity Katie Ridge got dumped by an unsuspecting electorate. Can't say that I've seen Senan Griffin or Paul Kelly in action since the locals and Catherine Murphy is rightly hungry enough to get stuck into the anti Donaghcumper campaign.

What has not been said is that Celbridge's great and good would unsurprisingly be hacked off if a whole host of other businesses developed in an alternative to the main street, and where traffic also had an alternative escape route to the Lucan Road, Primrose Hill and Ardclough. As a consequence of any decision to kill a bridge at Donaghcumper it is high time that the idea of providing a crossing over the Liffey near Temple Meads as part of a ring road around Celbridge be looked at again.

Castletown

There was nothing phoney about this battle. It involved a five day oral hearing at great exspense to the Developer, who put up the very best in the country against a local group . The achievements of the Celbridge Action Alliance in this battle is tremendous .

The Raven.

Propellerhead wrote: »

I can't help thinking that there was something phoney about this battle. For a start, in the teeth of the deepest recession in this country, where was the money to develop Donaghcumper coming from? But planning permission or not, I strongly doubt this was ever going to happen once the recession took the money away.

I don't understand why you think this battle is 'phoney'. It doesn't make any sense. In spite of the recession, the developer continued to try and develop Donaghcumper. It would be foolish to sit back and assume that it wouldn't happen. One has to take these planning applications at face value, deal with them in accordance with proper planning procedures, and assume nothing.

Of course, there is now only one Celbridge based councillor, the redoubtable Kevin Byrne. Pity Katie Ridge got dumped by an unsuspecting electorate. Can't say that I've seen Senan Griffin or Paul Kelly in action since the locals and Catherine Murphy is rightly hungry enough to get stuck into the anti Donaghcumper campaign.

The only councillors who supported the cause to save Celbridge from destruction were Catherine Murphy, Padraig McEvoy, and (earlier) Tony McEvoy. It is hardly surprising that others lost votes.

What has not been said is that Celbridge's great and good would unsurprisingly be hacked off if a whole host of other businesses developed in an alternative to the main street, and where traffic also had an alternative escape route to the Lucan Road, Primrose Hill and Ardclough.

You obviously haven't read all the objections! What is the point of turning Celbridge village into a ghost town?

As a consequence of any decision to kill a bridge at Donaghcumper it is high time that the idea of providing a crossing over the Liffey near Temple Meads as part of a ring road around Celbridge be looked at again.

There is no bridge to 'kill'. There is a proposal for a bridge in a totally inappropriate area. There are two other vehicular bridges proposed by Kildare Council in the Celbridge Local Area Plans, in much more suitable places, including one at Templemills. I don't know where 'Temple Meads' is.

w@ll3gurl

Propellerhead wrote: »

I
What has not been said is that Celbridge's great and good would unsurprisingly be hacked off if a whole host of other businesses developed in an alternative to the main street, and where traffic also had an alternative escape route to the Lucan Road, Primrose Hill and Ardclough. .

Castletown and The Raven have already covered off most of the things I wanted to say and i agree with them.

It was interesting you mentioned 'other businesses' and Primrose Hill in the same sentence because there are 2 retail units by Primrose Gate, up on the hazelhatch road and they are completely and utterly empty for the last 3 years at least. Centra and Londis both had signs up at some stage saying 'opening soon' but it never materialised. And this is just 2 units! With hundreds of houses in the catchment area!
So whether local business people like it or not, there is not much action in the 'new retail opening' front anyway, even on that small scale. The units are currently up for let.
There is also the empty business park up by Applegreen on the maynooth road.

If you read the objections, you'll see the main issue with Donaghcumper is the location of the proposed development, on landscape with hugely significant heritage, historical and environmental value.

Propellerhead

including one at Templemills. I don't know where 'Temple Meads' is.

My bad. Temple Mills it is. Spending loads of time in Bristol lately, hence the unintended conflation of Bristol's railway station and the bit of Celbridge further along the Ardclough Road.

I still wonder where the money would have been coming from to do the Donaghcumper development, or who would have the cash to buy the residential and shop units. Cui Bono?

The Raven.

Propellerhead wrote: »

I still wonder where the money would have been coming from to do the Donaghcumper development, or who would have the cash to buy the residential and shop units. Cui Bono?

We don't know where the money would come from, or who would buy the units, but they certainly aren't going to all this trouble and expense for the good of their health. They obviously have some long-term lucrative plan up their sleeves.

Let's not forget that the developments proposed for Donaghcumper were scheduled to take well over ten years to complete. The recession could be over by then.

Cui Bono? The developer and Kildare County Council mainly, and of course the developer's legal team.

Castletown

Emmet Stagg TD stated in the Kildare Times that" this decision is comprehensive and would appear to dezone that portion of Donaghcumper Demesne from any development, and may have implications for the area zoned for the town centre extension"
Let's hope he is right , and that he will do all in his power to convinve the planners at KCC to put this land back to agricultural /amenity land.

There is also a good article in the Irish Times today by Frank Mc Donold.

Altered state of mind

Irish Times article here. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0707/1224274191846.html

Cant find link to Kildare Times.

The Raven.

Altered state of mind wrote: »

Irish Times article here. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0707/1224274191846.html

Cant find link to Kildare Times.

ASM, the Kildare Times is not online, but is available free in all newsagents, including Tesco.

It is an interesting article, and if anyone outside County Kildare wants to read it and can't get a copy, I will scan it and post it here.

Celbridge

Castletown wrote: »

Emmet Stagg TD stated in the Kildare Times that" this decision is comprehensive and would appear to dezone that portion of Donaghcumper Demesne from any development, and may have implications for the area zoned for the town centre extension"
Let's hope he is right , and that he will do all in his power to convince the planners at KCC to put this land back to agricultural /amenity land.

BEWARE GREEKS BEARING GIFTS

Emmet Stagg was a cheer leader for the development of Donaghcumper. Do not think that mealy mouthed words change his true thinking. Read between the lines....

If the "Town Centre" gets the go ahead he will claim responsibility for bringing MacJobs to Celbridge.

Tell Mr Kevin Byrne "Full Time Public Representative" to represent the PEOPLE. REZONE NOW

Castletown

Celbridge, none of our local representatives worked to protect Donaghcumper, except Catherine Murphy and Padraig Mc Evoy .
However if others want to help now to protect these lands well I say your very welcome as what is important is that the task at hand is completed. The more councillors that come on board the better chance we have of succeeding, and that’s what is important. TD’s change their mind every day depending on the circumstances and now that the board have effectively allowed for the dezoning of a portion of the Donaghcumper Lands, the circumstances are now very different. I hope FF, FG and Labour come on board , better late than never!

The Raven.

Castletown wrote: »

TD’s change their mind every day depending on the circumstances and now that the board have effectively allowed for the dezoning of a portion of the Donaghcumper Lands, the circumstances are now very different. I hope FF, FG and Labour come on board , better late than never!

Let's hope so. Some of the Green Party members need to change their change their tune too :rolleyes:!!

ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE: “DEZONING” OF land from a development designation back to agricultural usage should only be done “as a last resort”, according to Minister of State Ciarán Cuffe. [...]

Introducing a number of amendments to the Planning and Development Bill yesterday, Mr Cuffe told the Dáil environment committee that the adoption of “phasing” the development of zoned land could be chosen, as was happening in Co Clare.

Responding to concerns from Cork South West TD Christy O’Sullivan that people may be ruined by land being dezoned, Mr Cuffe said zonings could be retained, with the local authority adopting a core strategy of development in a sequential fashion. Land close to the centre of the settlement would be developed first, with land “further out the road” being developed later. [Emphasis added]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0618/1224272793656.html

The proposed road bridge and future 'town expansion' on Donaghcumper is in the heart of the 'settlement' of Celbridge,

Castletown

See Independent today for interesting article on the new Planning and Development bill passed in the Seanad last night. Land dezoning has been given the go-ahead. Local authorities have been ordered to dezone lands within the next year. All looking good for Donaghcumper. Our councilors are being given every opportunity to reslove the Donaghcumper issue and protect the lands . Let's hope they grasp the opportunity and change the zoning in line with the heritage objectives in the County Development Plan. If not the minister can intervene and order a U-turn

The Raven.

It is now more vital than ever that An Bord Pleanala refuses planning permission for the proposed new bridge and road infrastructure to facilitate the planned high-rise town ‘expansion’ of Celbridge at Donaghcumper, since the recently adopted new Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2009. The dezoning, referred to in the bill, relates only to excessively rezoned, out of town areas, which is not the case with Donaghcumper. Of more serious concern is that, according to this bill, the life span of planning applications can now be extended from 5 years to 10 years.

As this planning application would be the first in a series, as part of a piecemeal/phased development of Donaghcumper/Celbridge, it could go on forever thanks to this new bill, which Ciaran Cuffe describes as ‘a more sustainable, evidence-based and plan-led approach, grounded in the principles of sustainable development and local democracy, to benefit citizens, communities and the wider environment.’

This is typical of the kind of spin that David McWilliams referred to in his article on the link below, in which he describes it as the 'Potemkin Village' approach.

The reality is that the new Amendments actually diminish local democracy and provide more benefit to the developer than the existing bill. As McWilliams so aptly put it, ‘obscuring the truth does nobody any favours.’

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2010/07/22/ireland-is-staring-down-the-barrel-of-bankruptcy

w@ll3gurl

Exactly Raven, this is by no means over even if the next appeal with An Bord P goes the same way.

An update on my letters to TDs & Councillors...i got a fudge reply as I call it. I won't say from who because i dont know if its appropriate here, but it was the usual fudge. The argument wheeled out about KCC being sued if the developer didn't have his way. :rolleyes: it'd bring a tear to your eye wouldn't, their concern for their little pals and fellow politicians. Never mind the 4000 odd locals who signed to protect the lands!

I would urge anyone who feels strongly to write to your local representatives and let them know your opinion. I really have no respect at all left for any of them, other than Catherine Murphy. (And that goes for many other local issues too, transport, road maintenance etc..)

The Raven.

Thanks, w@ll3gurl. Fair play to you for writing the letters!

Cllr. Padraig McEvoy has also been very supportive of efforts to save Celbridge from this horrendous development.

Don't tell me the others are still trotting out that pathetic mantra about KCC being sued :rolleyes:!! It is very patronizing of them to assume that people are incapable of reading the statute books.

The Raven.

There is not going to be an oral hearing. An Bord Pleanala has decided that 'the appeal can be dealt with adequately through written procedures'.

The Raven.

The decision by An Bord Pleanala is due to be decided by 25th August, but that is the month they go on holiday, so there may be a delay.

In the meantime, for those who haven't seen the NUI Maynooth report entitled A Haunted Landscape: Housing and Ghost Estates in Post-Celtic Tiger Ireland, here is the link:

http://www.nuim.ie/nirsa/research/do...-Landscape.pdf

It was also discussed on Primetime and is available on the link below until Thursday 19th August.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1077716

w@ll3gurl

Thanks for the links Raven!

Did anybody see the small article in the Liffey Champion this week? (I dont think they have a website where I can post a link, and I don't have a scanner) Basically, certain Labour representatives in Celbridge have lodged an objection about a mobile phone mast near Celbridge house....fair enough I says when I read it, no harm to object etc... I had to laugh when I saw their reasoning and comments!!
The said they feel the mast will be detrimental to an area of amenity and it will basically be an eyesore and disturb the views from certain housing estates such as Crodaun, Castle village etc....

now don't get me wrong, i have no problem with them objecting to the mast at Celbridge house, and the reasons are logical......but these very same Comedic duo are more than happy for the land at Donaghcumper to be built on and happy to destroy the amenity value and views.....
I actually laughed out loud. Laurel & Hardy or what???? I am laughing to myself here thinking about it.

They truly are on another planet. :(

If you're reading this Laurel & Hardy - shame on you both. :mad:

The Raven.

I have seen their objection to the mast and it certainly conflicts with their attitude to Donaghcumper, which is hypocritical. I don't know what possessed the councillors to rezone Donaghcumper to residential and retail/commercial in the first place. This gesture totally ignored the wishes of the people who voted for them, and served only the interests of the developer.

The Raven.

An Bord Pleanala decision on Zone A (09/665) is due on 25th August. That is a week from this coming Wednesday.

w@ll3gurl

The Raven. wrote: »

An Bord Pleanala decision on Zone A (09/665) is due on 25th August. That is a week from this coming Wednesday.

Keeping everything crossed that they refuse this as well! Walking down by the river in Castletown in this fine weather, just hammers home how a design for a town centre like that would just destroy the parklands.

Is 09/665 the bridge though? I am a bit confused, that number seems familiar from the application that was deemed withdrawn.

The Raven.

w@ll3gurl, 09/665 is the first phase of a piecemeal version of the planning application that was withdrawn. It is for roads and services to facilitate a future town expansion, which includes a road bridge and a pedestrian bridge. The developer is to submit further separate applications for the bridges, but KCC appears to have more or less granted permission for them.

w@ll3gurl

The Raven. wrote: »

w@ll3gurl, 09/665 is the first phase of a piecemeal version of the planning application that was withdrawn. It is for roads and services to facilitate a future town expansion, which includes a road bridge and a pedestrian bridge. The developer is to submit further separate applications for the bridges, but KCC appears to have more or less granted permission for them.

ah i see, thanks Raven. Fingers crossed for next week anyway!

Castletown

08/438 was the number of the application that was withdrawn. The application currently before the bord is 09/665 and is for the road infrastructure to facilitate a town expansion on the Donaghcumper lands in Celbridge. The bridge is included in this application.

Kildare County Council had granted permission for 09/665 but said that they wanted more details regarding the design of the bridge and asked that another planning application be made for this, but also said that they agreed in principle with the bridge.

As KCCs decision to grant permission to 09/665 is now being appealed to the bord , the developer has not as yet submitted a second application for the bridge as requested by KCC. He imay be waiting to see if 09/665 is rejected by an bord pleanala , as if so there is no point in sending a second application for the bridge to KCC. Let's hope it is rejected.

Davidth88

Tell me this , I read in the Liffey Champ that the developer is one of the objectors ..... how / why is this . I was a little confused by that