Crufts 2010 Coverage. Will you watch it or not?

Magenta

stevoman wrote: »

im am not! :mad:

I was joking/being sarcastic

munky101

I'll be watching, but I'll be paying particular interest in the judges decisions. The Kennel Club made big announcements about changes in the conformation judging to promote health issues with dogs, like the fat labs we're all sick of seeing, but I doubt they'll be enforced so I'll be watching out of curiosity more than anything else.

stevoman

Magenta wrote: »

I was joking/being sarcastic

i know

jen_23

stevoman wrote: »

Will anyone be watching the coverage of crufts this year or be boycotting it. Im in 2 minds with what to do. Being a person who works gundogs, i find many of the entrys a complete disgrace to the breeds.

I'm very excited to watch this. I recently started showing my samoyed so i'll be very interested to watch that group on particular.

stevoman wrote: »

Some of the cocker and springer spaniels are a complete joke and the would be a complete insult to the breeders of old who bred these dogs to their abilitys in the field instead of their cosmetic features.

I agree some breeds have been bred for cosmetic purposes only which has resulted in some awful health conditions in certain breeds in particular CKC, GSDs and pugs.

stevoman wrote: »

for the pleasure of getting a trophy just doesnt seem right to me.

Oh god it's so not for the pleasure of a trophy. Not in my case and in many others that I know showing. I'm certainly not saying there aren't people out there who show for prestigious titles but I have yet to come across someone like that in my own personal experience.
For me it's about having fun with my dog and I know several people who are like me in this thinking. We have our ringcraft classes every week without fail which Gunnar loves. He get's the socialisation and the bit of play with all the other dogs and he LOVES the shows.

Every time the judge hands over a rosette regardless of colour he automatically jumps for it out of excitement, or when the judge is going over him he'l often turn his head up and give them a sneaky lick. From the start of the day until the end his tail is usually swishing side to side having fun! And that's what it's about for most people a day out with your chum with the bonus of getting yourself out and making new friends!

andreac wrote: »

Im showing at it on the working day, showing my rottweiler, but i will watch as much of as i can when im back home.
Im there on the thursday and the friday as im showing on thursday and i have friends showing on fri so will be there both days.

Really looking forward to showing there for the first time with my first rottweiler and showdog.:D

The very best of luck Andrea - i'll be sure to be watching ye!

Nyberg wrote: »

I'll sky+ it, my dog loves watching it...... he actually sits right in front of the telly and follows the dogs around.

Awwww that's very cute!

andreac wrote: »

These dogs are very well cared for, fed the best of food, get lots of exercise and are very much loved by their owners. I know with my dog he is my pet first and showing is an added bonus that i do with him but he absol loves it, and that goes for most dogs that are shown.

I totally agree in most instances people who i've come across at shows - they live for their dogs! And the majority of dogs being shown love it themselves.

andreac wrote: »

I only have to take out my show bag and hes running for the door getting all excited.

Gunnars like that when he sees his show lead

andreac wrote: »

I do agree that with some breeds there are problems but the kennel club have stepped in and are starting to do something about it.

Exactly it's great to see them making an attempt to address the breeding standards of certain breeds.

andreac wrote: »

I understand that you are concerned about all the health problems with pedigree dogs, but the majority of dogs at Crufts are very healthy dogs and need to be in the best health to be shown.

Alot of the health problems to do with dogs lies with the breeders and not so much with the shows. Breeders have a responisibility to perform health tests on the dogs such as hip/elbow scoring and eye tests and are not doing so. It's not easy for a judge to notice these problems considering some of these ailments may not show up for many years. As far as I know (I'm pretty sure I read this recently) the kennel club is looking into mandatory health testing of all dogs and bitches that are to be bred from. I think this would go a long way in helping against the increase in health issues seen in dogs.

andreac wrote: »

was all a publicity stunt if you ask me.

Probably :rolleyes:

VERYinterested wrote: »

I won't be watching it, disgusted at the antics of breeders. As well as the excellent expose, all other evidence is overwhelming. I was delighted when the BBC pulled the plug, it won't get the publicity it needs and hopefully in time more and more people will realise and see it for what it is.

Not all breeders are irresponsible - not everyone should be tarred with the same brush. There are plenty of responsible and genuine breeders out there who perform the health tests and endorse the reg papers of the pups for showing or if the pup won't be shown have a contract to have them neutered/spayed.

If more people are educated on what to be looking for when buying pups everyone would be buying from breeders who responsibly breed and these breeders not performing health tests would soon have to start. So here's hoping!

Magenta

My issue with dog shows is that it is 99% based on appearance.
All dogs were originally bred for function.
If a Border Collie cannot herd sheep he is no use in the task he is bred for but yet he can still win rosettes based on what he looks like.
Similarly many of the Border Collies who win herding trials would be deemed "bad examples of the breed" by the Kennel Club based on their appearance. It's daft. Yes I know Crufts has Agility and Flyball etc but the dogs who win those may do miserably in the beauty aspect.
I think hunter trials etc are far more important and meaningful than how pretty a dog is and I think that the dogs should win prizes based on what they can do, not what they look like. It's the beauty pageant aspect that so many people are striving for, and destroying the dogs' health in the process.

ISDW

Magenta wrote: »

My issue with dog shows is that it is 99% based on appearance.
All dogs were originally bred for function.
If a Border Collie cannot herd sheep he is no use in the task he is bred for but yet he can still win rosettes based on what he looks like.
Similarly many of the Border Collies who win herding trials would be deemed "bad examples of the breed" by the Kennel Club based on their appearance. It's daft. Yes I know Crufts has Agility and Flyball etc but the dogs who win those may do miserably in the beauty aspect.
I think hunter trials etc are far more important and meaningful than how pretty a dog is and I think that the dogs should win prizes based on what they can do, not what they look like. It's the beauty pageant aspect that so many people are striving for, and destroying the dogs' health in the process.

I totally agree with you on that, but not all show dogs aren't fit for purpose. Due to injury, I unfortunately couldn't go on a hike that was arranged last Sunday by members of the Tails 'n' Trails club in Wicklow. One of the members on it was with his Alaskan Malamute, McCain. This dog hiked 13km up a snowy mountain with a backpack on carrying 25% of his own bodyweight. He has also just been announced as top Malamute in Ireland for 2009 by the IKC, winning shows consistently. A dog that wins at shows and is most definitely fit for purpose.:D

lrushe

I'll be having a look at Crufts this year. I find it interesting, I love learning new information about dogs so I love hearing the history of the different breeds, seeing new or rare breeds etc.
I agree that some breeds have gone too far but like someone already said if nobody bought these dogs they wouldn't exist. As the owner of a variety of different breeds and those who have past all lived to old age, I can see the other side. Its a lot less sensational to show a well bred (all health test etc. done) pedigree dogs living out a healthy, active 13+ years and dying of old age, which is what my experiences of pedigree dogs has been, but I guess its each to their own

Magenta

ISDW wrote: »

I totally agree with you on that, but not all show dogs aren't fit for purpose.

OK but many of them are not. I didn't mean that a dog can only be one or the other.
McCain sounds like an amazing dog

kildara

I will watch Crufts.
I will watch it to see all the different breeds of dogs and also other examples of 'our' breeds - also to see if there are relatives of our little one in the ring.

I also like watching the Agility when it is on.

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of those who have breeds that have been mentioned (negatively) in this post. We have a Shar Pei. Wouldn't get another, but also wouldn't change our lad for the world. Reason I would not get another is not because of anything that has been negatively introduced into the breed, but because of poor breeding by "breeders" not willing to adhere to common sense and who continue to breed a dog with health issues. These issues can then transfer down through the bloodline and offspring unknowingly bred or affected.

stevoman wrote: »

Afaik there are 14 breeds under risk and they are the basset hound, clumber spaniel, Dogue de Bordeaux, mastiff, Neapolitan mastiff, Pekingese, shar pei, St Bernard, chow chow, German Shepherd, bulldog, bloodhound, Rhodesian ridgeback and Cavalier King Charles spaniel.

Where did you get this list? I'd be interested to see what changes have been made to the breed specs in each case.

Edit to add: The Kennel Club took no interest in the welfare of dogs. To become a "KC Accredited Breeder" all you had to do was pay the annual premium. There was no health checks or otherwise carried out by the KC.
Maybe this has changed - I hope it has.

andreac

Kildara i think your info about the breeders scheme is wrong.

Here is a link to their site and the info about it:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/203

kildara

Thanks for the link Andreac.
What I meant was - they don't actively carry out checks to ensure that all these recommendations are being followed (I may be wrong of course).
In fact, they state that "No automated checks can be made to ensure that Accredited Breeders are following recommendations, but all Accredited Breeders are strongly encouraged to do so."
They give a list of Breed Specific recommenations, but not all breeds are on this - so if your breed is not, you do not have to screen your stock. Seems, wrong to me tbh.

I just think they should take a more active roll in a scheme that they run.


On a side note - the very best of luck to the two of yis at Crufts!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I will certainly watch it. I know not all breeds are fit for purpose and it's all about appearance. So what if a Border Collie can't herd sheep it can still be a fine looking animal. My Rough Collies souldn't herd anything but are fabulous dogs.

I enjoy crufts. I enjoy seeing dogs shown to perfection and I enjoy getting to see the different breeds. I also love the agility tests.

Magenta

Jonah Yummy Windburn wrote: »

I will certainly watch it. I know not all breeds are fit for purpose and it's all about appearance. So what if a Border Collie can't herd sheep it can still be a fine looking animal. My Rough Collies souldn't herd anything but are fabulous dogs.

They are supposed to be a working animal, not a garden ornament.
They are supposed to have substance and brains.

crotalus667

Jonah Yummy Windburn wrote: »

I will certainly watch it. I know not all breeds are fit for purpose and it's all about appearance. So what if a Border Collie can't herd sheep it can still be a fine looking animal. .

The problem is not that they cant be used as a working dog the problem is that they have been breed for aesthetics at the expense of the health of the dog , that’s like saying so what if my car has an unreliable engine brakes that don’t work and faulty electrics at least it looks pretty

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Let's be clear on this. Not all breeds are bred at the expense of the Dog's health.

Anyway, I'll watch Cruffs if it's being shown.

andreac

Jonah Yummy Windburn wrote: »

Let's be clear on this. Not all breeds are bred at the expense of the Dog's health.

Anyway, I'll watch Cruffs if it's being shown.

I totally agree with you Jonah Yummy Windburn.:)

Most people posting on here think show dogs are all deformed, unhealthy dogs which is far from the truth.

Im sure there are a few dogs that arent in the best health, but as far as making out that all these pedigree dogs are unhealthy really is an exaggeration.

All you need to do is pop along to a show and see all these dogs and how well and healthy they look.

Magenta

andreac wrote: »

I totally agree with you Srameen.:)

Most people posting on here think show dogs are all deformed, unhealthy dogs which is far from the truth.

Nope, I just think that there should be more to a dog than how he looks in a beauty pageant.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Magenta wrote: »

Nope, I just think that there should be more to a dog than how he looks in a beauty pageant.

But, there is. Have you ever actually watched the show? There are lots of classes for agility, obedience, fieldcraft, fly-ball etc.

andreac

Magenta wrote: »

Nope, I just think that there should be more to a dog than how he looks in a beauty pageant.

But thats the thing, its a dog "Show" and it goes on how the breed looks and how close it comes to the breed standard and looks like it should and how well it moves, how good its temperament is etc etc, so why should other stuff come into it when its a show and how a dog is presented?:rolleyes:

As Srameen said, theres lots of other things to do with dogs as well, agility, obedience, field trials etc, so if you dont want to show the dog then do something else.

Magenta

Jonah Yummy Windburn wrote: »

But, there is. Have you ever actually watched the show? There are lots of classes for agility, obedience, fieldcraft, fly-ball etc.

Yes, if you actually read the thread I have already said I like the agility and flyball.

andreac wrote:

But thats the thing, its a dog "Show" and it goes on how the breed looks and how close it comes to the breed standard and looks like it should and how well it moves, how good its temperament is etc etc, so why should other stuff come into it when its a show and how a dog is presented?

Because I do not agree that a dog can be the "best of his breed" just because of how he looks. Any brain-dead dog can look pretty and trotting a dog around a ring isn't exactly rocket science :rolleyes:.
Not every dog is intelligent enough for obedience, agility etc and not every owner is skilled enough to train them for it.

ISDW

andreac wrote: »

But thats the thing, its a dog "Show" and it goes on how the breed looks and how close it comes to the breed standard and looks like it should and how well it moves, how good its temperament is etc etc, so why should other stuff come into it when its a show and how a dog is presented?:rolleyes:

As Srameen said, theres lots of other things to do with dogs as well, agility, obedience, field trials etc, so if you dont want to show the dog then do something else.

The problems come though Andrea, when the breed standard has been set so that it gives a dog no longer fit for purpose. I think that first and foremost, dogs should be able to do what they are meant to be bred for, if they can't, then that breed standard surely is wrong. I don't know much about showing as you know:D but my breed, the siberian husky, seems to have escaped most of the meddling with the standard that has changed so many other fantastic breeds. This is probably due to the fact that they are still used extensively for the purpose they were originally bred for. I understand things like tail set etc for the sibes, as it can be an indication of the back end of the dog not being perfect, which can affect how it can work. So something that to an outsider may seem like just an aesthetic thing - i.e. tail shouldn't curl to one side or the other, or touch the dogs back - has a reason. I honestly don't think that anyone has any problems with things like that. However, other breed standards have been changed so much for reasons that are totally beyond me, that theres no way the dog can do what they should be able to.

Magenta

ISDW wrote: »

I understand things like tail set etc for the sibes, as it can be an indication of the back end of the dog not being perfect, which can affect how it can work. So something that to an outsider may seem like just an aesthetic thing - i.e. tail shouldn't curl to one side or the other, or touch the dogs back - has a reason.

Just chop the tail off, works for Rottweilers :rolleyes:

ISDW

Magenta wrote: »

Just chop the tail off, works for Rottweilers :rolleyes:

Yeah, I don't understand that one with Rotties. I have been semi converted to docked tails in some of the working breeds that go through thick cover, apparently they can get very bad injuries, but thats not what a rottie is supposed to do, so I don't get the reasoning behind that, and some other breeds.

Magenta

ISDW wrote: »

Yeah, I don't understand that one with Rotties. I have been semi converted to docked tails in some of the working breeds that go through thick cover, apparently they can get very bad injuries, but thats not what a rottie is supposed to do, so I don't get the reasoning behind that, and some other breeds.

As far as the working breeds go, I think the tail should be left natural unless it actually does start getting injured. Most gundogs have floppy ears so if thick cover is so dangerous to their tails then why are they bred with big floppy ears that they cannot pin back against their head, surely if the tail could get destroyed then the ears could too? I'm going off topic...

Morganna

i used to judge working /pastoral/toys in the 70s and 80s/early 90s got out of showing then .Used to show gsds till the bannana backe came in .Have shown a good few breeds but the gsd is my favourite .I still as you all know breed gsds but old english working lines The breeds have changed a lot and not for the good.The belgian shepherd is nothing like it was in the seventys.The gsd show dogs are half frog half dog the cavalier has changed .I will still be watching it .I last exhibited at crufts 1994.I wish everyone that is going good luck and enjoy your day

jen_23

Jonah Yummy Windburn wrote: »

Let's be clear on this. Not all breeds are bred at the expense of the Dog's health.

Absolutely. Some breeds have gone that way but there are many many wonderful breeds still being bred for to be able to perform what their historic purpose was.

Magenta wrote: »

Because I do not agree that a dog can be the "best of his breed" just because of how he looks. Any brain-dead dog can look pretty and trotting a dog around a ring isn't exactly rocket science :rolleyes:.

In fairness... :rolleyes: Dog shows are a bit more than how the dog looks.

And the trotting is called gaiting.
Gait in the show ring shows a correctly constructed and athletically fit dog.
The gait is not looked at for to watch a pretty dog move around a ring - it is done for a purpose.. to show that the dog is both fit and functional.

Only so many things can be seen with a dog standing still.. which is why a dogs movement needs to be seen. When the movement is being judged the judge is supposed to be assessing the ability of the dog to do it's historic work.
For my breed (samoyed) we trot around to show good gait - in this motion, any unsoundness - a bad hip, a weak shoulder - will show up at once. To the trained eye, little defects in movement, such as spraddling the hind feet or crossing the front feet, can reveal poor proportions or structural flaws.

These are characteristics that affect the dog's stamina, endurance, lifelong health and ability to perform the work for which it was bred. These characteristics will also be passed down to any offspring the dog might have, which is why showing is important to breeders and for dogs.

Other things that are checked by the judge in the ring are conformation - a combination of skeleton, muscle structure, body shape, and coat type that is unique to each breed.
The judge will check the dogs tail to see if it's set properly according to the standard. Angualation of hind legs is checked and a check of strength of hind quarters is also made.

Magenta wrote: »

They are supposed to be a working animal, not a garden ornament.
They are supposed to have substance and brains.

The majority of people who show their dogs don't treat them as garden ornaments. And just because a dog is being shown doesn't neccessarily mean it is brainless.
In fact the opposite - in most cases for dogs being shown alot of work goes into the training. They need to learn to show their teeth when asked, to trot (which I know isn't exactly rocket science as you put it but it takes alot for a excitable dog to trot around the ring without pulling or being too slow, without being distracted by all the other dogs, people and children on the other side of the ring, to follow their person and take commands on which way to go and to not be bouncy. ) at a speed which shows their best gait, to stand and allow someone to go over them whilst not moving, to stay still and stand whilst waiting their turn to be shown and not to go off playing with every other dog in the ring and to stay quiet and stacked.

Maybe i'm just overly proud of my dog but when I see how excitable he used to be to how he's calmed in the show ring now I'm very proud of him. I know that took alot and the fact that he has taken on board all of his training says to me he has a few brains in his head anyway ...

Magenta

jen_23 wrote: »

Absolutely. Some breeds have gone that way but there are many many wonderful breeds still being bred for to be able to perform what their historic purpose was.




In fairness... :rolleyes: Dog shows are a bit more than how the dog looks.

And the trotting is called gaiting.
Gait in the show ring shows a correctly constructed and athletically fit dog.
The gait is not looked at for to watch a pretty dog move around a ring - it is done for a purpose.. to show that the dog is both fit and functional.

Only so many things can be seen with a dog standing still.. which is why a dogs movement needs to be seen. When the movement is being judged the judge is supposed to be assessing the ability of the dog to do it's historic work.
For my breed (samoyed) we trot around to show good gait - in this motion, any unsoundness - a bad hip, a weak shoulder - will show up at once. To the trained eye, little defects in movement, such as spraddling the hind feet or crossing the front feet, can reveal poor proportions or structural flaws.

These are characteristics that affect the dog's stamina, endurance, lifelong health and ability to perform the work for which it was bred. These characteristics will also be passed down to any offspring the dog might have, which is why showing is important to breeders and for dogs.

Other things that are checked by the judge in the ring are conformation - a combination of skeleton, muscle structure, body shape, and coat type that is unique to each breed.
The judge will check the dogs tail to see if it's set properly according to the standard. Angualation of hind legs is checked and a check of strength of hind quarters is also made.



The majority of people who show their dogs don't treat them as garden ornaments. And just because a dog is being shown doesn't neccessarily mean it is brainless.
In fact the opposite - in most cases for dogs being shown alot of work goes into the training. They need to learn to show their teeth when asked, to trot (which I know isn't exactly rocket science as you put it but it takes alot for a excitable dog to trot around the ring without pulling or being too slow, without being distracted by all the other dogs, people and children on the other side of the ring, to follow their person and take commands on which way to go and to not be bouncy. ) at a speed which shows their best gait, to stand and allow someone to go over them whilst not moving, to stay still and stand whilst waiting their turn to be shown and not to go off playing with every other dog in the ring and to stay quiet and stacked.

Maybe i'm just overly proud of my dog but when I see how excitable he used to be to how he's calmed in the show ring now I'm very proud of him. I know that took alot and the fact that he has taken on board all of his training says to me he has a few brains in his head anyway ...

Yes, but his breed's function is to pull a sled with other dogs. Has he ever done that in his life?

ISDW

Magenta wrote: »

Yes, but his breed's function is to pull a sled with other dogs. Has he ever done that in his life?

Jen's dog is still a bit young yet to be pulling but I've seen photos of him in his harness, and I know that Jen23 wants to work him when he's old enough. Unfortunately I doubt it will ever be with a sled as we live here, but dryland mushing will do just as well:D

Magenta

ISDW wrote: »

Jen's dog is still a bit young yet to be pulling but I've seen photos of him in his harness, and I know that Jen23 wants to work him when he's old enough. Unfortunately I doubt it will ever be with a sled as we live here, but dryland mushing will do just as well:D

Ah, that's good so.

jen_23

Magenta wrote: »

Yes, but his breed's function is to pull a sled with other dogs. Has he ever done that in his life?

As ISDW said he's too young but he is pulling me in cani-x which we have started and we will be doing dry land mushing in a few months time.

They were also bred to herd reindeer but I doubt somehow he'l be doing that here... (unless maybe at xmas.... )

In the case of many dogowners - it is almost impossible these days to have your dog do what it was bred for! Alot of people own dogs as pets without the intention of working them. Their dogs may have historically been bred for herding sheep, cows, hunting etc etc but not everyone is going to own a farm with a sheep dog or go hunting rabbits with their beagle.
What the judges are checking for in most cases is that they are capable of doing what they were originally intended to do.

(and I know this doesn't apply to every breed in showing as some have been bred past what they were historically bred for but i'm just pointing out that it's not the case in many breeds that are being shown )

ISDW wrote: »

Jen's dog is still a bit young yet to be pulling but I've seen photos of him in his harness, and I know that Jen23 wants to work him when he's old enough. Unfortunately I doubt it will ever be with a sled as we live here, but dryland mushing will do just as well:D

I can't wait Were getting the scooter for his birthday to start the training - he's learning fast with the cani-x so i'm hoping he'l take to the scooter just as well!