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Che Guevara (Mod Note: read full thread before posting)

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  • 22-02-2010 8:33pm
    #1
    Junior D
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭


    I was in history class the other day when I happened to mention Guevara's name, when suddenly a war nearly broke out. Personally I see him as a hero who had his problems, but I love the way he stood for his opinions. However, other people in my class see him as a scumbag. I'd like to know what the general opinion on him is.

    Nelson Mandela has referred to him as: "An inspiration for every human being who loves freedom"
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    #2
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,222 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Interesting, what did the people that didn't like him say?
    Was there comparisons to Michael Collins?


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    #3
    Junior D
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Junior D


    Basically they blasted the harsh and ruthless regeime he developed and claimed he was nothing more than a blood-thirsty tyrant. Even though I think of him as a hero, I remember reading how once he blasted mens heads in pieces from just feet away with huge slugs. Although I do think this was excessive these men were themselves tyrants from Batistas regeime and the hopeful ends justified the means.


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    #4
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,222 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Well it was violent times. To me (and a lot of people I think) he was a hero.
    The historians will argue back and forth but in the context of the times I think he did the right thing, as Michael Collins did.


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    #5
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Junior D wrote: »
    Basically they blasted the harsh and ruthless regeime he developed and claimed he was nothing more than a blood-thirsty tyrant. Even though I think of him as a hero, I remember reading how once he blasted mens heads in pieces from just feet away with huge slugs. Although I do think this was excessive these men were themselves tyrants from Batistas regeime and the hopeful ends justified the means.

    But Cubas a basket case ran by nepotism, one shyte regime doesn't deserve another. I think people get caught up in the romanticism of that iconic photograph.


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    #6
    Junior D
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Junior D


    I think people get caught up in the romanticism of that iconic photograph.

    Well for me its not the photograph which makes him a standout icon, its his ideals, theories and motivations for making the change. As for the people he killed, they were the real villains who wanted the corroupt situation to continue and rightly so they were crushed


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    #7
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Junior D wrote: »
    I think people get caught up in the romanticism of that iconic photograph.

    Well for me its not the photograph which makes him a standout icon, its his ideals, theories and motivations for making the change. As for the people he killed, they were the real villains who wanted the corroupt situation to continue and rightly so they were crushed

    And the Cuba that came after is something to be proud of?


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    #8
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    i dont think he is a hero at all. he stayed behind the lines and left others to do the fighting. how great can he be when his idols were communist tyrants and his loyality was to communism which was responsible for the deaths of countless millions of people around the world.

    and why on earth is he being compared to Michael Collins?


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    #9
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Magnus wrote: »
    Well it was violent times. To me (and a lot of people I think) he was a hero.
    The historians will argue back and forth but in the context of the times I think he did the right thing, as Michael Collins did.

    I don't think you can accuse him of staying behind the lines. He was involved in the frontlines in Cuba, and then later in Bolivia. And to some extent in the Congo, but that was a farce of an expedition.

    I think he was idealistic and well intentioned, but did he achieve anything of value? One dictatorship replaced another. You could argue that the newer regime is fairer. Anything else?

    When put in charge of the Cuban economy his crazy policies destroyed the economy within a few years, causing hardship for the Cuban people.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that he acted violently as he lived in "violent times". I'm no admirer of Batista but its worth remembering that Castro and other rebels had years earlier been released by Batista in an amnesty. Che prefered to execute his enemies so that he had seen the last of them.


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    #10
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,222 ✭✭✭✭biko


    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    i dont think he is a hero at all. he stayed behind the lines and left others to do the fighting. how great can he be when his idols were communist tyrants and his loyality was to communism which was responsible for the deaths of countless millions of people around the world.

    and why on earth is he being compared to Michael Collins?
    He did fight and has a number of killings to his name (I suspect you'd call them murders). He, like Collins, was a major part of a revolution to overthrow a puppet regime and succeeded.

    Don't bring the old "communism kills" into this, capitalism is still killing people in Iraq as we speak.

    What other revolutionary political leader has participated in the overthrow of a reactionary regime, been for several years a leading figure in the new government and then voluntarily gone off to another front in the revolutionary struggle, as he saw it?


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    #11
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Magnus wrote: »
    He did fight and has a number of killings to his name (I suspect you'd call them murders). He, like Collins, was a major part of a revolution to overthrow a puppet regime and succeeded.

    Don't bring the old "communism kills" into this, capitalism is still killing people in Iraq as we speak.

    What other revolutionary political leader has participated in the overthrow of a reactionary regime, been for several years a leading figure in the new government and then voluntarily gone off to another front in the revolutionary struggle, as he saw it?

    Wow, I know who to ignore in this thread from now on.


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    #12
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Magnus wrote: »
    Don't bring the old "communism kills" into this, capitalism is still killing people in Iraq as we speak.

    why not? he was politicaly a communist / marxist and supported communist/marxist tyrants and the the so-called "workers republics".

    and just for the record i think capitalism has killed as many people as Guevara's communism.

    i have no problem with people taking up arms to over throw tyrants and oppressors in their own countries such as Collins , Pearse and the Irish Volunteers etc. but the "hero" Guevara went to other countries in south america and africa to help spread , with the use of murder and terror , communism which as we all know was responsible for the deaths, murder and stavation of millions more innocent people than the Third Reich or the british empire.


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    #13
    grenache
    Registered Users Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭grenache


    On a side note, i'm sure this has been mentioned many times before, but his full name is Che Guevara Lynch. He has relations in both Galway and Kerry. One of the Kerry lads in the my supporters club is a third cousin of his.


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    #14
    seanybiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    Cant understand his hero status. He murdered people. Whats heroic about that?


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    #15
    Artur.PL
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭Artur.PL


    As a person who lived in the soviet times in Poland I can't see him as a hero. He adored Stalin's verison of communism, he is known as the organizer of the first labor camp in Cuba where the homosexuals and dissidents and later people with AIDS were kept.


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    #16
    Junior D
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Junior D


    He adored Stalin's verison of communism

    I'd just like to point out that Che had a general dislike of the Soviet model for communism, and favoured the the Chinese model formed by Mao. He apparently dreaded his compulsary visits to Russia, but relished his Chinese visits, where he was seen more as a hero


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    #17
    Artur.PL
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭Artur.PL


    Later he was, but not from the beginning. After Nikita Khrushchev's Secret Speech he said that was an imperialistic propaganda not truth. He approved of soviet invasion in Hungary in 1956 also.


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    #18
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Junior D wrote: »
    I'd just like to point out that Che had a general dislike of the Soviet model for communism, and favoured the the Chinese model formed by Mao.

    what made this version any better than the original ? the mass execuations , the starvation , the inprisonment of countless chinese citizens ?


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    #19
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Artur.PL wrote: »
    He approved of soviet invasion in Hungary in 1956 also.

    wasnt sure what his view was on this .thanks


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    #20
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Artur.PL wrote: »
    He approved of soviet invasion in Hungary in 1956 also.

    Link/Evidence?


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    #21
    Artur.PL
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭Artur.PL


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Link/Evidence?
    Only in polish language. I've just read about that long time ago.


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    #22
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    I'll suspend belief until I see a link so.


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    #23
    twitch1984
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭twitch1984


    Wheather people think he is a hero or not is everyones personal opinion. The main problem is people think they know everything about che just because they have a t-shirt/poster etc.. with his picture on it.
    Personally I think he was a hero fighting for what he believed in. Just because someone doesnt understand or agree with the reasons he was fighting doesnt make him a scumbag or tyrant.
    If you look back at our own civil war there would still be a divide as to who were heros and who were scumbags. It just depends what side of the fence your on


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    #24
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    twitch1984 wrote: »
    Just because someone doesnt understand or agree with the reasons he was fighting doesnt make him a scumbag or tyrant.

    your the only poster to bring "scumbag" into the debate.


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    #25
    twitch1984
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭twitch1984


    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    your the only poster to bring "scumbag" into the debate.

    Read the first post again..........


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    #26
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    he stayed behind the lines and left others to do the fighting.

    Wrong.
    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    how great can he be when his idols were communist tyrants and his loyality was to communism which was responsible for the deaths of countless millions of people around the world.

    Communism wasn't responsible for one death. The people behind the wheel of states that may have used communist policies on the other hand is a different story. Che was a marxist. He saw mass inequality in Cuba and created the framework that corrected what Batista promoted.
    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    and why on earth is he being compared to Michael Collins?

    I would imagine because both were revolutionaries.


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    #27
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    seanybiker wrote: »
    Cant understand his hero status. He murdered people. Whats heroic about that?

    He fought in part of a civil war, with intent on removing Batista and his supporters. The same Batista that hung children from lamposts to warn off enemies. The same Batista that allowed for mass civil and economic inequality.

    Today's Cuba, while not perfect affords everyone the right to have a roof over their head, free access to education up to university level and free access to healthcare. Cuba's literacy rating is higher than the US's. It does all this, despite an embargo on it from the US. Anyone who doesn't find the above impressive, from a country which is inherently poor - is in some serious denial.

    Che Guevara was certainly and is certainly worthy of hero status. Civil war is never pretty - but in the sake of Cuba, it was certainly a necessary evil.


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    #28
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    twitch1984 wrote: »
    Read the first post again..........

    sorry . my mistake . i was lookig in the antis for scumbag didnt think it was in the op.

    "Communism wasn't responsible for one death. The people behind the wheel of states that may have used communist policies on the other hand is a different story." come on . to say it was the people behind communism and not those who carried it out , who were communists / marxists , and the mass murder of millions and millions dying in the gulags that followed is a bit much. every country behind the old iorn curtain suffered none more than russia.

    "He fought in part of a civil war, with intent on removing Batista and his supporters. The same Batista that hung children from lamposts to warn off enemies. The same Batista that allowed for mass civil and economic inequality."
    replace the word batista with communism / marxism and the same could have been said about communist cuba or any countries over run by communism.

    "Today's Cuba, while not perfect affords everyone the right to have a roof over their head, free access to education up to university level and free access to healthcare. Cuba's literacy rating is higher than the US's. It does all this, despite an embargo on it from the US. Anyone who doesn't find the above impressive, from a country which is inherently poor - is in some serious denial."
    i agree with some of what you say here and the embargo is wrong as the one on iraq was wrong , but if what you say about how cuba is so great , why has there been so many refuges fleeing cuba in little boats for decades rather than live in the communist utopia that has always been promised to the communist foot soldiers before the revolutions? they took their chances in the ocean for a chance of freedom in another country rather than live in their homeland.


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    #29
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Che supported the 1956 invasion of Hungary.
    brianthebard wrote: »
    Link/Evidence?

    I've read this too. Most recently here: Jorge Companero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara
    http://www.amazon.com/Companero-Life-Death-Che-Guevara/dp/0679759409

    And how he was annoyed with Kruschev for comdemning Stalin. The more I've read of Che, the more of a dissapointment he becomes post Cuban revolution.

    Where are the redeeming characteristics? What good did he do?

    The disinterested reaction of Bolivian peasant to his "revolution" was very telling.

    To go back to the Cuban Civil War, it wasn't a Marxist Che force which overthrew Batista. It was a larger coalition. As Castro moved further towards the Soviets, many in the revoutionary movement who disagreed were jailed or forced to flee. Even in the early years there was talk of the revolution being betrayed. e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huber_Matos


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    #30
    seanybiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    twitch1984 wrote: »
    Wheather people think he is a hero or not is everyones personal opinion. The main problem is people think they know everything about che just because they have a t-shirt/poster etc.. with his picture on it.
    Personally I think he was a hero fighting for what he believed in. Just because someone doesnt understand or agree with the reasons he was fighting doesnt make him a scumbag or tyrant.
    If you look back at our own civil war there would still be a divide as to who were heros and who were scumbags. It just depends what side of the fence your on
    sure didnt hitler fight for what he believed in. Sadly one of my mates thinks he is a hero. Fecking plonker. Not you, my mate.


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    #31
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    seanybiker wrote: »
    sure didnt hitler fight for what he believed in. Sadly one of my mates thinks he is a hero. Fecking plonker. Not you, my mate.

    Hitler fought for a supreme race and murdered 6 million jews.

    Che Guevara fought to remove a brutal dictator that hung children from lamposts, who upheld mass social inequality.

    They are hardly comparable Seán.

    If you compare Cuba from before and after Ché, there is a quantifiable improvement in the lives of Cubans.

    Only 8% of the rural population of Cuba had access to healthcare before Ché - Now 100% of cubans have access to healthcare. 23% of Cubans were illiterate before Ché - Now it's down to between 3-4%. Unemployment was reduced, homeless rates were reduced. Cuba is a better place because of Ché Guevara.

    Likening him to Adolf Hitler is silly.


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