Man arrested over lemur sale

SCI

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8529358.stm

Another blow to animals keeping in Ireland and the uk.

star-pants

For those that might not be able to access

A seven month undercover investigation has led to the seizure of five lemurs, which are protected endangered animals, as they were being offered for sale out of the back of a van.
A Ballymena-based pet shop owner was caught in a sting operation, involving the police and USPCA.
He was trying to hand over the exotic animals in the car-park of a shopping centre in Banbridge.

peasant

SCI wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8529358.stm

Another blow to animals keeping in Ireland and the uk.

How is that a "blow" ?

Endangered protected species are just that and dealing in them is illegal

SCI

peasant wrote: »

How is that a "blow" ?

Endangered protected species are just that and dealing in them is illegal

Well I'm sure a well informed person like yourself will know that there are certain groups out there calling for a ban on the import,breeding and keeping of all exotic animals and things this this just gives them more ammo. It's not illegal to keep,breed,sell or deal in Endangered/protected species,who ever told you this is talk through there hat.

peasant

all types of lemurs are protected by CITES, which makes it illegal hunt or capture lemurs for trade, except for scientific research, and to breed in zoos.

http://www.thewildones.org/Animals/lemur.html

seamus

SCI wrote: »

It's not illegal to keep,breed,sell or deal in Endangered/protected species,who ever told you this is talk through there hat.

Yes, but we have enitirely the opposite problem in this country where you could effectively breed and sell alligators completely uncontrolled if you fancied it.

We need comprehensive legislation that requires at the very least:

1. Licencing of breeders of domestic/indigenous animals & pets, including certification and inspection of their facilities

2. Strict control and licensing for importers of non-indigenous animals - Importing or owning a non-indigenous animal without licence/state permission should be punishable by heavy fines and imprisonment. They can do serious damage to the ecosystem if imported uncontrolled

3. Importing or owning protected/endangered species should be restricted only to those who can demonstrate that they have the necessary skills and facilities to handle the animals, who intend on breeding the animals but who *do not* intend on selling or exporting the animals for sale. Selling or exporting for sale, a protected/endangered species should be punishable by a minimum of 5 years in jail - i.e. you should only buy an endangered species if you intend on breeding it and keeping it or releasing it into the wild.

Wolfsberg

peasant wrote: »

How is that a "blow" ?

Endangered protected species are just that and dealing in them is illegal

You are talking nonsense! Endangered protected species are that but if the animals are bred in captivity and have the CITES paperwork to prove it then there isn't a law in the land that restricts their trade.
You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the lemurs are wild caught. You should also probably do some research on private conservation of endangered species like the ring tailed lemur. For example, the hyacinth macaw whos natural habitat has been destroyed in Northern Brazil for agricultural land. There are only about 2000 of these birds left in the wild but possibly five or ten times that amount kept in both private and public collections around the world.
Yes we need to ensure that endangered animals aren't taken from the wild but we need to promote endangered animals being captively bred both publicly and privately, while ensuring the animals are properly cared for.

That's my piece said anyway.

Magenta

Well the fact is that no animal, least of all a high-maintenance endangered species, should be sold out of the back of a van in a car park and it is a good thing that he got done for it.

peasant

Wolfsberg wrote: »

You should also probably do some research on private conservation of endangered species like the ring tailed lemur.

Sorry ...but the term "conservation" (private or otherwise) just doesn't match with "petshop" or "back of van" ...no matter how hot under the collar you get.

But I'm willing to learn ...so please explain (or point me to a suitable website) how exactly private people can help to conserve a species ...as in "conserve" and not just "keep" or "collect"

SCI

Wolfsberg wrote: »

You are talking nonsense! Endangered protected species are that but if the animals are bred in captivity and have the CITES paperwork to prove it then there isn't a law in the land that restricts their trade.
You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the lemurs are wild caught. You should also probably do some research on private conservation of endangered species like the ring tailed lemur. For example, the hyacinth macaw whos natural habitat has been destroyed in Northern Brazil for agricultural land. There are only about 2000 of these birds left in the wild but possibly five or ten times that amount kept in both private and public collections around the world.
Yes we need to ensure that endangered animals aren't taken from the wild but we need to promote endangered animals being captively bred both publicly and privately, while ensuring the animals are properly cared for.

That's my piece said anyway.

Here,here,it'S perfectly legal to keep CITES App 1 annex A animals in captivity.In fact take the Herman's tortoise for example,sold in pets shops all over the country every day. Many boa's I keep are listed as App2 annex B and I keep and breed them perfectly legally and why not? Some locality boa's I have here won't be in the wild in a few decades and keeping there lines pure is very important. Zoo's could never do the work responsible private keeps can,there's just not enough of them.

SCI

seamus wrote: »

Yes, but we have enitirely the opposite problem in this country where you could effectively breed and sell alligators completely uncontrolled if you fancied it.

We need comprehensive legislation that requires at the very least:

1. Licencing of breeders of domestic/indigenous animals & pets, including certification and inspection of their facilities

2. Strict control and licensing for importers of non-indigenous animals - Importing or owning a non-indigenous animal without licence/state permission should be punishable by heavy fines and imprisonment. They can do serious damage to the ecosystem if imported uncontrolled

3. Importing or owning protected/endangered species should be restricted only to those who can demonstrate that they have the necessary skills and facilities to handle the animals, who intend on breeding the animals but who *do not* intend on selling or exporting the animals for sale. Selling or exporting for sale, a protected/endangered species should be punishable by a minimum of 5 years in jail - i.e. you should only buy an endangered species if you intend on breeding it and keeping it or releasing it into the wild.

First point I live in N.Ireland and wee do have DWA legislation,you can't sell alligators completely uncontrolled if you fancied it.
Are you saying if someone breeds say a boa,python or tortoise they should release it into the wild? lol
We have dog licenses now or dog taxes as they call them in parts of Europe and it hasn't stopped morons owning them.

seamus

SCI wrote: »

First point I live in N.Ireland and wee do have DWA legislation,you can't sell alligators completely uncontrolled if you fancied it.

"This country" is the republic, and we have no such controls.

Are you saying if someone breeds say a boa,python or tortoise they should release it into the wild? lol

I'm saying that someone should be permitted to breed/own a protected species only if they intend on keeping it or sending it back to its indigenous country to be released.

kildara

I don't think selling animals from the back of a van bodes well for the species. Was this man selling these to anybody who had the money or did he ensure that the people he sold to had the experience and facilities to rear and correctly care for the animals.

Whilst I appreciate the hard work being done by those who are genuine in their motives for breeding "rare" animals, surely you must agree that offering them for sale out of the back of a van is not the sign of somebody committed to "saving the species"?

SCI wrote: »

We have dog licenses now

In the UK?

Discodog

The fact that some are prepared to come here & support the buying, selling, keeping & breeding of wild animals is reason enough to introduce legislation. Anyone who is genuinely involved in conservation would have nothing to fear from licensing.

SCI

seamus wrote: »

"This country" is the republic, and we have no such controls.
.

In that case you are not talking off topic this happened in Banbridge Co Down N.Ireland.

SCI

kildara wrote: »

I don't think selling animals from the back of a van bodes well for the species. Was this man selling these to anybody who had the money or did he ensure that the people he sold to had the experience and facilities to rear and correctly care for the animals.

Whilst I appreciate the hard work being done by those who are genuine in their motives for breeding "rare" animals, surely you must agree that offering them for sale out of the back of a van is not the sign of somebody committed to "saving the species"?


In the UK?

No one's is saying it's right to sell lemers or any animals outta the back of a van,of course it's not,it go's with out saying.

SCI

Discodog wrote: »

The fact that some are prepared to come here & support the buying, selling, keeping & breeding of wild animals is reason enough to introduce legislation. Anyone who is genuinely involved in conservation would have nothing to fear from licensing.

The problem here is when you say wild animals what's your definition? A species of reptile that is C/b from generation to generation from the 1960's? It this a wild animal?

God knows the ROI needs better animal welfare legislation,you's are about 20 years behind the rest of Europe. Speaking from N.Ireland were we have licensing for dogs and dangerous animals,it's solved nothing. A dog license is just a tax,a bit of paper no more and it would cost a fortune to do a dog keeping test for example. The DWA up here in my eye's hasn't worked,the people that were keeping the animals correctly for years got the license and insurance. These people were never the problem it was the small minority and these people were just pushed under ground,who knows what they have. Another thing if you did introduce a license to keeping endangered wild animals and say boa constrictors were on the list. All my boa's a C/b and have been for generations but they are all listed as CITES APP II annex B,who's qualified enough here to tell me how I should be keeping them? If I ever do need advise I have go to contacts in the states or Europe. I have one vet here that is an exotic specialist and he's always been able to help me when the occasions have arising but he wouldn't have the knowledge for the long term care,locality info etc the a specialist keeper has.

Magenta

SCI wrote: »

God knows the ROI needs better animal welfare legation,you's are about 20 years behind the rest of Europe. Speaking from N.Ireland were we have licensing for dogs and dangerous animals,it's solved nothing.

We have dog licenses in the Republic too.

SCI

Magenta wrote: »

We have dog licenses in the Republic too.

And does it stop dogs being abused or nutters from keeping them? I have a license for a motorcycle does that stop me doing 300Kph no,it's the 3-6 months in jail. We and you need stronger legislation,not a silly piece of paper.

SCI

seamus wrote: »

I'm saying that someone should be permitted to breed/own a protected species only if they intend on keeping it or sending it back to its indigenous country to be released.

What makes you think this would be best for the animals that's being released or indeed there fellow species that are all ready there. Do you have any research or knowledge on the subject?

kildara

SCI wrote: »

No one's is saying it's right to sell lemers or any animals outta the back of a van,of course it's not,it go's with out saying.

So how is this story a blow to keeping animals then?

SCI wrote: »

Another blow to animals keeping in Ireland and the uk.

cos!!

kildara wrote: »

So how is this story a blow to keeping animals then?

Check post 4!

SCI

cos!! wrote: »

Check post 4!

lol or read PETA's website.