The South American Flops XI

Karmafaerie

You're not going to get better than Rene "El Loco" Higuita.

Spent more time outside his box than in.
Skinned attackers, went on driving runs, played a sweeper, scored free kicks, and of course the now infamous scorpion save.

I remember him being linked to either Villa or Arsenal at one stage.
Would have been legendary if it had happened.

m@cc@

Karmafaerie wrote: »

You're not going to get better than Rene "El Loco" Higuita.

Spent more time outside his box than in.
Skinned attackers, went on driving runs, played a sweeper, scored free kicks, and of course the now infamous scorpion save.

I remember him being linked to either Villa or Arsenal at one stage.
Would have been legendary if it had happened.

Can't view youtube in work, but just as famous was him trying to skin Roger Milla and failing, badly.

Karmafaerie

m@cc@ wrote: »

Can't view youtube in work, but just as famous was him trying to skin Roger Milla and failing, badly.

That's in the vid too.;)

Never did a nickname for a player suit more, than "El Loco".

m@cc@

Karmafaerie wrote: »

That's in the vid too.;)

Never did a nickname for a player suit more, than "El Loco".

Wiki wrote:

Higuita was imprisoned in 1993 after getting involved in a kidnapping. Acting as a go-between for the drug barons Pablo Escobar and Carlos Molina, he was largely responsible for securing the release of Molina's daughter by delivering the ransom money. He received $64,000 for his services, which breaks Colombian law as it is an offence to profit from a kidnapping. He was incarcerated for seven months before being released without charge. Commenting on the case, he has stated that "I'm a footballer, I didn't know anything about kidnapping laws

Good god. :eek:

MementoMori

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't care what they signed for. Whenever I've seen them they look like liabilities and I'd wager have cost Liverpool an awful lot of points in their time at the club. They are not top four standard imo and those are the standards I am setting for them.

Maybe next time before you go foaming at the mouth you can remind yourself that others are entitled to views that differ from your own.

The thing about this is that Aurelio has clearly not cost Liverpool (in the usual defenders sense of being responsible for mistakes) a lot of points when he has played. His major problem has been his horrendous injury record. He's also looked much less effective when played on the left-wing or as a midfielder which is where he has played the majority of this season (when fit) where his one-footedness is more exposed. To call him a flop is well wide of the mark in my opinion.

Calling Insua a flop is incorrect as well given his age and level of experience. He has just turned 21 last month and is playing in basically his first full season in the premiership.
People compare him to the other LBs in the top teams without realising how much more experience they have. Comparing him to Cole (29) Evra (28), and Clichy (24 - with over 200 appearances already for Arsenal) Bridge (29) Warnock (28) doesn't take into account the comparitive levels of experience.

I think to be named a flop you have to take the level of expectations when a player arrives into account and is kinda follows on from how much was paid for a player. Another factor has to be age which is where Lucas and Anderson can't be judged to the same level as players who are more developed when they arrive.

Also even though whoever wrote this admitted as much the inclusion of Cavalieri is a joke and just smacks of laziness.

Irishcrx

Alot of the brazilian players seem to have trouble adapting to the English game and get home sick. Adriano was another one at Inter, drug problems, drinking and all sorts and alot of them end up back in the Brazilian game after a few years. Was thinking of this the other day and came up with more examples of this, can't remember them all now though. Vagnar Love at CSKA was another ,

GavRedKing

Fairly decent list, wouldnt have Crespo on it though.

D'Agger

m@cc@ wrote: »

One that stands out for me was Higuita. Also, although not South American, remember Jorge Campos and his nutty shirts that he designed himself?

Jorge Campos was some man for tie & dye, almost haluconagenic jerseys!! I maintain most South American keepers are on shrooms roughly 90% of the time they're between the sticks!!

Ferris_Bueller

Irishcrx wrote: »

Alot of the brazilian players seem to have trouble adapting to the English game and get home sick. Adriano was another one at Inter, drug problems, drinking and all sorts and alot of them end up back in the Brazilian game after a few years. Was thinking of this the other day and came up with more examples of this, can't remember them all now though. Vagnar Love at CSKA was another ,

Just recently there PSV had one who they released because of drug problems, cant think of his name.

Nalz

Crespo shouldnt be there

Mr Alan wrote: »

Lucas on a list of all time south american flops. ****in comical.

Not really, Forlan is on the subs and he did more at Anfield that Lucas will ever do

Seriouly don't be biased, he hasn't been great at all. He makes Anderson at United look like money well spent (well not really but I want to believe that!)

Dont be at yourself

Mark González

</thread>

Johnny_the_fox

Rafael Scheidt - without a doubt - 5 million for 3 games with celtic. (but i feel sorry for the lad - he was injured when he joined)

mayordenis

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Did I commit the cardinal sin of knocking some bad Liverpool players?

not at all the only problem is you are simply incorrect.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well done on knocking some United players in response. You have won me over with such a fantastic retort.

I don't care what they signed for. Whenever I've seen them they look like liabilities and I'd wager have cost Liverpool an awful lot of points in their time at the club. They are not top four standard imo and those are the standards I am setting for them.

Maybe next time before you go foaming at the mouth you can remind yourself that others are entitled to views that differ from your own.

While I think flop is far too strong a word for the young Insua, who is good going forward but somewhat of a liability, I could see how he is seen by some as flop, shaky at the back no question, we got him in a trade for Paletta who cost us 2 million so to be fair lets say he cost 2 million? for 2 million he's worth the money, and doing a very good job and improving all the time.

Aurelio?

I don't really know how to respond. If you are having a go at his injury record then you have a slight case maybe. But for free he's played about 80 games for liverpool so around 20 a season so far and has always been one of our better players when playing, especially in our run in last year, the guy is an incredibly talented, fantastic passer, with plenty of positional sense, the only thing you can fault him on is pace, and even then he's actually not slow.


All in all I think your post was either totally blinkered biased ****e, the post of someone who knows nothing about football, or poor trolling.

Trilla

Trilla wrote: »

He makes Anderson at United look like money well spent (well not really but I want to believe that!)

lucas is a superior player to Anderson. Anderson cant get in the united team and Lucas is first choice midfield for pool atm, a midfield which made the utd midfield look like school boys when they played this year, even suggesting him at his age and considering that he has played well this season is just ridiculous.

Karmafaerie

Lucas.
Just turned 23.
£6,000,000 (aprox)
102 games played.
4 goals.
10 assists.

Anderson
Just short of 22.
£18,000,000 (aprox)
95 games played.
2 goals.
12 assists.



Similar in all aspects.
Except one.

Mr.Nice Guy

mayordenis wrote: »

not at all the only problem is you are simply incorrect.

Why am I incorrect? Because you say so? It's all subjective at the end of the day and if we all had to conform to everyone else's opinions it would be a very dull message board.

mayordenis wrote:

While I think flop is far too strong a word for the young Insua, who is good going forward but somewhat of a liability, I could see how he is seen by some as flop, shaky at the back no question, we got him in a trade for Paletta who cost us 2 million so to be fair lets say he cost 2 million? for 2 million he's worth the money, and doing a very good job and improving all the time.

Aurelio?

I don't really know how to respond. If you are having a go at his injury record then you have a slight case maybe. But for free he's played about 80 games for liverpool so around 20 a season so far and has always been one of our better players when playing, especially in our run in last year, the guy is an incredibly talented, fantastic passer, with plenty of positional sense, the only thing you can fault him on is pace, and even then he's actually not slow.

All in all I think your post was either totally blinkered biased ****e, the post of someone who knows nothing about football, or poor trolling.

You can think what you like about my post. I'm not going to throw a wobbler just because someone doesn't agree with me.

Any time I've seen those two players I've been unimpressed. I don't see them as good enough for Liverpool or a top four side. Lucas has been slated on this thread too. I actually think he could come good. It's all subjective.

I have to say I'm pretty tired of the snobbery that is so prevalent around this place whenever people come across views they don't like.

The 'you know nothing about football stuff' is just sad, childish guff and so is the accusation of trolling. F*cking hell this sort of crap should be left in the playground where it belongs.

I've noticed some people seem to want to silence those whose thoughts they don't like by attacking the poster and not the post and it doesn't help the atmosphere of the place one bit.

Mr Alan

Trilla wrote: »

Seriouly don't be biased, he hasn't been great at all. He makes Anderson at United look like money well spent (well not really but I want to believe that!)

I ain't being biased at all. he's been very good for us for the last year. In fact, he's probably been our best outfield player this season. Being better than Anderson and at a third of the price means anyone tryin to include him in this list is a silly silly boy.

Mr Alan

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Why am I incorrect? Because you say so? It's all subjective at the end of the day and if we all had to conform to everyone else's opinions it would be a very dull message board.

Its not subjective at all. Football is not art. Its a game, some people are good at it, some people aren't. If i say Messi is ****e, are people not allowed laugh at me? Afterall, its all subjective :rolleyes: you say you've never been impressed by either player, both played at old trafford last season and had very very good games with their team winning 4-1. Both also played at anfield earlier this season against united and had very good games, were you're eyes closed for these or something?

rossie1977

is this the same aurelio that had a certain c.ronaldo in his pocket on more than one occasion??

Mr Alan

yep, the same aurelio who's also scored cracking goals against United and Chelsea last year too. His only problem since he's been at Liverpool has been fitmess. Apart from that he's been very good.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr Alan wrote: »

Its not subjective at all. Football is not art. Its a game, some people are good at it, some people aren't. If i say Messi is ****e, are people not allowed laugh at me? Afterall, its all subjective :rolleyes: you say you've never been impressed by either player, both played at old trafford last season and had very very good games with their team winning 4-1. Both also played at anfield earlier this season against united and had very good games, were you're eyes closed for these or something?

Are you serious? It's entirely subjective. As for your analogy yes people are entitled to laugh at you if you say Messi is ****e but they are merely expressing their own opinion as you are yours. That's what football is about - opinions.

There is no objective handbook that dictates who the great players are or who the bad players are.

On another thread recently you and I disagreed about the greatness of Bergkamp. Are you seriously saying one of us has the correct answer and the other does not?

I'd wager in two years time Insua and Aurelio will have followed the previous example of Arbeloa and Dossena. They are not good enough imo. Citing one or two notable performances doesn't prove anything. Hell we could acclaim Forlan and others on that basis.

Mr Alan

do you actually watch Liverpool? I don't think you'd find a Liverpool fan in the world who wouldn't say Arbeloa wasn't a good player for us. Similarly wit Aurelio, he probably will have left within a couple of years, doesn't change the fact he's been a good player for us.

mayordenis

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Why am I incorrect? Because you say so? It's all subjective at the end of the day and if we all had to conform to everyone else's opinions it would be a very dull message board.



You can think what you like about my post. I'm not going to throw a wobbler just because someone doesn't agree with me.

Any time I've seen those two players I've been unimpressed. I don't see them as good enough for Liverpool or a top four side. Lucas has been slated on this thread too. I actually think he could come good. It's all subjective.

I have to say I'm pretty tired of the snobbery that is so prevalent around this place whenever people come across views they don't like.

The 'you know nothing about football stuff' is just sad, childish guff and so is the accusation of trolling. F*cking hell this sort of crap should be left in the playground where it belongs.

I've noticed some people seem to want to silence those whose thoughts they don't like by attacking the poster and not the post and it doesn't help the atmosphere of the place one bit.

No I just think your opinion is stupid, like I've said, I have no problem with people having a differing opinion to mine, however when someone comes out with nonsense I will always point that out.

I attacked your opinion and post I'm entitled to do so, it was nonsense as is the above, your a pretty good poster but certainly biased on this one, or maybe your don't watch much liverpool and that would make sense, but I'm sorry hiding behind it "subjective" or "opinion" your whole life is cheap, opinions can be wrong, for instance this is Insua's 1st season really in the first team, and he's actually got the most assists for any player at Liverpool this season, so you can have your opinion that a 2 million 21 year old Argentinian full international left back is a flop, but that opinion is wrong.

I don't care if it's about Liverpool or a player I like, I care that it is wrong.

MementoMori

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'd wager in two years time Insua and Aurelio will have followed the previous example of Arbeloa and Dossena. They are not good enough imo.

So which one of Insua or Aurelio do you reckon Real Madrid will buy?

Mr.Nice Guy

mayordenis wrote: »

No I just think your opinion is stupid, like I've said, I have no problem with people having a differing opinion to mine, however when someone comes out with nonsense I will always point that out.

I attacked your opinion and post I'm entitled to do so, it was nonsense as is the above, your a pretty good poster but certainly biased on this one, or maybe your don't watch much liverpool and that would make sense, but I'm sorry hiding behind it "subjective" or "opinion" your whole life is cheap, opinions can be wrong, for instance this is Insua's 1st season really in the first team, and he's actually got the most assists for any player at Liverpool this season, so you can have your opinion that a 2 million 21 year old Argentinian full international left back is a flop, but that opinion is wrong.

I don't care if it's about Liverpool or a player I like, I care that it is wrong.

Attack my opinion and post by all means but I'd appreciate it if you'd do so without calling me blinkered and biased, implying I'm a troll and insinuating I know nothing about football. You're a pretty good poster yourself and that sort of stuff's not necessary.

Insua was picked apart by Alan Hansen on MOTD not too long ago for his defensive frailties and every time I've seen him he's looked dodgy. Perhaps he will come good in time but I don't see the evidence of it in the present moment. I think he has a lot to learn and at a club like Liverpool with the pressure involved I don't believe he's going to make it. At the moment then all things considered therefore, I'd view him as a flop.

Aurelio on the other hand is 30 years old, very injury-prone and no one would seriously put this guy up there with the likes of Evra, Cole and Clichy.

Here's some stats for you (taken from a Liverpool fan site so I'm not alone in dismissing this guy):

* Averaged 16 appearances per season for Valencia between 2000 and 2006

* Averaged 21 starts per season since coming to Liverpool.

* Averages 1 goal and 3 assists per season for Liverpool.

So yeah those are my reasons for calling these players flops. They are my opinions and I stand by them. If people don't agree...hey, fair enough.

MementoMori wrote:

So which one of Insua or Aurelio do you reckon Real Madrid will buy?

Presumably whichever one can best contribute to their fantastic defensive record.

dfx-

Dalglish signed a couple of stars for this team at Newcastle, iirc..

Mr Alan

Mr Nice Guy, the stats you've put up do nothing except show that he has injury problems-which we already know. He has however been an invaluable squad player for us in that same time period & provided many excellent performances for us.

Just to put his attacking stats into perspective, last season Clichy got 1 goal & 0 assists in 30 starts. Evra, 0 goals & 2 assists in 28 starts. Cole, 1 goal & 0 assists in 33 starts.

Aurelio got 2 goals & 4 assists in 19 starts.

---

if we were arguing whether or not he had been a very good buy for Liverpool, i could possibly understand your point, however, considering we're arguing ALL TIME FLOPS! i can't help but think you're either taking the piss, or just will refuse to admit you're wrong.

---

on Insua too, ridiculous to have him in a list of "all time" anything, his first full season with Liverpool & although he has struggled defensively on a few occassions, he has done well in the main after been thrown in at the deep end.

considering you brought stats into it, here's his in comparrison to the the three lads you mentioned.

Cole-22 starts, 3 goals, 3 assists.
Evra-27 starts, 0 goals, 2 assists.
Clichy-14 starts, 0 goals, 0 assists.
Insua-25 starts, 0 goals, 4 assists.

---

really is just insane to try & include either in a list of all time flops.

And by the way, that Liverpool fan site is run by a manc on a wind-up or someone with serious mental health problems.

recent articles include;
"why Hicks & Gillette saved Liverpool"
"spirit of shankly thugs planning to assault G&H"
"Rafa Benitez, he hasn't got a clue"
"Rafa biggest transfer blunders"
"Gillette & Hicks, the TRUTH behind Liverpools sensationalised debt"
"13 reasons why Liverpool should sell Mascherano"

he has also gave an interview to republic of mancunia site for crying out loud and published it on his website! delusions of grandeur or wat.

Great site that, no agenda there whatsoever! Funnily enough, the guy who runs it, Jamie Kanwar, was asked to meet reps from SOS to discuss some of the issues he has with them & refused to meet them in Liverpool claiming it was not a neutral ground! lol

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr Alan let me correct you on one important point here - we are not arguing "ALL TIME FLOPS", we are arguing all time South American flops in the Premier League. I stand by my argument that the players in question merit inclusion on this basis.

I'm disappointed you have taken out of this discussion the belief that I'm, quote, "either taking the piss, or just will refuse to admit...wrong."

Listen, if your sentence is how you honestly perceive this discussion then I am wasting my time. Those are not great options are they and show you don't think much of my opinion. That's a pity as I respect your views even though I don't share them.

On to the stats - you have called Aurelio "an invaluable squad player" despite his injuries. I would contend that a player cannot be a valuable squad player if he spends most of his time in the treatment room. The key stat above all is surely that he can't feature consistently. That is what I would argue anyway. I also have to add whenever I have seen him in action I have not been impressed.

You again use stats to defend Insua. These stats, like Aurelio's however, are purely offensively based. What I would say on Insua is if we were to list the goals conceded by all left-backs this season, and analyse the ones each full-back must take responsibility for, I repeat my earlier view that Insua has cost Liverpool a lot of points this season - much moreso than Evra and Cole. (Clichy may be there or thereabouts)

As regards the agenda of the site I linked to, I'll have to take your word on that as I'm not familiar with the site.

To sum up, you obviously believe these players are too good to be flops. As I said I respect your view though I don't share it. I happen to see them as being poor by top four standards and liabilities for their teams. That is my view. You seem to not respect it. That's fair enough. There's nothing I can do about that though it disappoints me.

I'll leave you with the last word on this as I can honestly say I've said all I want to say on this subject.

Nalz

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'll leave you with the last word on this as I can honestly say I've said all I want to say on this subject.

I don't know why ya bothered! Theres a post down there about "regular in liverpool team" in reference to Lucas, and "Anderson cant get into the United team". Something along those lines.

Where the hell are Liverpool now with this regular and "best player this season"? In the CL - no, guaranteed a top PL 6 finish even - no, in the fa cup or league cup - again no. I was also joking about Anderson. I dont rate him that highly as a player/prospect. I certainly don't rate Lucas. Average over-hyped youngsters.

Off to sleep now night night lads

Karmafaerie

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You again use stats to defend Insua. These stats, like Aurelio's however, are purely offensively based.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Aurelio on the other hand is 30 years old, very injury-prone and no one would seriously put this guy up there with the likes of Evra, Cole and Clichy.

Here's some stats for you (taken from a Liverpool fan site so I'm not alone in dismissing this guy):

* Averaged 16 appearances per season for Valencia between 2000 and 2006

* Averaged 21 starts per season since coming to Liverpool.

* Averages 1 goal and 3 assists per season for Liverpool.

Ahhhm, I'm sorry, but can you please explain for me how it's okay for you to post offensive stats for Aurelio to slate him (and also cocking it up, and ignoring it when pointed out to you I may add), but it's not okay for somebody who disagrees with you to post offensive stats for Insua?!!

Mr.Nice Guy

Very last contribution I promise...

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Ahhhm, I'm sorry, but can you please explain for me how it's okay for you to post offensive stats for Aurelio to slate him (and also cocking it up, and ignoring it when pointed out to you I may add), but it's not okay for somebody who disagrees with you to post offensive stats for Insua?!!

Of course he's entitled to post offensive stats. What I was saying was that we have to also acknowledge his defensive frailties too, particularly as that is the main weakness of Insua (imo anyway). If we just judge the player on one area we're missing the point.

Karmafaerie

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Very last contribution I promise...



Of course he's entitled to post offensive stats. What I was saying was that we have to also acknowledge his defensive frailties too, particularly as that is the main weakness of Insua (imo anyway). If we just judge the player on one area we're missing the point.

I honestly believe you're missing the point her mate.

To be a flop, a lot of things have to be taken into account.


Price.
Abilities.
Performances.
Age (as in ability to improve).
Attitude.
Being sold for a loss.
Injury record.
Hype surrounding him on joining.

And a few others I can't think of right now.


You're taking one aspect of each player, Insua's defensive frailties, and Aurelio's injury record, and making your decisions on that.
To get a fair and balanced opinion you have to take all aspects into account.


For instance, yes Insua hasn't been top level at the back, but he's good going forward, very young, has a great attitude, cost little, has plenty of time to improve, was signed as a prospect, not the next Roberto Carlos, and if sold in the morning, would be sold as a profit.

So cons:

Defensive frailties.

Pros:

Everything else!


Yes Aurelio has had a lot of injury problems, but he was brought in on a free, can cover three positions adequately, is steady all round, delivers a good set piece, has a good attitude, and was brought in to be a squad player, which is exactly what he is.

Cons:

Injury prone.

Pros:

Once again pretty much everything else!!!


Also, seeing as this thread is about the worst south American flops, and Gilberto is clearly worse than either of these two, why bring them up?
Are you trying to say that Gilberto was less of a flop?

Signed for £2,000,000.
Injured for the first two months.
Subbed at half time on his debut, after making the mistake to allow Hertha score the games only goal.
Made a grand total of 4 premier league starts.
And was not even sold, but had his contract terminated by Spurs!

Are you honestly trying to argue that Gilberto (leftback) was less of a flop than Insua (leftback) or Aurelio (leftback).
Bearing in mind that you went to great pains to saying...

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Mr Alan let me correct you on one important point here - we are not arguing "ALL TIME FLOPS", we are arguing all time South American flops in the Premier League. I stand by my argument that the players in question merit inclusion on this basis.

...and the last time I checked, Brazil, where Gilberto was born, played most of his career, plays his football now, and has been capped for the national team........is in South America.


So bearing all that in mind, are you still saying that Insua and Aurelio are more of a flop than him, cause if not, by your own words, you were wrong to insist they be in the list.

Peyton Manning

Im sorry, but I agree with the 'Pool folk.

Not on the basis that I think Insua is any good - I know next to very little about him other than what Ive seen in a handful of matches.

I disagree because he's 21.

Twenty. One. Years. Old.

In any walk of life, only the exceptionally talented will be seen as a success at that age. The others will be unproven.

Id hate to be your child if you expect me to have a house, wife, kids and 6 figure income at 21.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

I don't think you'd find a Liverpool fan in the world who wouldn't say Arbeloa wasn't a good player for us.

I know one, my auld lad . He thought he was useless, he had no time for him atall.

anonymous_joe

Erick Spoiled Logging wrote: »

I know one, my auld lad . He thought he was useless, he had no time for him atall.

My mum would have said the same thing. She's changed her mind now he's gone.

He reminds me in a way of John O'Shea - he's not outstanding by any means, but he's capable of performing more than competently at a high standard.

Johner

Insua - a flop? I've heard it all now. The chap has just turned 21 and is in his first full season! Anyway from what I have seen I thought Insua is doing fine for Liverpool. What did he wrong?

Nalz

Johner wrote: »

Insua - a flop? I've heard it all now. The chap has just turned 21 and is in his first full season! Anyway from what I have seen I thought Insua is doing fine for Liverpool. What did he wrong?

Nothing, I'd ignore anyone that says he's a flop. Had one or two dodgey moments but overall he's done well imo.

Lucas and Anderson are ten times more of a flop than him