Press: More cars now using city

antoinolachtnai

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/more-cars-now-using-city-despite-goslow-2073933.html

Car use in Dublin city centre is on the rise, despite the best efforts of the council to discourage motorists.

New data has suggested the number of cars entering the city centre is increasing.

Dublin City Council has been criticised for being anti-car after introducing the 30kph speed limit and banning private vehicles from the College Green area during peak times.

However, the latest information indicates motorists are coming into the city in greater numbers than previous years.

Since 1980, the council has been conducting traffic counts at 33 locations around the cordon formed by the Royal and Grand Canals.

The data is collected in November each year.

The count for last year shows that 64,254 cars passed through the cordon on a single day in November last year.

This was 278 more than the 63,976 figure for the previous year and also exceeded the totals from 2003 to 2007.

In 2002, the council logged 65,657 cars passing the cordon on the day of the count.

antoinolachtnai

GDP drops by 7 or 8 percent, 100,000 have lost their jobs, but the number of cars commuting to Dublin City keeps on increasing.

We are doing something fundamentally wrong here.

Nah, just that when Da Murphy drove into the city 20 years ago to get to work, now there's Da, Barry, Suzie and Jenny Murphy all growed up and driving.

It's population increase.

spank_inferno

Agreed, and aswell as a swelling population, there are more vehicles owned per head of population than in the days of yore.

I dont think its that big of a deal

The Swordsman

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah, just that when Da Murphy drove into the city 20 years ago to get to work, now there's Da, Barry, Suzie and Jenny Murphy all growed up and driving.

It's population increase.

And Barry, Suzie and Jenny have all left home but have been forced to live a long way from the city centre. As Dublin has expanded, the public transport infrastructure has basically remained the same. With the exception of two Luas lines, nothing major has happened in the last twenty years. Most Dubliners still depend on slow buses to get into town.

Most European cities of Dublin's size have metro sytems to get people in and out of the city centre efficiently. They also have integrated public transport -we cannot even do that.

When people are given a decent public transport alternative to the car, they will change.

Victor

Traffic expands to fill available space. The HGV ban mean fewer trucks going through the city. The road space they used to have has been re-occupied by cars.

Cookie_Monster

In fairness, 278 out of 63,976 is hardly a huge increase year on year. 0.4%, could have been raining that day...

markpb

The Swordsman wrote: »

As Dublin has expanded, the public transport infrastructure has basically remained the same. With the exception of two Luas lines, nothing major has happened in the last twenty years. Most Dubliners still depend on slow buses to get into town.

I'll agree that the fundamental changes that should have happened are badly needed but there have been lots of small incremental changes which have made a big difference. DPT means bus commuters from north Dublin can get to the city centre a lot faster (faster than people living in closer suburbs). The College Green bus gate means buses can pass through the city centre a lot faster than before which benefits people both passing through and waiting for buses on the other side.

On Dublin Bus's side, the Malahide road QBC upgrade knocked at least 20 minutes of bus times on that route. The new 128 and 140 bus routes meant faster and more direct bus routes instead of the old practice of winding through the housing estates of Coolock and Finglas. The new smartcard is much faster and more reliable than the old magstripe tickets and will hopefully be replaced by a fully integrated ticket later this year. (Irish Rail launched a limited trial of their smartcard this week too.)

Lastly, the Taxsaver programe makes public transport a lot more affordable. My annual DB/Luas ticket costs me just over €500 a year. I'll defy anyone to run a car in Dublin (even with free parking at home and work) for anything close to that.

Things are happening, not as quickly as anyone would like but they are happening. I think sometimes the little things make a big difference but Dublin and Dublin Bus fail to advertise it. Communication is just as important as shiny new buses and train lines.

D.L.R.

1. What do you expect when we don't have a proper metro network in a city of a million+ people?
2. What do you expect when you insist on shunting every single bus route up the O'Connell/D'Olier/Westmoreland axis.

We have also spent 20 years prioritising motorways over inner-city transport (two cheapo tram lines and some bus lanes is all Dublin got for the boom years), so it should come as no surprise that people still lean towards the car.

We have also spent the last 5 years focusing on connecting outlying areas to Dublin, like the luas extensions and the M3 motorway, and meanwhile the city core itself waits for investment. Thats like prioritising a leg operation on a patient with heart disease. Its all backwards!

We need major investment in this city yesterday - interconnector and metro are a start. Even the best traffic management in the world won't cut it when the road space simply ain't there. In the meantime a smarter bus network would help.

KevR

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

GDP drops by 7 or 8 percent, 100,000 have lost their jobs, but the number of cars commuting to Dublin City keeps on increasing.

We are doing something fundamentally wrong here.

Maybe it's cheaper for some people to drive than take public transport? If people are suffering wage cuts and are under financial strain then they could well ditch the faster train or bus for the cheaper car.

DART Interconnector and Metro North should take cars and buses* off the roads. The Luas is a success but didn't take many cars of the roads, mainly buses.

*I do think there are too many buses in Dublin at present. Don't get me wrong they are needed at the moment but more people need to move around in City Centre by rail, under the ground.

markpb

KevR wrote: »

Maybe it's cheaper for some people to drive than take public transport? If people are suffering wage cuts and are under financial strain then they could well ditch the faster train or bus for the cheaper car.

Maybe people *think* it's cheaper to take the car but unless you live outside Dublin city, I find it hard to believe it could be true.

antoinolachtnai

KevR wrote: »

DART Interconnector and Metro North should take cars and buses* off the roads. The Luas is a success but didn't take many cars of the roads, mainly buses.

I don't think the numbers bear this out. Luas took only 6m passengers from Dublin bus, so that means that around 14m came from some other mode (and presumably at least half of those were car users previously).

KevR

markpb wrote: »

Maybe people *think* it's cheaper to take the car but unless you live outside Dublin city, I find it hard to believe it could be true.

Maybe it actually is cheaper for some people? If they own/run a car anyway it could well work out cheaper in some cases.

Even if people *think* it's cheaper they will still drive. If they *thought* public transport was cheaper and were under financial strain then they would more than likely take public transport.


Another point - am I mistaken or have Dublin Bus made cuts to some services? If they have then that's obviously why there are more people driving.

Cookie_Monster

Bear in mind that while it may be more expensive to own and operate a car in Dublin for some it may be far quicker than public transport and hence worth the investment.

KevR

My point is that some people would own cars (they need them for whatever reason) and used to take public transport to work (despite owning a car) because it was quicker (but not necessarily cheaper than driving the car that they own). I could certainly see people quitting public transport and driving instead if they are stretched financially.

If people can afford it, they will use the quickest and most convenient method of transport. If money is tight, they will use the cheapest method.

seamus

KevR wrote: »

My point is that some people would own cars (they need them for whatever reason) and used to take public transport to work (despite owning a car) because it was quicker (but not necessarily cheaper than driving the car that they own). I could certainly see people quitting public transport and driving instead if they are stretched financially.

That's generally how it works. Someone is going to have a car anyway, they're not going to sell the car because they take the bus. So rather than spend €600/year on a commuter ticket and €1000/year on tax & insurance, when times get tough, the commuter ticket will get the chop and they'll jump in the car.

If people can afford it, they will use the quickest and most convenient method of transport. If money is tight, they will use the cheapest method.

It's a balance between time and convenience. People in general value their time very poorly and will happily wait an extra hour if it'll save them €5, when that hour is probably worth a whole lot more than that, productivity wise.
So people will happily take their car and spend an extra 30 minutes sitting in traffic because it's a comfortable, warm and private space when compared to the bus. It also drops you right to the door of where you're going. It's only when the car becomes a significant hinderance that people will change.

This is the thinking behind taking car parking spaces as BIK and DCC are now refusing to grant planning permission for more than a handful of car parking spaces in any commercial development, even if you plan to put them underground. If you make it so that taking your car is a hassle - have to find a space, have to pay for a space, have to walk to work, etc - then people are encouraged to investigate the alternatives.

The busses are a chicken-and-egg scenario. More bus users leads to more busses, leading to a better service. Yes, the busses are packed, but every single public transport system in the world is designed so that it's jam-packed at peak times, because what use is empty space? The tube in London is a good example of a system that's jam-packed at peak times but still works.

rgfuller

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The data is collected in November each year.

The count for last year shows that 64,254 cars passed through the cordon on a single day in November last year.

This was 278 more than the 63,976 figure for the previous year and also exceeded the totals from 2003 to 2007.

Perhaps the increase is the number of 'new' taxi's which some people may have switched to having lost their jobs last year.

dynamick

Give that most motoring costs are sunk at the start of the year, the consumer only worries about marginal costs: fuel, tolls and parking. There are no tolls along luas routes. Fuel is 10c/km - cheaper than buying a luas ticket. Parking is the big deciding factor. Free parking at your destination will make people choose to drive- even if as KevR says it takes longer.

A proportion of people in the luas catchment area will never use it because when faced with the car in the driveway or a stroll to the station, they will always choose the shorter walk.

There's a report about why people use luas here: http://www.dto.ie/luasafter_household.pdf

report wrote:

However, while much of the mode shift onto Luas has come from Bus, the overall effect of factoring in Luas has been positive, increasing the use of public transport (bus and Luas combined) in both Luas catchments. In the Red Line catchment, 30% now use public transport compared with 24% pre-Luas. In the Green Line, 28% use public transport most often compared with 21% pre-Luas.

So the luas led to an increase of a quarter in public transport use on the red line and an increase of a third on the green line.

Cookie_Monster

That report is a load of bollix and most people seem to be missing that. Levels are lower than 2002 and increased by only .4% which is nothing.

In the last 7 years car level have remained virtually the same, +- .5% a year is pretty meaningless especially since those numbers are highest daily totals and not averages over the entire month.

Of the cars that crossed the cordon between 2004 and 2009, "taxis accounted for 4pc rising to over 8pc in 2009"

How can two bits of cable on the road tell the difference between a car and a taxi?

seamus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How can two bits of cable on the road tell the difference between a car and a taxi?

Afaik, at the canals crossing where they do the count, the count is done by someone with a clipboard and a pen, ticking a box beside each vehicle they see as it crosses into the city.

Not a perfect system and not without obvious flaws, but it works overall for providing trend data.

Capt'n Midnight

Victor wrote: »

Traffic expands to fill available space. The HGV ban mean fewer trucks going through the city. The road space they used to have has been re-occupied by cars.

Traffic is also limited by parking and average speed. Once the Average speed rises (10Kph ?) many people are tempted to use the car, even if it means three hours and slower than public transport.

anyone got a link to the speeds that cause people to switch transport modes ?

tscul32

I started driving when the recession hit and traffic became lighter. I now leave home 20 mins later and get back 20 mins earlier than I did when I used to get the DART. A combination of timetabling, living 20 min walk from the station, having 2 kids to get to and pick up from creche (opposite direction from train station) some days and from granny's other days (2/3 the way into town) and working 20min walk from station in town.
I wish I was back on public transport as I miss having a snooze/reading and the walking to/from the office and I find the driving very tedious, not to mention annoying with the abysmal standard of driving in the city. As the weather gets a bit more springlike (any day now??) I might start back to the train on the one day I don't have to do drop off/pick up as other half can drop and collect me from station.

gurramok

I live in the south inner city and work in one of those lovely Business parks on the edge of the city on the northside so i'm a cross city car driver. (why did they allow them to be built??)

It has a bus stop right outside which goes to town and stops at Parnell st.(40d)

I have a bus stop right outside my apt door which is on a different bus route(2 & 3) so it will take 2 buses to get to and from work. Assuming buses come on time, it will take about an hour in journey time.

The car takes 30 minutes or less total journey at all times. I work early starts as well so adding an extra half hour to get up out of bed is a no go for me as my sleep time counts (and for the smart aleks, i won't go to bed half hour earlier especially when a quicker alternative solution exists!)

Of course, I wouldnt be travelling anywhere if my boss let us work from home but that ain't allowed

Now, if that 40d bus travelled just 5-10min further from the northside to anywhere in the south city centre(even Westmoreland/Trinity) rather than halting at friggin Parnell st, it would be a huge incentive to get the bus instead of driving when I work normal hours as my walk time to using just one bus would be slashed immensely. I reckon 40min maybe total travel time and that would win it for me.

Also, its more worrying about 2 buses turning up than one as worrying about one bus is better on the nerves

If there was an electronic system letting you know when the next bus comes on a reliable timetable like the Luas one has, i'd gladly pay the little extra. That mobile phone app for the buses i've found never to be accurate so i have no fate in the bus times.

BostonB

Theres a lot of people who's journeys are not within easy reach of a Dart, Luas or QBC. Also a lot of public transport is heavily overcrowded. Been like that for decades. Thats why so many drive. Its faster, easier and more pleasant.

The only thing quicker than the car, is 2 wheels. Motorbikes, scooters and (often) bicycles. If there were express lanes for bicycles, and people were made to feel safer on them, I reckon a lot more would cycle, if you look at the success of the Dublin Bikes. Not that everyone can cycle, but every few out of the car helps.

Capt'n Midnight

markpb wrote: »

Maybe people *think* it's cheaper to take the car but unless you live outside Dublin city, I find it hard to believe it could be true.

Cars have large fixed costs, and low running costs.
If we changed to a system where the revenue from Road Tax / VRT were replaced by duty on fuel then we would be closer to a pay-as-you-drive system.

At present I pay more to have the car sitting in the driveway each day than a travel 90

Carawaystick

car's work after 11:30pm and before 9:30am on weekends too.

Breezer

Carawaystick wrote: »

car's work after 11:30pm and before 9:30am on weekends too.

This. I'm a college student, currently on placement in Vincent's Hospital, along the Dart line. I live near Glenageary station and get the Dart to Sydney Parade every morning. My starting time varies from week to week, but can be as early as 6.45. Last year I had the opportunity to choose between Vincent's and the Mater and chose Vincent's partly for this reason; I simply cannot make the Mater by 6.45 on public transport from Glenageary, and I can't afford to move out from home. Next month I'm going to be in Crumlin Hospital for a few weeks and I may be back in the car, much as I hate driving in the mornings.

Similarly, if I'm out for the night, I don't want to be leaving at 11 to make the last Dart at 11.30. There's no Nitelinks during the week anymore and I can't afford to be spending on taxis. So I drive; luckily I'm a non-drinker.

If public transport (particularly the buses) started half an hour to an hour earlier, and ran to 12.30 or 1.00 (I'm aware that the Luas runs a bit later than the Dart and bus), as is the case in some European cities I've visited, it would make life a lot easier for me and would take my car off the road a lot more. I can't possibly be the only person with early starts or late finishes, so I suspect this could do a lot of good. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

The Swordsman

gurramok wrote: »

Now, if that 40d bus travelled just 5-10min further from the northside to anywhere in the south city centre(even Westmoreland/Trinity) rather than halting at friggin Parnell st, it would be a huge incentive to get the bus instead of driving when I work normal hours as my walk time to using just one bus would be slashed immensely. I reckon 40min maybe total travel time and that would win it for me.

Why is it that most buses that start on the Northside do not cross the Liffey? Do Dublin Bus think that there are no Northsiders working on the Southside?

markpb

The Swordsman wrote: »

Why is it that most buses that start on the Northside do not cross the Liffey? Do Dublin Bus think that there are no Northsiders working on the Southside?

Until the opening of the busgate, congestion in the city centre was terrible. It could take anywhere from 10 mins to an hour to get from St Stephens Green to Parnell Sq.

Victor

The Swordsman wrote: »

Why is it that most buses that start on the Northside do not cross the Liffey? Do Dublin Bus think that there are no Northsiders working on the Southside?

http://www.mkmap.com/dublin

1, 3, 4/a, 5, 7/a/b/d/e, 8, 10/a, 11/a/b, 13a, 14/a, 15/a/b/e/f/x, 16/a, 19/19a, 20b (peak only), 25/a/x, 26, 37/x, 38a/b/c, 39/a/b/c/x, 40a, 46a/b/c/d/e/x, 48a, 49/a/x, 51/b/d, 54a, 63, 65/b/x, 66/a/b/d/x, 67/a/x, 70a/b/x, 74/a (temporary) 76a, 78, 79/a, 83, 84/x, 90, 91, 92, 116, 121, 122, 123 (124 sub-route), 128, 140, 142, 145, 151, 172, 239, 746, 747, 748.

Now, many of these only come to the city centre, but they do cross the magical Liffey.

KC61

I suspect that when the Dublin Bus Network Review starts to be implemented that more cross-city routes will be part of it.

Cookie_Monster

The Swordsman wrote: »

Why is it that most buses that start on the Northside do not cross the Liffey? Do Dublin Bus think that there are no Northsiders working on the Southside?

most, if not all, major southside routes that start in the CC start on the north side, along the quays or Parnell / Mountjoy Sq as can be seen from Victor's list

KC61

The Swordsman wrote: »

Why is it that most buses that start on the Northside do not cross the Liffey? Do Dublin Bus think that there are no Northsiders working on the Southside?

To be fair the most of the corridors on the northside do have a link with the south city centre:

Malahide Road: 128 and 20b Peak hour
Swords Road: 3, 16/16a
Balymun: 4/4a, 13/13a, 19/19a
Finglas: 140

What's needed is are routes off the Howth Road, Blanchardstown and Lucan corridors to continue to the south city.

The Swordsman

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

most, if not all, major southside routes that start in the CC start on the north side, along the quays or Parnell / Mountjoy Sq as can be seen from Victor's list

You (and Victor) are being facetious :(

The Swordsman

KC61 wrote: »

To be fair the most of the corridors on the northside do have a link with the south city centre:

Malahide Road: 128 and 20b Peak hour
Swords Road: 3, 16/16a
Balymun: 4/4a, 13/13a, 19/19a
Finglas: 140

What's needed is are routes off the Howth Road, Blanchardstown and Lucan corridors to continue to the south city.

Malahide Road has the 42, 42a, 42b, 27, 27b, 43 which do not continue to the south city centre.

Swords Road has no main route past Santry (or effectively Collins Ave, as you would have to be desperate to take a 16 around the world to get to your destination) which cross to the southside.

The Xpresso services (from Swords anyway) are actually quite good in the morning, but they last ones are far too early.

Hopefully, the opening of the Bus Gate should lead to all buses crossing the city.

Cookie_Monster

The Swordsman wrote: »

You (and Victor) are being facetious :(

factual

The Swordsman

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

factual

:D:D

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

factual but facetious

KC61

The Swordsman wrote: »

Malahide Road has the 42, 42a, 42b, 27, 27b, 43 which do not continue to the south city centre.

Swords Road has no main route past Santry (or effectively Collins Ave, as you would have to be desperate to take a 16 around the world to get to your destination) which cross to the southside.

The Xpresso services (from Swords anyway) are actually quite good in the morning, but they last ones are far too early.

Hopefully, the opening of the Bus Gate should lead to all buses crossing the city.

Well Dublin Bus did try to introduce the 141 linking Swords with Rathmines via the Old Swords Road and not serving the Airport but alas that didn't happen after the DoT said no!

You are not going to get every single route crossing the city but as long as a significantly high frequency service from each corridor does so then that should be sufficient.

The Swordsman

KC61 wrote: »

You are not going to get every single route crossing the city but as long as a significantly high frequency service from each corridor does so then that should be sufficient.

Why not? It shouldn't be a great difficulty extending any route from anywhere in the North city centre to the South city centre.

KC61

The Swordsman wrote: »

Why not? It shouldn't be a great difficulty extending any route from anywhere in the North city centre to the South city centre.

You would end up with far too many buses trying to access far too few bus stop locations in the city centre - it would be total gridlock.

gurramok

Victor wrote: »

http://www.mkmap.com/dublin

1, 3, 4/a, 5, 7/a/b/d/e, 8, 10/a, 11/a/b, 13a, 14/a, 15/a/b/e/f/x, 16/a, 19/19a, 20b (peak only), 25/a/x, 26, 37/x, 38a/b/c, 39/a/b/c/x, 40a, 46a/b/c/d/e/x, 48a, 49/a/x, 51/b/d, 54a, 63, 65/b/x, 66/a/b/d/x, 67/a/x, 70a/b/x, 74/a (temporary) 76a, 78, 79/a, 83, 84/x, 90, 91, 92, 116, 121, 122, 123 (124 sub-route), 128, 140, 142, 145, 151, 172, 239, 746, 747, 748.

Now, many of these only come to the city centre, but they do cross the magical Liffey.

Dunno why you posted so many when some of them do no cross the river. 40A caught my eye, they have it wrong on that mapping site. It does not cross the river. http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/New-timetable-Route-40-a/

Perhaps if they had every bus that went near a business park to go past the river it might help matters for commuters.

Aard

@KC61
Would cross-city routes like the 16a work if it was implemented on a large scale? That way the ratio of buses to city-centre stops would be reduced. I guess the main problem with that though would be reliability.

HonalD

Have we strayed from the topic?

lucernarian

Including some of those routes is a bit much. The 14/a and the various 7s for example?? I don't think a journey starting from Parnell Square and heading southbound across the river adds to to the merit of how many routes cross the river, for suburban commuters. Including all those routes is a bit misleading to those who don't know which ones are truly cross-city or not.

Apologies for going a bit off-topic, but I feel facts should be used to make a substantive point and not merely for the purposes of pedantism.

BostonB

Crossing the river is not the same thing as a cross city service.

FlameoftheWest

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

GDP drops by 7 or 8 percent, 100,000 have lost their jobs, but the number of cars commuting to Dublin City keeps on increasing.

We are doing something fundamentally wrong here.

Yes, it is called CIE.