dog wardens rights in Ireland

ojgetsoff

I am desperately looking for some advice, I have 2 german shepherds - Jill and Zabaka - since pups one is 2 years and 1 is 8 months.
I keep them on my 1 acre garden surrounded by an 8 foot fence and a radio control fence.

2 weeks ago I got a call the dog warden had entered my property with the gardai and told me he was taking my dogs. a neighbour had complained that one of the dogs had attacked her according to the dogwarden, spoke to my neighbour. And what had happened was the gate had been left open by a friend staying at the house and one of the dogs took a run out through the gate to try and escape the shock just as this happened my neighbour was jogging by and it frightened the life out of her which it would, the dog then tried to snap at the toe of her shoe so the woman was paralysed with fear and a lorry driver came along and the dog ran back in.

I appreciate the people should be able to walk the public roads without worries of dogs and I would never keep a dog that I thought could harm another person or animal. My problem is I have been told that the dog is to be put to sleep for this incident as it is a german shepherd and a dangerous dog, but they are returning the other dog to me on thursday after the warden gets back from his holidays.
I spoke to the head if the environment section when he came back from his leave telling him if there is any steps I can take to save the dog I will do it, I've since installed electric gates and increased the power of the dog fence and committed to send the dog to behavioural correction training also after discussions with all my neighbours I am going to rehome the dog so there could never be a reoccurance. The head of the environment called me last night to say unless I sign the dog over to them for destruction they will keep it in the pound forbidding me to see it until it goes to court upon which there has never been a single case of a judge ruling in favour of the dog so it will be destroyed anyway.

This is heartbreaking and seems really unjust and unfair that this is the way the system in Ireland works, has anyone out there any experience or any suggestions how I can save my dogs life?

andreac

I dont know what the rights are, but i advise you to get a solicitor ASAP!!

I dont think they can get your dog PTS unless it goes to court but you need to act fast. Surely they would need a case against the dog, garda reports etc before anything can be done so i would advise to get onto a solicitor straight away!!

ojgetsoff

I have been waiting for a letter from the head of the environment so I can bring it to my solicitor but the dog warden told me hes wrote the letter and when I spoke to the head in person he hadnt even written it by monday 10 days later! mainly because between the 2 of them they are constantly on leave

andreac

I wouldnt be waiting for any letter, your dogs life is at stake here, get to a solicitor straight away, they willa dvise you on what to do from now on.

You could be waiting a long time for this letter, in the meantime the dog could be pts if action isnt taken.

Magenta

OP get a solicitor.

munky101

Did the dog draw blood, or mark your neighbour's shoe or clothing in any way?

seamus

Speak to the neighbour again, explain the situation and ask her to ring the warden/head of and withdraw the complaint. If it goes to court they'll then have nothing to go on.

ISDW

This is an awful situation, but really highlights the dangers of the electric collars. You say that the dog ran out of the gate quickly to escape the shock? He saw someone running past, who he obviously associated with the pain and took a nip at her. You have now put the power of the electric collars up even higher? So what happens if there is another accident and one of the dogs manages to get out again as someone is going past? With even more pain inflicted, do you think they will react more ferociously?

I'm really sorry, I obviously don't want to see any dog being put to sleep but I don't understand your reasoning on increasing the voltage if you feel this shock was part of the reason that the dog bit the neighbour.

I don't know what to advise you, it appears that you've already contacted a solicitor, but you have to wait until the warden is back from holiday? Unfortunately and I really, really am sorry about this, but a breed on the restricted breed list has run out onto a public highway and bitten a member of the public. Rightly or wrongly, I think the court will impose a pts order on your poor dog. I don't know what grounds you have to appeal if those are the facts. Sorry.

ojgetsoff

the dog didnt draw blood or damage the shoe, the dog warden and gardai took the statement and even though the neighbour doesnt seem to want it to go any further the dog warden used the statements in his report to his superior who made the decision. doesnt seem like the lady in question has any say in the matter anymore

CreedonsDogDayc

quickly get a solicitor, but shop around first to find one familiar with dogs.

Tell the solicitor that you want the dog assessed by a behaviouralist.

See if you can get in touch with the dog training department of the garda and see if they can do anything since they work with German Shepherds.

Find out where your dog is... Bruce, a staffie up north was seized and kept in awful conditions until his court case, so make sure he is being well treated.

Get onto local papers, radio (try Joe Duffy) etc and bring light on your case.

Start a facebook page and get as many people to learn about your case.


This is really really awful and Im so sorry for you. Its so frustrating when noone will listen and evaluate your case on stupid rules.

Keep in touch here and let us know if there is anything that can be done.

BeachMusic

Is the warden from the DSPCA?? If not, contact them (Rathfarnham, Dublin- 014935502) and ask for advice.

anniehoo

ojgetsoff wrote: »

the dog didnt draw blood or damage the shoe, the dog warden and gardai took the statement and even though the neighbour doesnt seem to want it to go any further the dog warden used the statements in his report to his superior who made the decision. doesnt seem like the lady in question has any say in the matter anymore

This in my book in NO WAY warrants a dog to be put to sleep. He didnt draw blood, damage the shoe and the neighbour doesnt want to take it further.Explain where is the justification in that??

This is seriously out of control and it sounds like you have a power hungry stubborn Head Dog Warden on your hands.

Why not ask in the Legal forum here OP?Id be making as much noise as possible to be honest...legal noise.

ISDW

anniehoo wrote: »

This in my book in NO WAY warrants a dog to be put to sleep. He didnt draw blood, damage the shoe and the neighbour doesnt want to take it further.Explain where is the justification in that??

This is seriously out of control and it sounds like you have a power hungry stubborn Head Dog Warden on your hands.

Why not ask in the Legal forum here OP?Id be making as much noise as possible to be honest...legal noise.

Just playing devil's advocate, but maybe the neighbour is saying one thing to the OP and another to the dog warden?

Sorry OP, the way you put it at first, I thought he had actually nipped the woman.

ojgetsoff

Ive spoken to my locAL NWSPCA they say a similar case is coming up very soon in a nearby village and to await the outcome of that trial, the dogs are being treated well ive heard through a friend of a friend who runs the pound. I have put forward the proposal of a large dogpen and even export of the dog to south africa to my sister. anything to stop this stupid system murdering my dog so the council can protect themselves from legal action in case they dont act

andreac

Sorry, but what are you waiting for?? Are you just going to leave your dog in the pound and wait for some trial to finish which could takes months??

Meanwhile your dog is locked up somewhere and you dont know how hes been treated or whats happening to him?

If i was you id get to a solicitor NOW, and get your dog sorted so hes not stuck there for months in a horrible place not knowing whats going on.

Unless you take action nothing will be done and your dog could end up wasting away if hes not being treated properly.

So please do something now and dont be waiting on some trial which might not have any influence on the outcome of your dog.

seamus

Having looked at the specific legislation there doesn't seem to be any automatic euthanisation order for dogs listed as dangerous breeds (:mad:), rather that it's simply an offence to not have the dog muzzled or on a leash in public.

If the court is satisfied that the dog is "dangerous", the court will order its destruction. A dog is usually defined as "dangerous" if it can be shown that damage or injury was caused to someone or something by the animal.

So fight it. Get a solicitor, do everything you can to convince the court that the dog is not dangerous and did not actually inflict any injury. Talk to your neighbour and get her summoned as a witness if she's willing to testify that she was simply startled by the dog and has a fear of dogs, but she was never injured by the animal.

I seriously doubt that the judge rules in favour of the dog warden every single time. The warden is probably saying that to save himself the hassle of filling out the paperwork and going to court.

The warden can only seize your animal in order to ascertain whether an offence has been committed - in this case the offence of not having the animal under proper control. Having the dog declared "dangerous" requires the warden to go to court and make his case before a judge. The warden absolutely cannot put your dog down without going to court.

So I would call down there and talk to him face-to-face to resolve this before it gets to court. He spends all day every day handling dogs owned by idiots and scumbags who've been trained to attack people, so if you can demonstrate to him that you're not one of these people and your dog isn't dangerous, he may be willing to listen to reason and only go for the standard on-the-spot fine for not having your dog under proper control.

Under no circumstances should you sign the dog over to anyone.

You might even get lucky with the people who work in the pound - having looked after your dog, they may also be willing to plead on the dog's behalf that he's not aggressive or dangerous.

ojgetsoff

the reason Im waiting is I get my other dog back tomorrow - the one they seized even though he never left my garden and I dont want to do anything to jeopardise getting him back, once I have him I will start action but the way this is being handled and the fact the dogs seem to have no rights at all makes me very cautious to do a thing until one of my dogs is safe at home

andreac

Have you def got the full and right story?

This is where you need a solicitor to help you out with your rights and fight for you.


Just edited my reply as my info was wrong.

seamus

andreac wrote: »

They had no right to come into your garden to seize the other dog as that is trespassing and stealing imo.

The law provides the dog warden the right to enter any property (except your house) in order to seize a dog. If they need to enter someone's home, they can request the assistance of the Gardai who have a legal right to enter to seize the animal under specific circumstances.

The dog warden has done what he is perfectly entitled to do according to the law. The reason the second dog is being returned is because the warden is satisfied no offence has been committed in relation to that second animal.

andreac

seamus wrote: »

The law provides the dog warden the right to enter any property (except your house) in order to seize a dog. If they need to enter someone's home, they can request the assistance of the Gardai who have a legal right to enter to seize the animal under specific circumstances.

The dog warden has done what he is perfectly entitled to do according to the law. The reason the second dog is being returned is because the warden is satisfied no offence has been committed in relation to that second animal.

Oh right ok, thanks for letting me know:)

seamus

Yes, it's unfortunate and I'd no doubt feel like my home had been violated if the same happened to me, but some unsavoury powers are necessary if state authorities are to be effective.

anniehoo

OP please keep us updated on what happens. Id be very very surprised if your other dog was PTS. Is there anyway you could get a written statement from the nieghbour saying she wants no further action taken and that she wasnt seriously hurt. No judge in its right mind with no photographic evidence of injury or written statement from a witness is going to be that harsh.

Also if finance is a problem for a solicitor,what about the "No win no fee" types?Not sure how good they are but might be an option.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Sorry I know this won't go down well here but had I been the neighbour I would be backing the dog warden all the way. The behaviour of your dog seems to be totally unacceptable. I love dogs but I also see the view other people can have of them. My dogs NEVER leave my property unless on a lead ( or when running in our neighbouring fields where I have permission and they are secure) and I will not tolerate them even pulling towards people on the street.

anniehoo

Cole Magnificent Beachcomber wrote: »

Sorry I know this won't go down well here but had I been the neighbour I would be backing the dog warden all the way. The behaviour of your dog seems to be totally unacceptable..

Well you're right there Cole Magnificent Beachcomber it hasnt gone down well...with me anyway.Are you seriously telling me that any animal who even has the slightest bit of aggression (and it sounds like it was a warning nip in this case) should automatically be destroyed?? No animal or pet for that matter is perfect despite what their owners might say and every animal has the capacity for aggressive behaviour...every animal!! And of course itd be scary for anyone seeing a GSD coming for them.The neighbour sounds like he got over the fright and came to some sense.

In this case, it sounds like it was no where near a full on vicious assault. Yes, the dog had access to an open gate (not the OPs fault by the sounds of it) and he was not in control of his animal. Believe me if a GSD decided to fully attack the neighbour there'd be very little left of his leg. As already stated...the dog didnt even dent the shoe for gods sake. :rolleyes:It is hardly on the same scale as a violent assault with skin stitches and puncture wounds now is it?

Yes, its still aggression but on a very minor scale. To me it sounds like the dog was being territorial and this was his warning signal. Not his fault that the gate was open now was it? Im not excusing any kind of bad behaviour ok, but seriously put it in perspective will you.

Discodog

If I were you I would do the following:

Immediately contact a solicitor. It does not matter at this stage if they are "dog friendly". Get them to phone the Council to advise that they are acting for you & seeking the return of the dog. Also get him/her to phone the dog warden & say the same thing. Any contact with the Council should be at senior level. You want them to wonder if this is going to be worth the hassle. The purpose of this is to warn them that you have taken legal advice & that they may be held responsible for their actions. The calls must be followed up with immediate hand delivered (with proof of delivery signatures) letters.

Next seek a Court Injunction for the dog to be released to your care. Make it clear that you will offer a substantial surety (bail) - bearing in mind that you wont need to pay it into Court I would suggest €5000. State that you need custody of the dog to a allow a full & thorough behavioural assessment - think of it as a social/probation report prior to sentencing. The Council may back down at this stage.

Get a letter from a qualified behaviourist to confirm that they will be able to assess the dog & provide a report for the Court. You may need to get the behaviourist to attend the hearing. The letter should state that it is impossible to assess the behaviour of the dog whilst it is in the Pound. As a backup get a letter from a rescue or boarding kennel confirming that they are prepared to hold the dog to allow for the assessment.

Throughout all of this be at pains to point out that YOU are the offender & not the dog. Make it clear that all of this is your fault & that the dog should not be labelled as dangerous because of your mistakes.

As another backup contact the GSD rescue in the UK & ask if they could take the dog. Make it clear that you will cover all the expenses & make a very generous donation. Get a letter from the rescue confirming that they will take the dog. Offer the Court an undertaking that the dog will be "out of the state" within 48 hours of Judgement.

Remember that even the most mild mannered dog can change when imprisoned in a Pound. The Pound keeper/manager will be treating the dog as if it is dangerous so it may not be getting any real human contact.

I would beg/bribe your neighbour to swear an affidavit that in their opinion the dog was not attacking or being dangerous. Make it clear to the Court that you are prepared to make a substantial donation to charity if they punish you & not the dog.

Post regular updates & feel free to PM me.

greensleep

wow discodog if my dogs ever get into trouble I will be in touch with you for advice.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

anniehoo wrote: »

Im not excusing any kind of bad behaviour...

But that's exactly what you are doing. As for perspective - maybe you should consider how many people feel about dogs. I know there are people terrified of dogs and I appreciate their fears. Perhaps you should do likewise - if only for a moment to get some perspective. Plus, I wonder how the other side of this particular story would sound!

Hagar

Do you have a beware of the dog sign on the gate?

Are there any independent witnesses to the alleged attack?

Is there any physical evidence that an attack took place?

Did your neighbour try to pet the dog and provoked a purely defensive reaction?

Is there any previous public record of your dog being outside without supervision?

For all anybody knows the whole thing could be a fabrication of a discontented neighbour.

Can anybody prove that the gate was left open?

Maybe the neighbour opened the gate herself for some unknown reason and tresspassed on your property. Could the dog have been defending your property from an unwanted intruder?



Maybe defending your dog is a weak course of action, it almost admits guilt and begs mercy.

Why not take the hard line and go after the neighbour as the guilty party?

At the very least it should raise a legal reasonable doubt regarding the charge brought against your dog.

It's a radical course of action that will cause a rift with your neighbour but things will never be the same anyway if your dog gets put down so I wouldn't worry about any bad blood.

Throughout all of this be at pains to point out that YOU are the offender & not the dog

I'd be wary of this option as it could impact on your suitability, by your own admission, to keep the second dog if this goes badly wrong.

As many others have said, get professional legal help.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Hagar wrote: »

Do you have a beware of the dog sign on the gate?...

...Did your neighbour try to pet the dog and provoked a purely defensive reaction?...

...For all anybody knows the whole thing could be a fabrication of a discontented neighbour...

Can anybody prove that the gate was left open?

Maybe the neighbour opened the gate herself for some unknown reason and tresspassed on your property...

...Why not take the hard line and go after the neighbour as the guilty party?...

Are you for real? I've shown this thread to some colleagues here and we are all mystified as to how anybody could (given the facts as presented by the OP himself) take this stance.

A beware of the dog sign has no legal standing. It is purely an alert to anybody entering the premises and can, indeed, be taken as an admission that the dog may be vicious.

A fabrication??? The neighbour has a lorry driver as a witness.

Yes, the neighbour went and opened the gate herself!!! (Read the thread. The OP states a friend left the gate open)

The neighbour was trespassing??? While out jogging?

Go after the neighbour as a guilty party? Oh come on!

Look, this is getting beyond reasonable discussion. Let the OP take whatever action he wants and let's see how it turns out. Barrackroom lawyers will not solve this one!

I'm out of here!

Hagar

Our legal system is adversarial. You take a stance opposite to the other party and let the courts decide.

Saying a friend left the gate open is an assumption the part of the OP. If the OP knew for a fact that the gate had been left open wouldn't he have closed it? Obvious assumption, any decent solicitor will claim it was shut and along with a warning sign, an 8ft fence coupled with an electried fence claim all reasonable precautions to protect the public had been taken.

The lorry driver "came along", nobody said he saw anything. He may not have seen exactly what happened just intervened after hearing a shout or bark and accepted the neighbour's view on what happened.

If the OP wants to keep his dog he may have to play hardball. Attack is the best form of defence, no pun intended I assure you.

anniehoo

Cole Magnificent Beachcomber wrote: »

But that's exactly what you are doing

.
I havent excused its behaviour at all.It was aggressive yes ive said that, but i asked you to put it in perspective. You know the meaning of this word? Weighing up a situation in relation to other situations.This was not a full on attack by the dog by any means. You might as well say that a slap on the hand is the same as murder at the rate you're going.

wrote:

As for perspective - maybe you should consider how many people feel about dogs. I know there are people terrified of dogs and I appreciate their fears. Perhaps you should do likewise - if only for a moment to get some perspective!

I dont doubt for one minute that plenty of people are terrified of dogs. I owned a beautiful dog for 14 years and encountered all sorts of people who either loved her or loathed her during her lifetime. I was always sympathetic when someone got a fright if she barked or became slightly uneasy when she was off lead. I dont rub peoples fears in their face and im sure the neighbour got an awful fright at the time.

But, the severity of the situation is being blown out of all proportion in my opinion. A non-injurious mistake by the dog, one time, does not equate to the animal losing its life in my book.