Continuation of Discussion re unpaid film from Auditions thread

inisboffin

Continued from thread in Auditions (went off topic, sorry mods)

Originally Posted by inisboffin
Thanks for responding Fair play for considering that...I recommend then that you mention it in your call that a set amount (however small) will be given to cast and crew, should the project win. You don't have to quote the amount on here, but you should let actors know this before you shoot. If not it is yet another *nebulous* factor imo!
You do mention 'on screen' talent. Just curious as to whether any key crew are being paid?

The director mentioned that he/she is a first time director. I humbly suggest then that unless the actor is a first time actor, they may have more experience than the director, and are not *guaranteed* a 'high quality' piece for their CV (not saying you won't make one! Just there is no guarantee, and less so with a non-experienced director).

A non contract shoot should always provide a copy of the completed film (it costs about 3 quid)...

To be honest, saying you will provide food and drinks 'free of charge' is quite insulting. Food is a NECESSITY on any shoot, not some kind of payment.
There is a movement in Equity and among many other groups to change this culture of 'No-pay' 'work' for actors.
Also an absolute basic should be transport costs, and accommodation, if overnight.
It's crazy to think that an actor should be *out of pocket* for working, yet many do it, and that's half the issue (another story, but often you do get what you pay for!!).

Both professional actors and amateur actors, as well as those in between, check the boards. Perhaps first time directors should advertise for first time actors etc?

Plenty of bad habits can be learned by a new actor on a novice set.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but if it were any other profession, (some having trained sometimes for 4 or 5 years at your skill, not to mention experience), this situation would not be the norm.


Dragula003 wrote

As much as i do appreciate your reply, and yes should the production win of course the actors would be compensated,HOWEVER i dont appreciate you saying that because i am a first time director, i will not produce a top quality piece, i am currently working my ass off to get the best possible cast, i have the best crew i could ask for, who are behind me 100% if my piece was noit considered to be good, it would not have gone into production. simple as. Now I AM a first time director but im certainly not new to this, i have worked on many shoots before, ive done every other job there is to do, i am well experienced. and perfectly capable. thank you."
Now i do not want to get into a boards debate, i have taken the positive points out of your posts, i.e what i should have posted. and am happy to leave it at that, and Andrea, Fair play to ya!

So if any Actors Novice or experienced are willing to help out, i will consider all.

Thank you

Inisboffin

Dragula003 - the end of your post really says it all - you are looking for people to help out...
I noticed that you have taken my advice and now mention on other websites that actors will receive a share of the prize money if you win - thank you for that.
What I found offensive (and it was one of the crew that posted it, not you) is the suggestion that catering for cast is provided as payment, I honestly cannot believe people still say that. It was the 'straw that broke the camel's back' with the post to be honest.

NO actor is guaranteed a quality piece of work until it is completely shot, edited and printed. We have all seen bad work by good people.
When directors are looking for actors to give their time, for no payment, I know the trend (it is taught by friends of mine who LECTURE in film schools for example!) is to make your project desireable to the actor.
But false, uncertain or downright odd promises stick in my throat, as someone who has been in the biz for a while...

You said "HOWEVER i dont appreciate you saying that because i am a first time director, i will not produce a top quality piece"

If you read my quote, I did NOT say you wouldn't make a 'quality piece', all I said is that there will be no guarantee see below:

"The director mentioned that he/she is a first time director. I humbly suggest then that unless the actor is a first time actor, they may have more experience than the director, and are not *guaranteed* a 'high quality' piece for their CV (not saying you won't make one! Just there is no guarantee, and less so with a non-experienced director)."

Actors take chances with scripts all the time, but there is a paycheck involved.
The current trend with newer filmmakers in advertisements for 'jobs', is almost that they will be doing the actors a favour! My point was not that you are or aren't a competent director (and I apologise if you personally took offense at that) but that possibly the actor you choose would have more experience on a set than you, and wouldn't *necessarily* be getting any new experience.
I have seen firsthand, from both sides of the camera, where a younger actor came away from a shoot, worse off, both financially and artistically, from the experience.
You mention 'working your ass off to get the best possible cast'..well, unfortunately it is pretty much a fact, that unless you have actor close friends, the best possible cast will be a paid one.
Many directors DO have additional pub quizzes, cake sales, *whatever* in order to raise just that little bit more cash, just to give the cast AND crew a token, as it is important to them.
My friend who's a busker was out busking all last week and ALL the income went to a stipend for a camera op and 2 actors for a music video. One of the actors is a relative, but he insisted on paying them (albeit less than scale) as they are doing a JOB.

There is really no such thing as 'no budget'. Everything is donated, borrowed, or in many cases, fundraised. People take loans out to make films, I have!

Actors love to act, we all know that, and often they do things for less financial reward for that reason, sometimes well into their professional career. It seems to be slightly different for crew. A bunch of freebie 'training' and working your way up, and after that, you would be hard pushed to get many doing freebies unless it is their own work.
See the difference between trying to get a volunteer sound person vs a volunteer actor for a short, both with 10 years experience..

I guess I find it more palatable if there is an honest 'looking for help with a film' - as help IS what you are looking for if you want people to volunteer their time.... if people put details such as "may suit student or beginning actor looking to build a showreel" ...and even then they are not *guaranteed* anything..do you see what I am saying?

Again, sorry you misread what I said, and took it as me doubting your credibility, I wasn't, but I hope you take my points (one of which you have - re token payment) about how to best advertise for unpaid films, and get the highest quality response.

Thank you!

Dragula003

Again, Thank you for your insight to the industry, I do agree with what you are saying, i agree with all of it, i do understand that alot of people do certain things to fundraise for their film etc, but when it is a two week turnover from my script being chosen to shooting day it is not exactly easy to pull money out of fundraisers, but i do take that point into consideration for future.

Regarding actors, i dont expect the highest of talent to reply to my ad, thankfully i have had an overwhelming response from people who are looking to put anything on their showreels many who have great experience too, i guess i might just be lucky in that response.

Regarding My PA, She didnt mean to insult, she just meant that Actors will recieve the regular treatment that they deserve, considering they are helping us out big time. they will be catered for and looked after in the highest regard. im sorry you found that offensive but i think it may have been a bad selection of words from thought to screen.

Perhaps i should change how i advertised for help, but i am quite stuck for time, i needed to get the posts out as quick as possible, as alot has to be done in the 2 weeks i was given tto bring this project from script to screen, as well as everything else in college and outside of college.

Hope this clears up any problems you may have had.
J*

inisboffin

Dragula003 wrote: »

Again, Thank you for your insight to the industry, I do agree with what you are saying, i agree with all of it, i do understand that alot of people do certain things to fundraise for their film etc, but when it is a two week turnover from my script being chosen to shooting day it is not exactly easy to pull money out of fundraisers, but i do take that point into consideration for future.

Regarding actors, i dont expect the highest of talent to reply to my ad, thankfully i have had an overwhelming response from people who are looking to put anything on their showreels many who have great experience too, i guess i might just be lucky in that response.

Regarding My PA, She didnt mean to insult, she just meant that Actors will recieve the regular treatment that they deserve, considering they are helping us out big time. they will be catered for and looked after in the highest regard. im sorry you found that offensive but i think it may have been a bad selection of words from thought to screen.

Perhaps i should change how i advertised for help, but i am quite stuck for time, i needed to get the posts out as quick as possible, as alot has to be done in the 2 weeks i was given tto bring this project from script to screen, as well as everything else in college and outside of college.

Hope this clears up any problems you may have had.
J*

Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to post. And, yes, it does clear a bit up when you mention your turnaround time. I just like to remind people that there are other ways to fundraise, and that actors should always be calculated when figuring essential budget. I just see posts *so often* where I feel the actors are the last consideration, and every so often it tips me over the edge.

I have worked both sides of the camera, been in casting depts, etc , and really still believe in directness, honesty and good communication. The fact that you have taken the time to address these concerns speaks to your integrity as a director, imo. Thank you for mentioning the catering post and I accept that sometimes it can come out wrong.
I just hope our dialogue can help other folks see how people can disagree yet figure it out, and how respect and courtesy is paramount in this industry.

I wish you all the best with your shoot, and look forward to seeing your winning film!

pikachucheeks

Dragula003 wrote: »

Regarding My PA, She didnt mean to insult, she just meant that Actors will recieve the regular treatment that they deserve, considering they are helping us out big time. they will be catered for and looked after in the highest regard.

Agreed.

I didn't mean to suggest in any way that providing food or drinks would be a sort of payment.
The team recognises that talent should be looked after and while we cannot offer them payment for their services, we can look their meals and try to accommodate their needs, as best we can.