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Shooting Procedure Question
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24-02-2010 12:45pm#1I recently had an awkward situation with some hunters. I was in my garden and heard shotguns being fired in the field just below my garden (which I also own). I got a bit of a shock and went to investigate. I saw two men with shotguns and dogs shooting birds.
I went down to them and pointed out they were shooting on private land without my permission. I also pointed out that they were firing shotguns very close to my house, in the direction of my garden, without my permission and without warning me first (this was really what had given me the shock).
One man walked away and the other, to be fair, pointed the shotgun away from me. He admitted that he should have asked permission and should have warned me first before shooting so close to my house. He also acknowledged that he didn't have permission from the owner of the fields around my house either (a separate farmer). He offered me his ID card from the local gun club and it seemed legit.
I was very firm with him as I had got quite a fright at first. I wasn't rude, but I made it clear he should not come back shooting without first getting permission from me and my neighbouring farmer. I left it at that.
I have 2 questions:
Q1 - Did I overreact? I got quite a shock at someone shooting a shotgun so close to my house without warning me first. What if there had been kids around? There are trees and bushes all around the garden and field and it would be very hard to see someone.
Q2 - I want to apply for a shotgun licence myself now (for use on my own land). Will my "disagreement" with two local gun club members cause me a problem? I hope not.0
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I recently had an awkward situation with some hunters. I was in my garden and heard shotguns being fired in the field just below my garden (which I also own). I got a bit of a shock and went to investigate. I saw two men with shotguns and dogs shooting birds.
I went down to them and pointed out they were shooting on private land without my permission. I also pointed out that they were firing shotguns very close to my house, in the direction of my garden, without my permission and without warning me first (this was really what had given me the shock).
One man walked away and the other, to be fair, pointed the shotgun away from me. He admitted that he should have asked permission and should have warned me first before shooting so close to my house. He also acknowledged that he didn't have permission from the owner of the fields around my house either (a separate farmer). He offered me his ID card from the local gun club and it seemed legit.
I was very firm with him as I had got quite a fright at first. I wasn't rude, but I made it clear he should not come back shooting without first getting permission from me and my neighbouring farmer. I left it at that.
I have 2 questions:
Q1 - Did I overreact? I got quite a shock at someone shooting a shotgun so close to my house without warning me first. What if there had been kids around? There are trees and bushes all around the garden and field and it would be very hard to see someone.
Q2 - I want to apply for a shotgun licence myself now (for use on my own land). Will my "disagreement" with two local gun club members cause me a problem? I hope not.
To 1: Absolutely not. What they did was wrong and being stern about it is perfectly appropriate.
To 2: I should doubt it very much. You were in the right and I don't imagine the gun club will look favourably on their members trespassing with their firearms and then producing the club's membership card in explanation. If you're interested in reared bird shooting and helping out with the club, you should look into joining. In fact, the run-in with the two guys gives you an opening, as you can say that's how you found out about the club and would like to join. It also allows you to show a good face to the club and absolution of any perceived responsibility of theirs, while still being privately stern with the individuals concerned.0 -
You were dead right to confront them,after all its your property and these guys were trespassing with firearms which is an offence.
also if they were shooting close to your house it would cause you some disturbance.
if they were not abusive to you then you need to take it no further than that.
they might come back and ask you or the neighbour for permission,if they do its your chance to ask about club membership.
no harm done and thats the most important thing.0 -
Firstly I'd say that you done the right thing by approaching these lads yourself!
Its is generally better to have a word than to have a go! Too many people will jump straight on to the high horse and involve the garda from the start.
All too often people over react to these situation!!
A firm word is total acceptable! and TBH you seem to have gotten a good response from these to gentlemen that entered your property with out permission!
You should now use this incident as an ice breaker with your local gun club!
It might not get you in but it will introduce you to the club!
every cloud has a silver lining!!
In terms of shooting shot- i have often been rain upon with lead shot and suffer no ill effects but its still very frightening and upsetting for the inexperienced lay-man to be subjected to such an experience, especially when you are overly concerned about you children safety!
TBH I say that you'd have more of a chance being hit with lighting while writing down the winning lotto numbers than being hurt with shot!
The shot has a poor cross sectional density and its ballistic trajectory suffers greatly. Also the individual balls of shot weigh so little that soon reach terminal velocity and fall harmlessly to earth
If shots were fired from a shotgun into the air at the best angle for maximum range the following might be found:
12 ga slug round 1450yards cal .645
16 ga " " 1350 cal .610
20 ga " " 1200y cal .545
410 " " 850yards cal .38
unsure about
00 buck .34cal 740yards
0 buck .32cal 700
#1 shot .16cal 350yards
#2 shot .15 330
#4 shot .13cal 280yards
#6 shot .11cal 240yards
#8 shot .09cal 198yards
#12 shot .05cal 110yard- this is .22lr rat shot
How much energy these would have when hitting the ground I dont know but i have been hit with #6 at 200 yards and felt nothing!!
Regards Ivanthebowhunter0 -
What where they shooting?you mention "birds".However the season has been closed these last 25 days.So technically they were comitting an offence if it was game they were shooting.Which is an advantage to you if there is any problems,[which there shouldnt be after this] if you apply for your shotgun cert,and as a landownerASFIK,you dont really need another landowners permission to shoot.
Yes you were right to confront them too."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Thanks for all the replies. Good to know you don't think I was over-reacting. I have no intentions of getting the Gardai involved as I am viewing it as a misunderstanding that is now sorted out.
My own property around my house is only about 5 acres. The farmer who owns the land around me has an additional 55 acres. I only want to shoot on my own land.
Will I need a letter from anyone, or is my 5 acres enough? If not, will a letter from the farmer next door be enough? I'm talking about controlling rats, rabbits, crows, etc on my own land. I don't plan on going hunting anywhere else to be honest.0 -
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Back in bygone days when I first got the shotgun i needed permission from a couple of farmers and around 40 acres?? my dad had 4 acres and that wasnt enough.
BTW and on a different Note (not meaning to go off thread)
I have had a lot on this lately as we are getting a lot of non club members/people without permission shooting on land they shouldnt be.
I note the mention of trespass, trespass is a civil matter. The gaurds hate getting involved in it. And when they do they tend to look at the idea of trespassing with intent to commit a crime I have yet to find this so called armed tresspass on any of the statute books in Ireland. Even though we use it a lot including me. For proving trespass you must prove intent, they intentionally entered the property. How do they intentionaly enter the property, by climbing over or under an obstacle (physical barrier and it must be clearly marked or clear to a layman that it is private) Hence the importance of having clearly defined club lands etc or as the case maybe no shooting signs.
I am not condoning there actions at all so dont think I am (I have had awful hassel this year) and in relation to shot travelling well, I have a rule of 100m from a house shooting away from the house and in the field with permission.
I have heard guys saying you shouldnt shoot within 350 meters of a house because it will disturb the occupants. Now there is a guy who doesnt shoot or even walk/work in the country. There are very little places that you will find fields that dont have houses within 350 meters.
Its about knowing your neighbours, and knowing where you can and cant shoot.0 -
I don't think we have the crime of armed trespass cavan, but mostly because it's redundant - there are more serious crimes you can be charged with from the same set of circumstances. For example, if the shooter that Tester46 was talking to had not turned the shotgun away, but left it pointing towards Tester, or if he'd even acted aggressively while holding it, then that's assault under the law, and the penalties for that are pretty substantial. The law doesn't distinguish between loaded firearms, unloaded firearms or replica firearms either, if Tester believed he was having a real shotgun pointed at him, regardless of what was actually being pointed at him, then the law treats the case as though it were a real and loaded firearm, and the courts would look on that as a very serious act with consequently more serious penalties than for (for example) slapping someone with your hand.
Happily, in this case the shooters showed a little cop-on, even if a bit late, and Tester was open to a common sense resolution, so it's the best possible outcome we've seen here. It could have been far more unpleasant.0 -
My own property around my house is only about 5 acres. The farmer who owns the land around me has an additional 55 acres. I only want to shoot on my own land.
Will I need a letter from anyone, or is my 5 acres enough? If not, will a letter from the farmer next door be enough? I'm talking about controlling rats, rabbits, crows, etc on my own land. I don't plan on going hunting anywhere else to be honest.
[/QUOTE] ASFIK,there is no written in Irish law what the minimum acerage is for paticular types of firearms to be used.The garda guidelines suggest that they have to take into account the saftey aspect of using a firearm in a paticular area.Again very vaugely worded and open to interpertation.So it proably wouldnt hurt in your case to get your neighbours permission as well.61 acres should be plenty for a shotgun."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Thanks for all the replies. Good to know you don't think I was over-reacting. I have no intentions of getting the Gardai involved as I am viewing it as a misunderstanding that is now sorted out.
My own property around my house is only about 5 acres. The farmer who owns the land around me has an additional 55 acres. I only want to shoot on my own land.
Will I need a letter from anyone, or is my 5 acres enough? If not, will a letter from the farmer next door be enough? I'm talking about controlling rats, rabbits, crows, etc on my own land. I don't plan on going hunting anywhere else to be honest.
if i was a cop looking at this as a application i would recommend storm and pied piper.how much vermin can you have on 5 acres.0 -
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if i was a cop looking at this as a application i would recommend storm and pied piper.how much vermin can you have on 5 acres.
with that approach we could do away with guns for nealy all vermin :rolleyes:
if the op had poultry etc the place could be moving with rats, which would be a good reason to get a gun, although i would say getting permission for more land would help0 -
when was the last time any one shot a rat , i would use a bucket of storm a winter and maybe just maybe shoot one or two.
unless the pointers are tripping on the stuff some thing is eating it.0 -
Lucky your dogs are still alive if they are eating it:eek::eek:.
Almost lost our Jack Russel because of that stuff."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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when was the last time any one shot a rat , i would use a bucket of storm a winter and maybe just maybe shoot one or two.
unless the pointers are tripping on the stuff some thing is eating it.
that suits you, but maybe other people would get enjoyment from going out and shooting a few rats crows etc0 -
cavan shooter wrote: »I note the mention of trespass, trespass is a civil matter. The gaurds hate getting involved in it. And when they do they tend to look at the idea of trespassing with intent to commit a crime I have yet to find this so called armed tresspass on any of the statute books in Ireland.
There's a specific offense in the Wildlife Act which would cover what the OP saw:- Any person who not being the owner or occupier of land—
- with a firearm or with a device, instrument or missile mentioned in section 72 (7) of this Act hunts a wild bird or wild animal on the land or moves or drives such a bird or such an animal off the land in order so to hunt it,
- enters on the land for the purpose of so hunting wild birds or wild animals,
- carries on the land—
- any firearm, or
- any net, or other weapon, instrument or device capable of being used for hunting a wild bird or a wild animal,
- shoots over or into the land,
- Where a person who is neither the owner nor the occupier of land carries on the land a firearm, other weapon or device (or a part thereof) described in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section, any of the following persons may demand of him (and take when given) his name and address, namely:
- the owner or occupier of the land or a person authorised by him to exercise on his behalf the powers exercisable by such owner or occupier under this section,
- a person who is entitled to enjoy sporting rights over the land or some other person so authorised by him to exercise on his behalf the powers exercisable by him under this section,
(bb) an authorised person or a member of the Garda Síochána, - the holder, or a person deemed pursuant to section 29 (5) of this Act to be the holder, of a licence granted under that section;
(2A) An authorised person or a member of the Garda Síochána in exercising a power under subsection (2) of this section may size any firearm, other weapon or device or part thereof. - A person who refuses or who fails to give his correct name and address on a demand therefor being duly made pursuant to this section or who on such demand gives a name and address which is false or misleading shall be guilty of an offence.
- Summary proceedings for an offence under this section may be prosecuted by—
- a person who at the time at which the offence is alleged to have been committed (in this subsection referred to as the relevant time) is the owner or is in occupation of the land in relation to which the offence is alleged (in this subsection referred to as the relevant land),
- any individual who as regards the relevant land is at the relevant time entitled to enjoy sporting rights over such land.
- and in the name of the person who at the relevant time is the secretary of a recognised body which at such time is entitled to enjoy sporting rights over the relevant land.
- prior to the relevant time a notice stating that sporting rights specified in the notice over land so specified have been reserved for the body is published in a newspaper circulating in the area in which the relevant land is situate, and
- the land so specified comprises or includes the relevant land.
- The Minister may by regulations declare any association, club, society or other body of persons which has for or amongst its objects the conservation of game to be a recognised body for the purposes of this section, and any body to which regulations under this subsection for the time being relate is in this section referred to as a recognised body.
- Subject to compliance with the requirements of the proviso to subsection (4) of this section, a notice published for the purposes of section 15 of the Game Preservation Act, 1930 (repealed by this Act), shall be regarded as having been published for the purposes of this Act.
- In any proceedings for an offence under this section it shall not be necessary for the prosecutor to prove that, at the time of the offence, a defendant—
- was on the land without lawful authority, or
- was not the owner or occupier of the land,
- In this section "game" means any exempted wild mammal or any protected wild bird which is of a species specified in an order under section 24 of this Act.
(I've merged in the amendments from the 2000 Act, but there may be further amendments I don't know about.)
As you can see, there's a pretty wide scope for prosecuting people who turn up on your land without permission. Subsection 7 is pretty scary TBH, and it's why I would be very wary going shooting on someone's land without written permission.0 - Any person who not being the owner or occupier of land—
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I recently had an awkward situation with some hunters. I was in my garden and heard shotguns being fired in the field just below my garden (which I also own). I got a bit of a shock and went to investigate. I saw two men with shotguns and dogs shooting birds.
I went down to them and pointed out they were shooting on private land without my permission. I also pointed out that they were firing shotguns very close to my house, in the direction of my garden, without my permission and without warning me first (this was really what had given me the shock).
One man walked away and the other, to be fair, pointed the shotgun away from me. He admitted that he should have asked permission and should have warned me first before shooting so close to my house. He also acknowledged that he didn't have permission from the owner of the fields around my house either (a separate farmer). He offered me his ID card from the local gun club and it seemed legit.
I was very firm with him as I had got quite a fright at first. I wasn't rude, but I made it clear he should not come back shooting without first getting permission from me and my neighbouring farmer. I left it at that.
I have 2 questions:
Q1 - Did I overreact? I got quite a shock at someone shooting a shotgun so close to my house without warning me first. What if there had been kids around? There are trees and bushes all around the garden and field and it would be very hard to see someone.
Q2 - I want to apply for a shotgun licence myself now (for use on my own land). Will my "disagreement" with two local gun club members cause me a problem? I hope not.
how close to your house were the shots fired exactly ?.
did you see a firearm discharged in your direction ? .very important did lead land near or hit you. ?
did you have any signs up not to enter your 5 acres ? .
our club has 1,000s of acres of hunting but not one on paper.were in rural ireland not D1 .well i am anyway thank F0 -
Thought storm was only for the "anti" brigade.
Even a rat deserves a quick painless end.0 -
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OP, it's nice to see there's still a bit of common sense about the place. You could have gone bananas, be very irrational and god knows got an ared Garda unit tearing up to your place if you mentioned firearms and incident in the one sentence.
What you've achieved now is that you're getting word out with the local club that you don't like shooting around your place without being asked ( do I make a mistake if I think you would be inclined to grant permission when asked ? ) while still being a reasonable sort of a man about it all.0
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