Dublin Docklands Rail Station

Son of Stupido

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

DWCommuter

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

Effectively it was built to aid traffic from the Dunboyne/Pace line when it opens. However it was compromised by CIEs involvement with the commercial development of Spencer Dock. Therefore, its in the wrong place and its integration with the luas is extremely poor considering the area was a brownfield site. It would appear that CIE forged ahead with building commercial developments on the site without any due condideration for how it could be used effectively for rail. Add to that the complete lack of coordination with the RPA and the whole thing is laughable.

BostonB

The docklands train always seems to be half empty even at peak. Unless you work beside it, its not really useful for anywhere else. If they put some secure bicycle parking near it, it might help. I get it sometime when I don't feel like being a sardine on the maynooth train. But its a 30 min walk to work from the station for me.

For a while I considered getting a foldup bike and using that station. But in the time it takes me to do that, I'd have cycled in from D.15 anyway on a regular bike. Or driven.

Carawaystick

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

It *is* in the city centre. Martin Cullen said so when it opened.
Not that he knew that the statement was untrue, it could have been an "honest mistake"

There's a dublin bikes stand at the north side of Seán O'Casey bridge, if there was one near where you work then that'd cut some time off.

BostonB

Haven't done it too often, but anytime I've passed it in the morning that Dublin Bike stand is empty.

KC61

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

Docklands Station is now planned to be a permanent fixture and will not "go with the new interconnector".

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

Docklands Station is now planned to be a permanent fixture and will not "go with the new interconnector".

Where could we read about that?

The original planning permission requires it to be removed and the area turned into some sort of urban park. Has a fresh PP application been lodged?

Son of Stupido

The Docklands Station has 8 trains a day to Clonsilla to connect with the maynooth train.

When the Interconnector is built trains from Maynooth will run to Pearse where they will interchange with trains using the interconector from Howth/Malahide to Kildare.

There will be no need for trains to go to Clonsilla to connect with the Maynooth train.

The station will be redundant

JHMEG

Just a minor technicality: The Docklands trains don't connect with the Maynooth trains at Clonsilla, the same as the Sligo trains don't connect with the Maynooth trains in Maynooth. If they appear to connect it is only by chance.

noelfirl

Son of Stupido wrote: »

The station will be redundant

AIUI trains from Pace (and maybe eventually Navan) will be directed to Docklands.

KC61

In 2007 and early 2008 there was a huge spat between the Chairman of CIE and the RPA when out of the blue CIE announced plans to reopen Broadstone.

Eventually the Minister got involved and came down in favour of the RPA.

Here is the report from the Irish Times:

Wednesday, 6 February 2008
Dempsey derails ambitious CIÉ plan and opts for new Luas line
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey last night informed CIÉ that it will have to drop ambitious plans for a heavy rail hub at Broadstone in Dublin in favour of a Luas line under the aegis of the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), The Irish Times has established.

The key Broadstone depot - located a short distance from the quays in the northside of the city - has been the subject of what has been, in effect, a "turf war" between CIÉ and the RPA. Both agencies have wrangled over how it should be utilised in the future - at one stage CIÉ denied the other transport agency access to the site, prompting then minister Martin Cullen to make a personal intervention.

The site was earmarked for a Luas-type operation as far back as 1996 with plans to set up a new extension using the old Broadstone railway alignment, which is no longer in use.

But last summer, CIÉ submitted an alternative plan for Broadstone as a transport hub for heavy-duty rail. The blueprint was ambitious in scope.

Broadstone would become a new rail depot that would serve intercity trains from Galway along with commuter services from Maynooth, Navan and Kildare.

CIÉ said the expansion of Broadstone was vital to cater for significant expansion in rail services and huge increases in passenger numbers. It would also ease the pressure on Connolly Station.

But The Irish Times has learned that Mr Dempsey wrote to all the transport agencies yesterday informing them that he intends to allow the RPA to proceed with planning the Luas line along the agreed alignment using Broadstone.

In the letter, Mr Dempsey also mandated CIÉ to make an early application for planning permission to retain its dockland station on a permanent basis.

The dockland station was expected to be operational for 10 years but the upshot of Mr Dempsey's decision is that it will now be made permanent, and will become the station catering for commuter services from Maynooth, Navan and Kildare.

The Minister's decision was based on a study he commissioned from specialist consultants Booz Hamilton Allen (BHA) on the CIÉ plans.

Using traffic projection models, BHA concluded that a heavy-rail depot at Broadstone was not required and that a permanent dockland railway station would comfortably accommodate commuter rail services.

The CIÉ plans were predicated on projected population increases based on Central Statistics Office data.

However, BHA concluded that even with the largest projected increase in rail traffic, a heavy rail hub at Broadstone, was not required.

The Irish Times

The station will be far busier in the coming years as all services on the line to/from Pace are planned to operate to/from Docklands.

At JHMEG and Son of Stupido - this was discussed to death at the time here on Boards - if you do a search you'll find plenty on it!

Son of Stupido

I bet you will find the Navan trains using the interconnector, or connolly until electrification.

Son of Stupido

My main point in starting this thread was to ask how useful is the Docklands Station to Dublin given it will be replaced by an underground station 100m away with direct connecton to Luas.

What was planned as a temporary Station is now (if you believe some people) going to become permanent, with routes redirected to it.

Is this a good example of how a city like Dublin should be developing its public transport?

The Broadstone / CIE / RPA row is a different issue....the Docklands Station a consequence of such.

JHMEG

Planning permission is hardly guaranteed. IE have been turned down before.

Aard

The new Dublin Mayor position will have an emphasis on transport. S/he may decide that the current Docklands station isn't in keeping with optimal mobility for the city.

noelfirl

Son of Stupido wrote: »

I bet you will find the Navan trains using the interconnector, or connolly until electrification.

There is no intention of electrifying to Navan in early to medium term. Pace possibly, but not Navan.

etchyed

Son of Stupido wrote: »

I bet you will find the Navan trains using the interconnector, or connolly until electrification.

There won't be access to the interconnector from the Navan line. Even if it was hypothetically electrified (or hypothetically built for that matter) it would form part of a Maynooth/Navan - Bray/Greystones DART line.

loyatemu

etchyed wrote: »

There won't be access to the interconnector from the Navan line.

I'd be very surprised if there isn't - the lines from Fairview, Drumcondra and the Canal line all converge together right where the portal is going to be - it'd be crazy not to give them all access to the tunnel.

etchyed

loyatemu wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if there isn't - the lines from Fairview, Drumcondra and the Canal line all converge together right where the portal is going to be - it'd be crazy not to give them all access to the tunnel.

My bad, suppose that would be pretty crazy. Although I still don't think they'd ever send trains from Pace/Navan into the Interconnector, since they seem to want to keep the two DART lines entirely separate to simplify things.

KC61

loyatemu wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if there isn't - the lines from Fairview, Drumcondra and the Canal line all converge together right where the portal is going to be - it'd be crazy not to give them all access to the tunnel.

The plans as laid out specifically did not link the Interconnector with the line to Drumcondra and the Canal line.

Of course this may change....

HeritageRailway

DWCommuter wrote: »

Effectively it was built to aid traffic from the Dunboyne/Pace line when it opens. However it was compromised by CIEs involvement with the commercial development of Spencer Dock. Therefore, its in the wrong place and its integration with the luas is extremely poor considering the area was a brownfield site. It would appear that CIE forged ahead with building commercial developments on the site without any due condideration for how it could be used effectively for rail. Add to that the complete lack of coordination with the RPA and the whole thing is laughable.

This isn't the case in relation to the stations location.

The site closer to Spencer dock wasn't considered as the proposed underground DART station will require some cut and cover excavation at this location which would mean any overground station would need to be closed and relocated. There was also the matter of a Luas bridge that made said site even tighter to work with.

No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

paulm17781

HeritageRailway wrote: »

The site closer to Spencer dock wasn't considered as the proposed underground DART station will require some cut and cover excavation at this location which would mean any overground station would need to be closed and relocated. There was also the matter of a Luas bridge that made said site even tighter to work with.

And you're saying there was no way around this?

HeritageRailway wrote: »

No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

It's still a half baked job. This could have been done well, integrated and connected to the PPT / Kidare line, the way it was supposed to. Instead we got a station that people think is miles from everywhere.

DWCommuter

HeritageRailway wrote: »

This isn't the case in relation to the stations location.

The site closer to Spencer dock wasn't considered as the proposed underground DART station will require some cut and cover excavation at this location which would mean any overground station would need to be closed and relocated. There was also the matter of a Luas bridge that made said site even tighter to work with.

No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

Let me enlighten you if I may.

Everything you discuss is based on a time when the site was already compromised by development. A compromise that CIE partook in as they are shareholders in the SDDC. (Spencer Dock Development Company) The current station is sited along the canal as a few hundred metres east is the proposed site for the interconnector portal. (apparently) This is the Spencer Dock North site.

On the other side of Sheriff st bridge is the Spencer Dock South site. The development of this site was granted planning permission in 2003. (the current site of PWC and the Convention centre among others. It is in this area that the Docklands station should have been sited and perhaps integrated with the commercial development. (to keep everyone happy.) If this kind of planning had been applied then the station would have been accessible to the PPT line, integrated properly with Luas, more central and still leaving the site at Spencer Dock North free for the interconnector portal works.

It is an undeniable misuse of a railway site where commercial development was put first and public transport was clearly treated as an afterthought. There are many many developments around the world (Some of which I showed to the consultancy firm working on behalf of SDCC) that integrate both rail and office blocks to maximum effect.

It is complete and utter stupidity (once you look at the facts) to think that there are excuses for a station that is isolated, not connected to a nearby part of the rail network and badly linked to a multi million euro light rail line.

DWCommuter

paulm17781 wrote: »

And you're saying there was no way around this?



It's still a half baked job. This could have been done well, integrated and connected to the PPT / Kidare line, the way it was supposed to. Instead we got a station that people think is miles from everywhere.

In fairness Paul, I don't think people are fully up to speed on what went on in Spencer Dock. We know why the current Docklands station is where it is, but only within the confines of where prioritised commercial development forced it to be built. The sickening aspect is that it was a railway owned site and CIE are now shareholders in the development company.

BostonB

HeritageRailway wrote: »

...No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

Maybe I'm wrong but that 151 seems to have 45~60 min intervals. That doesn't seem high frequency. But maybe I'm reading the timetable wrong.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/151/

I think the problem for the docklands is it not near anything other than the docklands. Theres no real connections to go cross city from it. By connections I mean one where you don't have a significant gap in your journey. Other than the tallaght luas. Which might be useful for some. Its not like Connolly where you can step off a Maynooth train and step on to a dart, with not much of a gap, usually. The lack of connections, is reflected in the lack of passengers on the train, compared to the trains going into connolly.

schemingbohemia

read across not down!

i don't understand people not using the docklands train, after all the whinging about the calcutta express people have the option of using a lightly used train where they can connect to a frequent bus service that will bring them to the city centre or shock horror walk a bit!

paulm17781

BostonB wrote: »

I think the problem for the docklands is it not near anything other than the docklands.

Which is no further from the city than Pearse station*. This is what I mean about people thinking it's really far from everything.

*Well, maybe a little further but none of our train stations could be called central.

DWCommuter

schemingbohemia wrote: »

read across not down!

i don't understand people not using the docklands train, after all the whinging about the calcutta express people have the option of using a lightly used train where they can connect to a frequent bus service that will bring them to the city centre or shock horror walk a bit!

Trust me. If the luas was integrated with the station, then you have really good connectivity to the city centre and beyond. That walk between Docklands and Luas is a disinsentive. Once again bear in mind that it was all a brownfield site ready to do as we wanted in relation to transport. The excuses do not stack up.

The other travesty is if the interconnector doesn't go ahead. We are stuck with this disjointed and laughable solution. And herein lies another problem. We have planned on the basis of gold plated solutions, whereby none of the 9ct bits are effective enough without the 24ct centrepiece.

KC61

BostonB wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong but that 151 seems to have 45~60 min intervals. That doesn't seem high frequency. But maybe I'm reading the timetable wrong.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/151/

I think the problem for the docklands is it not near anything other than the docklands. Theres no real connections to go cross city from it. By connections I mean one where you don't have a significant gap in your journey. Other than the tallaght luas. Which might be useful for some. Its not like Connolly where you can step off a Maynooth train and step on to a dart, with not much of a gap, usually. The lack of connections, is reflected in the lack of passengers on the train, compared to the trains going into connolly.

The timetable reads across - there is a bus every 15 minutes, along with the number 90 as well.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

Which is no further from the city than Pearse station*. This is what I mean about people thinking it's really far from everything.

*Well, maybe a little further but none of our train stations could be called central.

To a degree you are right - there is a serious perception issue with this that could and should be addressed by the transport companies.

BostonB

KC61 wrote: »

The timetable reads across - there is a bus every 15 minutes, along with the number 90 as well.

Doh me.

BostonB

paulm17781 wrote: »

Which is no further from the city than Pearse station*. This is what I mean about people thinking it's really far from everything.

*Well, maybe a little further but none of our train stations could be called central.

I think it might depend on what you think of as the city. I'm generally heading southside, D2, D4, D6. But if you come into connolly you can get to tara st, pearse, grand canal. Which are all a good bit closer than the docklands to where I'm going.

Its not about being far. A 15~30 min walk is nothing, in itself, or connections of similar time. But you have to add it to the rest of your journey time door to door. I can cycle D.15 to D.4 quicker than I can get the train if I have any connections. About the same if a direct train. I cycle fairly slowly too.

When you are talking of getting the train you have to including walking to and from the station, and waiting for it. Ditto any connections.

BostonB

schemingbohemia wrote: »

read across not down!

i don't understand people not using the docklands train, after all the whinging about the calcutta express people have the option of using a lightly used train where they can connect to a frequent bus service that will bring them to the city centre or shock horror walk a bit!

Whinging? I've seen people faint on that train and not be able to fall to the ground. Thats not a small issue. Thats not my main problem with the overcrowding though. For me its, standing frozen at exposed station only to get on a train that like a tropical green house. You'd sweat less in a sauna. Then you get off the far end, back to a freezing train station to make a connection. Never mind everyone breathing in your ear. Its not just uncomfortable, its unhealthy.

Look at the Dublin Bikes. If something takes a bit of effort, but is useful then people will use it. That the Docklands train is half empty is clear indication that its not useful to the majoirty of people on that route.

KC61

BostonB wrote: »

I think it might depend on what you think of as the city. I'm generally heading southside, D2, D4, D6. But if you come into connolly you can get to tara st, pearse, grand canal. Which are all a good bit closer than the docklands to where I'm going.

Its not about being far. A 15~30 min walk is nothing, in itself, or connections of similar time. But you have to add it to the rest of your journey time door to door. I can cycle D.15 to D.4 quicker than I can get the train if I have any connections. About the same if a direct train. I cycle fairly slowly too.

When you are talking of getting the train you have to including walking to and from the station, and waiting for it. Ditto any connections.

Does the Samuel Beckett Bridge make Docklands a better option now?

paulm17781

BostonB wrote: »

Whinging?Look at the Dublin Bikes. If something takes a bit of effort, but is useful then people will use it. That the Docklands train is half empty is clear indication that its not useful to the majoirty of people on that route.

It's a 5 minute walk from Connolly!

I agree, the station is bad and should have been better but if people would rather be crushed for the sake of a 5 minute walk, they deserve it.

BostonB

KC61 wrote: »

Does the Samuel Beckett Bridge make Docklands a better option now?

Well that AND the Dublin Bikes rack near the bridge.

BostonB

paulm17781 wrote: »

It's a 5 minute walk from Connolly!

I agree, the station is bad and should have been better but if people would rather be crushed for the sake of a 5 minute walk, they deserve it.

Well you could do that, walk back get a ticket, then wait for a Dart. That more like a 15 min connection. Even if the actual walk is 5 mins. Judging on the numbers, most seem to get the direct train from Maynooth line through to Tara/Pearse/Grand Canal. I'd say most don't know the stations are only 5 mins walk apart. Everyone getting the train, is walking to and from it, so walking isn't the issue.

paulm17781

BostonB wrote: »

I'd say most don't know the stations are only 5 mins walk apart.

This is what I think the biggest problem with that station is. It suits more than just people in the IFSC but people think it's in the middle of nowhere. I walked to it by mistake last week, it's really not that far.

schemingbohemia

BostonB wrote: »

Well you could do that, walk back get a ticket, then wait for a Dart. That more like a 15 min connection. Even if the actual walk is 5 mins. Judging on the numbers, most seem to get the direct train from Maynooth line through to Tara/Pearse/Grand Canal. I'd say most don't know the stations are only 5 mins walk apart. Everyone getting the train, is walking to and from it, so walking isn't the issue.

when i used to get the train in from clonsilla (before the docklands was open) most people got off at connolly rather than pearse or tara, maybe that's changed or maybe it was just the carriage i was in or the time i was travelling at.

i think IE haven't done nearly enough to promote the docklands station, there is definitely a perception it's in the middle of nowhere when it is 5 minutes from connolly, ten to tara street and fifteen to pearse less if you use the dublin bikes.

paulm17781

schemingbohemia wrote: »

fifteen to pearse less if you use the dublin bikes.

Possibly less with the new bridge, though I've never timed it.

JHMEG

Despite not really being timed to sync with the Maynooth train I have used the Docklands train a few times, primarily to avoid the crush on the Maynooth train.

My perception of the Docklands Station is that for what was built as a temporary station it's very fancy, and as such a possible big waste of money. Secondly it's convenient for people down that end of the IFSC only. Thirdly it's not connected to any other public transport, and lastly it's in a dodgy area.

[I am still surprised at how people don't seem to realise for public transport to be successful it has to be convenient. If I have a 15 minute walk, that's not convenient and adding to my overall commute time, and that's not counting the weather]

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

Thirdly it's not connected to any other public transport,

Not quite true - the 151 and 90 buses both pass directly outside the station.

schemingbohemia

JHMEG wrote: »

Despite not really being timed to sync with the Maynooth train - It's not designed to, it's an alternative to the Maynooth train for people from Clonsilla into Docklands
My perception of the Docklands Station is that for what was built as a temporary station - not temporary now
it's very fancy, and as such a possible big waste of money. Secondly it's convenient for people down that end of the IFSC only - have you read any of the posts in response to this? . Thirdly it's not connected to any other public transport - obviously not, and lastly it's in a dodgy area - no transport for poor people?.

[I am still surprised at how people don't seem to realise for public transport to be successful it has to be convenient. If I have a 15 minute walk - so you basically want door to door public transport for everyone? how much are you prepared for your taxes to increase?, that's not convenient it is if you're not a lazy person and adding to my overall commute time, and that's not counting the weather]

you really should read other comments and understand them before posting nonsense

DWCommuter

schemingbohemia wrote: »

you really should read other comments and understand them before posting nonsense

Docklands "WAS" built "AS" a temporary station. Recent changes to that are irrelevant. JHMEG was right.

It is "ONLY" convenient for people in that part of the IFSC. Some definitions of the word convenient are "suitable for one's purpose or needs; opportune, easy to use, close by or easily accessible; handy" JHMEG was correct.

It is located in an area with a very high rate of crime, hence the regular ERU patrols on the streets. The area can rightly be referred to as "dodgy" This point has nothing to do with peoples wealth.To twist it to such a view is nonsense. JHMEG was right yet again.

Your last tirade about laziness and door to door transport was totally and absolutely uncalled for nonsense. JHMEGs post did not come across as you decided to define it. Its a matter of opinion and preference. What you are prepared to accept in terms of public transport is not necessarily what others will accept. Thats why we have whats called debate and righting off an opinion as "nonsense" without accurately explaining why it is so, is poor.

KC61

As a point though, I think it should be made clear that nowadays you can walk perfectly safely out of the station at rail level, through the apartment complex along the canal and then over the LUAS bridge onto Mayor Street.

There is no need to walk around Sherriff Street whatsoever.

BostonB

KC61 wrote: »

Not quite true - the 151 and 90 buses both pass directly outside the station.

In fairness, how useful they are, depends on your ultimate destination.

KC61

BostonB wrote: »

In fairness, how useful they are, depends on your ultimate destination.

Absolutely - but a sweeping statement was made that there was no public transport available from the station.

I am merely correcting that point.

JHMEG

Thank you DWCommuter for a reasoned post.

As regards the convenience thing: 15 minutes walk adds 50% more time to my commute. Add much more and private car comes out the winner. It's nothing to do with laziness, and all to do with conveniece.

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

Absolutely - but a sweeping statement was made that there was no public transport available from the station.

I am merely correcting that point.

That is my perception and I dare say the perception of the majority of commuters on that route.

loyatemu

its far more than 5 mins from Docklands to the Dart platforms in Connolly. I'd be suprised if you could go from getting off the train at Docklands to standing on P6 at Connolly in any less than 15 mins, and that's not accounting for any waiting time at Connolly (probably about the same to Pearse which would make more sense if you're heading southbound).

Also the DublinBikes station for the IFSC is at the O'Casey footbridge, not the Beckett Bridge and is one of the busiest stations in the city - you can't rely on getting a bike there.

L1011

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Ewhen it is 5 minutes from connolly, ten to tara street and fifteen to pearse less if you use the dublin bikes.

Except its absolutely and utterly not. At normal speed, the 'safe' route to Connolly is about 20 minutes and the "I'd still be a bit worried" is 10. There is no route that takes less than 10 minutes between the stations unless you run, simple as. Irish Rail claimed 15, I've no idea where this delusion of 5 came from.