The end of the road (are we there yet?)

pgmcpq · 21-06-2010 5:28pm

Friday: 5 miles recovery: 9:12m/m, HR a/m 127/136.
Saturday: 16 miles ( mis read plan ). New approach to pacing. Pace is supposed to be between 8:08-9:12. Re reading P&D start the slower end and finish near the faster end. So decided to keep >9 for 5, 8.30-9.00 for next 5 and finish running "easy' by feel. Result ....first 5 were a bust - too fast again, second 5 better but still to fast, final 5 about right. Warm enough and a little humid - seems warmer than it was. Did find a kids playground with a sprinkler so decided to loop that block a few times before returning to the park. Started to feel the strain at mile 9 which is disappointing. I would expect to get into at least the low teens before this began. Given that way I was cranking out 20 miles early in the year this is sobering.

Week | PlanWeek | M| T| W| T|F| Sat | Sun |Total
19 | P&D 15 | rest | 11LR | 13LR | 5R | LT9/4 | 5R | 15 | 58
19 | MyPlan | 11LR | 13LR | 5R | LT9/4 | 5R | 15LR | rest | 58
19 | Actual | 11LR | 13LR | 5R | LT9/4 | 5R | 16LR | rest | 59
| HR(Avg/Max)| 131/145 | 134/144 | 126/136 |148/168 | 127/136| 135/152 | |
| Weather | | | |69f/88% | |72f/66%-78f/64%| | |
| Comments | | | | humid !| | Tough after 9m | |

pgmcpq · 21-06-2010 5:44pm

Week 18 (P&D14):

Ok vacation (I'm going to the seaaide ! Aka the Jersey shore - dust off the old Springsteen records/downloads) and races dictate that I start fiddling with the P&D plan here. Principally I am swapping the scheduled weekend next long runs around. Therefore this week's LSR becomes 18 with 10 @ pmp, and next week becomes a simple LSR.

So this week looks like :

Week | PlanWeek | M| T| W| T|F| Sat | Sun |Total
19 | P&D 14 | rest | GA9 w10*100m | 14LR | 5R | 11LR | 5R | 18 | 62
19 | MyPlan | ga9 w/10*100 | 14LR | 5R | 11LR | 5R | rest/drive | 18LR w/10@PMP | 62

Monday: 9 miles with 10*100m (6, 10*100, 1.5). Temp 74f/55%. After a long core session on Sunday my hips were feeling the strain - odd. Otherwise a decent session - other than again being way to fast. Still not sure my "strides" are correct - I seem to find myself overstriding but at least I correcting the problem.

pgmcpq · 22-06-2010 5:26pm

Tuesday: 14 miles. Temp: 71f/44% - 78f/44%. 5.30am alarm! Again trying a more disciplined approach to pace on long runs, 5>9.00mm, 5 ~= 8.40, and 4 miles <8:20mm. The first 5 again was too fast... 8.45-8.50ish ... but the rest was pretty much on target. Not too bad ... but again I am getting a little nervous that I am seem to feeling the strain pretty early in these runs which are about the same overall pace that I ran in the prior training cycle. Maybe I really am a winter runner. On the plus side I was pretty happy with breathing and form on this run.

Looking forward to a lie in tomorrow to 7am !

pgmcpq · 25-06-2010 5:13pm

Wednesday : 5 miles, recovery, 4 on grass. Temp: 74f/60%. HR a=126,m=135 Pace : 9:24.
Nice run ... until I went over on an ankle. Luckily it seems no damage was done but I was holding my breath for 24 hours. Unfortunately the later starts means I am sharing the playing fields with many unleashed dogs which I am not trilled about.
Thursday: 11 miles, Temp 78f/80% (6.45am). HR a=138,m=160.
Miles 1-5: 8:41-9:08, Miles 6-10: 8:22-8:59, Mile 11: 8:28. Hot ! But actually run was ok ... at least better than I would have expected. I can see the dreaded day coming when I am going to have to beat a retreat to the gym. Happy that the ankle held up ... but later in the day that knee I over extended on snow during the winter began to give me grief. It seems no to enjoy being inactive.
Friday: 5 miles, recovery - all grass. Temp 71f/44% Pace: 9:12, HR: 124,136. Knee and ankle both ok. I think running the recovery runs on grass is really helping me avoid the wear and tear this time. Perhaps I should move some of the other runs also ?
Off to the shore tomorrow ... so my next recovery run will be on hard sand on the beach very early Monday morning when the tide is out (bare foot ?). Does not fit the schedule too well - but damn it - I feel there's a running cliche in there that I need to pay hommage to !

Sunday will be 18 with 10 at PMP (swapped with next week - 13 - on the plan ). This works out well as the shore it typically 5 to 10 degrees cooler than up here. This will be the first real indicator as to how realistic my thoughts on Dublin are. Fingers crossed.

pgmcpq · 30-06-2010 5:14pm

Sunday: 18 miles, 10 at PMP, 5-10-3, Average pace 8:06, HR Avg=142, Max=158, Temp 75f, high 80s%.
First full day of vacation. Misty, hot and humid at 6:30am. This is an island off the Jersey shore, with the ocean on one side and a bay on the other. The mist is common in the morning the humidity is definitely not usual. I figured once the mist burned off it would ease up, but this never really happened. So this was another struggle. Left a supply of water bottles in front of the house which I hit every six miles.
Got the PMP miles in - the provisional planned pace is 7:38 :
Pace: 7:46, 7:34, 7:35, 7:46, 7:40, 7:32, 7:32, 7:37, 7:34, 7:28
HR Max: 145, 151, 152, 154, 156, 158, 158, 157, 156, 158
HR Avg 140, 147, 150, 151, 153, 152, 155, 155, 154, 155

So done - but without much margin for error. I am not sure I see this pace continuing for another 16.2 miles .... so still am not sure what to conclude for this. It's been brutally hot for running this whole month so it's hard to come to any really conclusion about a pace for Dublin.

Retired to the beach and went swimming.

Week|PlanWeek|M|T|W|T|F|Sat|Sun|Total
18| P&D 14 | rest | 9A w10*100 | 14LR | 5R | 11LR | 5R | 18 | 62
18| MyPlan | 9A w10*100 | 14LR | 5R | 11LR | 5R | rest | 18 w/10PMP | 62
18| Actual | 9A w10*100 | 14LR | 5R | 11LR | 5R | rest | 18 w/10PMP | 62
|HR(Avg/Max)| 137/161 | 129/156 | 125/135 | 138/160| 124/138 | -- | 142/158 |
| Weather | | | | | | | 75f/80%+ |
| Comments | | | | humid !| | | misty humid |

Monday; 5 miles, recovery pace (11:36 :eek: - it takes sooooo long to do a mile at this pace) , early morning on the beach. Bare foot run on the flat wet sand. Much harder than I expected - in fact really to hard for a recovery run despite the average pace. Looks much better in the commercials. First lesson learned - the beach can really slope putting pressure on the ITB. Change direction regularly ! Second lesson learned is this : excercise caution. Serveral times the sand would just collapse under me swallowing my ankle. Eventually I realised this was likely to be where kids dug deep holes right by the water edge. The tide fills the hole but the sand does not 'pack' down. Aother running hazard. Not too much else except that recovery runs on the sand should probably be kept short !

Retired to the beach and got bounced around like a rag doll. Atlantic was seriously ticked off.

Tuesday: 13 miles. Pace 8:33. HR Avg=132, HR Max=145. Temp 78f, 66%
Aiming to keep to my new pacing model, 5 miles > 9mm, 5 =~ 8>40, 3 =~8.30.
Still feeling the effect for the previous days efforts. So not easy and was happy enough to finish ... but did not feel quite as drained as I'd expected.

Retired to the beach and found that the water temperature had dropped by 10 degrees, lost feeling in the limbs and got bounced around like a rag doll

Wednesday: 6 miles recovery. Back home and suddently the temp has dropped. Nice conditions this morning, the dogs agreed to share the playing fields with me today and all is right with the world.

menoscemo · 30-06-2010 5:25pm

Good Going PG, don't worry; the temperature will have dropped a lot by late October in Dublin, so you won't have any heat or humidity problems.

I am having to butcher my schedule over the next few weeks too. I had a half marathon on Sunday and this week's schedule has gone to pot totally so i am having to swap it with next week (a recovery week). How long did it take you to recover from your half? I couldn't go more than 4 or 5 miles at 9:30 pace the past few days...

I have another half and a 10k coming up over the next 3 weeks too, they will have to replace a few of my LT/PMP runs I think.

pgmcpq · 30-06-2010 5:44pm

menoscemo wrote: »

Good Going PG, don't worry the temperature will have dropped a lot by late October in Dublin, so you won't have any heat or humidity problems.

Yeah ... but it has the potential to really screw my training over the summer. It's not that these temps are exceptional here but this is way too early for them - if the rest of the summer is like this ....:(

menoscemo wrote: »

I am having to butcher my schedule over the next few weeks too. I had a half marathon on Sunday and this week's schedule has gone to pot totally so i am having to swap it with next week (a recovery week). How long did it take you to recover from your half? I couldn't go more than 4 or 5 miles at 9:30 pace the past few days...

They say it takes a day per mile raced - it might be a little less than that but not much. My approach is that for if I race a HM this cycle I will treat that as a long LT session and try to schedule no PMP or LT work for at least the week following. After a HM I when I training for the spring marathon I found that I felt no problem trying faster paces - but it simply did not happen... the legs would go around but I did not move any faster and it probably did little to advance my training. I'd certainly consider pulling out all the stops on recovery - post race stretching and nutrition, ice bath, epsom salts. I wouldn't force it - it'll just pospone the return of a quality sessions.

It's a dilemma - I have two HMs coming up I plan to race only one ... but I am pretty close to a NY marathon qualifying time... so unless I can hit that it will be sooo tempting to race both .....

menoscemo wrote: »

I have another half and a 10k coming up over the next 3 weeks too, they will have to replace a few of my LT/PMP runs I think.

Krusty suggested if I was going to race that 5k/10k races could replace LT sessions, and I figure the HMs replace PMP miles.

Krusty_Clown · 30-06-2010 10:32pm

pgmcpq wrote: »

Krusty suggested if I was going to race that 5k/10k races could replace LT sessions, and I figure the HMs replace PMP miles.

Given that the P&D V02max sessions are run at 5k pace, it would make a suitable (but tough) replacement for one of the V02 max sessions. A 10k race would be closer to P&Ds LT threshold sessions (15k - 1/2 marathon pace) but again, would be tough! The schedules also usually have a couple of 10k races in them, so lots of opportunity to race. If you are going to race though, best to drop one of the sessions during the week. If It's a weekend, swap it around so you do your one of your aerobic sessions durnig the week instead.

If the race is on a Saturday, you can still do an LSR on a Sunday but it is really hard and really painful

Krusty_Clown · 30-06-2010 10:53pm

pgmcpq wrote: »

Got the PMP miles in - the provisional planned pace is 7:38 :
Pace: 7:46, 7:34, 7:35, 7:46, 7:40, 7:32, 7:32, 7:37, 7:34, 7:28
HR Max: 145, 151, 152, 154, 156, 158, 158, 157, 156, 158
HR Avg 140, 147, 150, 151, 153, 152, 155, 155, 154, 155

That is really good going. I'll be attempting 8 miles at pmp this weekend, and I'll be lucky to get anywhere near as close to my PMP, and it wont be nearly as hot. You should be well happy with that. you're not supposed to feel like you could hold that pace for 26 miles at this stage. If you could, then your PMP wouldn't be aggressive enough!

pgmcpq · 01-07-2010 3:44am

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Given that the P&D V02max sessions are run at 5k pace, it would make a suitable (but tough) replacement for one of the V02 max sessions. A 10k race would be closer to P&Ds LT threshold sessions (15k - 1/2 marathon pace) but again, would be tough! The schedules also usually have a couple of 10k races in them, so lots of opportunity to race. If you are going to race though, best to drop one of the sessions during the week. If It's a weekend, swap it around so you do your one of your aerobic sessions durnig the week instead.

If the race is on a Saturday, you can still do an LSR on a Sunday but it is really hard and really painful

Hum ... hope I did not butcher your instructions too much.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That is really good going. I'll be attempting 8 miles at pmp this weekend, and I'll be lucky to get anywhere near as close to my PMP, and it wont be nearly as hot. You should be well happy with that. you're not supposed to feel like you could hold that pace for 26 miles at this stage. If you could, then your PMP wouldn't be aggressive enough!

Interesting. I'd been wondering about how the PMP should feel. There is an old lengthy thread on this subject elsewhere (RW) which I am part way through ... there's some opinion that finding the PMP miles difficult means the pace is unrealistic.
Again my PPMP (provisional PMP - my newly coined term!) is 50/50 wishful thinking and a few calculators base on HM results - not the most rigerous criteria !
In the interests of full disclosure this is week 3 of P&D for me - Actually I am doing week 3 twice !).
New plan - chcking the weather ahead if will hit 91 on Sunday and 95 on Monday. So I am swapping the LSR back to Friday morning - it looks like it Friday 5 am or bust.
Ok so now the next three weeks look like ... shuffled to fit in two races (the 5k might be dropped to training run depending on how crowded it is) but worrying dissimilar to the orginal P&D plan.

The current cunning plan:

Week|M|T|W|T|F|Sat|Sun|Total
17| 5R | 13 LR | 6 RP | LT10 w/5 at 15k pace | 16 LRP | rest | Cranford 4m Firecracker | 54
16| 8 GA | 5 RP | 14LR | GA 6 w 10*100 | 5 RP | 20LR | rest | 58
15| 5RP | Hoboken 5K | 14 LRP| 5 RP | 11GA w10*100 | 16LR | rest | 69

pgmcpq · 01-07-2010 4:03pm

Thursday: 10 miles, LT session, 5 miles at 15k pace (7:05), Temp: 70f/34%
Fantastic morning - sunny cool a little wind. Considered dropping this session in view of the 4 miler on Sunday but given the possible conditions on Sunday I figure I should get the session in while I can. The five miles were : 7:07 and then four miles between 6:52 and 6:55 - possibly a little too fast. HR maxed at 160 on the final LT mile. Felt not too bad on the tempo miles once I got going ... the first two were grim but after that I settled down and had to rein things in a bit - the weather is a huge factor even over relatively short distances.

If I can pull off the 5am start and get in a 16-18 mile LR tomorrow morning before I'll be able to do the race and finish the shorter stuff in the gym over the long weekend.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'll be attempting 8 miles at pmp this weekend, and I'll be lucky to get anywhere near as close to my PMP

Thinking about this - at risk of stating the obvious your PMP and my PMP are qualitatively different ! For your PMP would involve a longer stretch from the start of training than mine. Dunno - but it is similar in reasoning to why P&D suggest that tempos be done at a relatively higher effort for slower runners - slower runners need to push a little more to get into LT area (at least this is why I am rationalizing it - otherwise they are just cruel, cruel nasty men).

This is the thread I was talking about - as ever opinions are split but the discussion is interesting.
http://www.runnersworld.com/community/forums/index.jsp?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aTrainingForum%3a697106477Discussion%3a2611097543&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

Incidently - I have reverted back to Lap Pace as the main display on the Garmin, with current pace below it. It's handy for staying on target consistently. The first 1/3 of the mile however Lap Pace cannot be taken too seriously. Cannot figure out how the calculation is being done early in the lap/mile - it's almost like it assumes you'll walk the rest until you complete enough of the mile to persuade it you are serious !

pgmcpq · 02-07-2010 4:21pm

Friday: 16 miles. Pace 9:03mm. HR ? Temp ? - cool, no humidity.
5am start:eek:, out before 6am. Gorgeous morning, cool & dry especially before the sun had really risen - though starting at this hour is not something I'd want to do on a regular basis - though more of these conditions and I might be convinced.

Plan called for 18 miles but given the need to get this in before work, and with a race Sunday I decided 16 would do and I'll make it up later.
Woke up with some stiffness in the legs and the hips. Intended first 5 miles < 9mm - more recovery that LSR pace, next 5 @ 8.45, last 6 @ 8.30.
The first 5 were on plan but the faster miles never really happened - miles 7-16 were mainly in the 8:5x dipping to 8:3x on mile 14. During the run I thought I was close to target - so I was surprised by the overall pace. After the first five miles I was not really holding back. There was a bathroom and a "save my water bottle from that damn dog" break - but still. However it is in LSR range and coming on the back of yesterdays LT session I am not unhappy. Given the timing and weather - it was this morning, Monday on the threadmill or nothing.

Depending on how the legs feel I might stretch them tomorrow with 2 or 3 miles recovery.

New face on the route today. Some guy came along looking very much the part, good looking form, maintain a blazing pace without appearing to break sweat. Given my tootling along at 9mm this could really raise self esteem "issues". I know most of the local guys to at least not to - curious to see if this guy reappears again.

Ok ... now to catch up on sleep at the office.

Krusty_Clown · 03-07-2010 4:47pm

pgmcpq wrote: »

This is the thread I was talking about - as ever opinions are split but the discussion is interesting.
http://www.runnersworld.com/community/forums/index.jsp?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aTrainingForum%3a697106477Discussion%3a2611097543&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

Interesting thread indeed. But running 5 x mile repeats at 5:48/mile (one would assume close to the OP's maximum mile pace!) in training for a 7:15 pace marathon seems crazy, and to do it two days before a 10 mile PMP suggests a rather skewed training plan. To quote the OP: "I have his (the pftizinger) book -- but I prefer to make things up myself". If the OP can run mile repeats at 5:48, I can't understand why holding a 7:15 pace would be so difficult, unless they are really lacking in the long run department, and have endurance issues. Reading on I see that he runs all of his long runs at marathon pace. I think there's more to LA runner's training than meets the eye. If he runs all of his training runs at pmp, and struggles with 10 miles @pmp, that suggests that his long runs weren't any longer than 10 miles.

pgmcpq · 04-07-2010 5:52pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Interesting thread indeed. But running 5 x mile repeats at 5:48/mile (one would assume close to the OP's maximum mile pace!) in training for a 7:15 pace marathon seems crazy, and to do it two days before a 10 mile PMP suggests a rather skewed training plan. To quote the OP: "I have his (the pftizinger) book -- but I prefer to make things up myself". If the OP can run mile repeats at 5:48, I can't understand why holding a 7:15 pace would be so difficult, unless they are really lacking in the long run department, and have endurance issues. Reading on I see that he runs all of his long runs at marathon pace. I think there's more to LA runner's training than meets the eye. If he runs all of his training runs at pmp, and struggles with 10 miles @pmp, that suggests that his long runs weren't any longer than 10 miles.

Yes. LA Runner (who runs all his LR at MP) seems a little strange -I'd assume that his/her MP is more "desired" MP than "planned" MP. The discussion provoked by the OP's post prior to the LA hijack got my attention at it was exactly my thought the 10 PMP. I still have the uneasy feeling that the PMP miles should be less of a struggle at this point for me. Still I'll see how it goes before I start firming upon a goal for Dublin.

See you made it through your PMP in good shape !

.... and the hand-wringing above segways neatly into Cranford ....

pgmcpq · 04-07-2010 6:21pm

Sunday: 4mile race, + 1 mile post race. Temp 87f/25%

Nice race - about 1500 runners a big jump on last year, first two miles are great - third mile is a little weird going through a school ground, some uneven roads and over a wooden bridge just about wide enough for two abreast. Mile 4 winds through a public park to a finish.

Offical results are not up yet. Provsionally 28.22 for 106th...pretty disappointed with this was expecting something close to 26.xx and an outside shot at an AG place. It was hot, but humidy was low so conditions were not too bad. Not sure but again I positioned too conservatively at the start and perhaps started too conservatively but I was consistantly behind target. Was not really focusing on the Garmin too much on the run but I am shocked to see how far off the pace I really was. Long time since I missed a target so badly in short race.

Garmin splits were 7:37, 6:59, 7:01, 6:31

So what went wrong : Didn't wear the HRM so there is no evidence there. My best guesss is that I went out too cautiously and remained too cautious. From the first mile I was overtaking, and was overtaken only once that I recall so there was little obvious clue that the race was slipping away.

No question - a very disappointing day. To put in in context my pace here was a second per mile slower that my HM pace at a HM 6 weeks ago.

106. 28:22.09 7:05 96/735 M45-49:13/104

pgmcpq · 04-07-2010 7:06pm

:eek: Off topic but the front of the sports section of the New York Times carries an article about the annual hotdog eating contest at Coney Island.
Eating is now a sport organized under the "International Federation of Competitive Eating". Do/could non runners react at running the way I instinctively respone to reading this ? What's next compeitive smoking ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/sports/04hotdogs.html?_r=1&ref=sports

pgmcpq · 05-07-2010 9:25pm

Monday 11 miles, General Aerobic. Heat drove
me indoors to the threadmill so began at 6.5mph and went to 7.3mph. Incline at 2% for most of the session.

Brain death occured somewhere after mile 7. Not sure howI will do the midweek "medium long" run.

pgmcpq · 06-07-2010 5:52pm

Last weeks table (week ending July 4).

Week|PlanWeek|M|T|W|T|F|Sat|Sun|Total
17| P&D 13 | rest | 9A w10*100 | 14LR | 5R | 11LR | 5R | 18 | 62
17| MyPlan | 5RP | 13LR | 5R | LT10/5 | 16LR | rest | 4m race | 54
17| Actual | 5RP | 13LR | 5R | LT10/5 | 16LR | rest | 4m race + 1 mile | 55
|HR(Avg/Max)| | 132/145 | 118/126 | 143/164 | 122/139 | -- | |
| Weather | warm | 80f+ | | | | | 87f/25% |
| Comments | beach run | | 9:26 pace! | humid ! | | | Cranford warm but ok |

Tuesday: 5 miles, recovery. Track, grass, wooden boardwalk. Temp 86f/60%. Hot...even the dogs are staying home. Stretching afterwards, I met my new buddy fresh off his AG (70s) win. Told me he used to run regularly in Virginia in 80f+ with 60% humidity. The running version of the "kids today" talk. He left, taking my last remaining self-respect with him.

This weather will stay until Thurday - my 14 miles tomorrow should be fun :eek:.

Krusty_Clown · 06-07-2010 10:24pm

pgmcpq wrote: »

:eek: Off topic but the front of the sports section of the New York Times carries an article about the annual hotdog eating contest at Coney Island.
Eating is now a sport organized under the "International Federation of Competitive Eating". Do/could non runners react at running the way I instinctively respone to reading this ? What's next compeitive smoking ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/sports/04hotdogs.html?_r=1&ref=sports

I did enjoy the story about one of the 'athletes' on the news yesterday. Jaysus, what a strange world we live in.

pgmcpq · 07-07-2010 3:46pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I did enjoy the story about one of the 'athletes' on the news yesterday. Jaysus, what a strange world we live in.

I wonder when the first doping scandal will hit the sport. Is indigestion medication considered performance enhancing medication :rolleyes:?

pgmcpq · 07-07-2010 3:52pm

Wednesday: 14 miles. Pace 9:03, Temp 85f/51%.
Started before 6am to avoid the worse of the heat. Had to turn back after a mile as I forgot to apply sunblock - with 13 miles left continuing on was not an option. Got the first 3 miles in before the sun was fully up, and a lone cloud managed to shade the sun for about 40 minutes.
Started at a very conservative pace. So overall pace was slower than usual but well within LSR range. Final miles were around 8:40. All in all better than expected - completed without major struggle.
Hopefully only one more day of this heat wave to go - but 5am again tomorrow.

Surprised by how many people were out given the hour and the weather.

Killerz · 08-07-2010 2:06am

Hey pgmcpq, as someone who has a bit of experience with the humidity, do you find that your race times on a non-humid day are a good bit faster than say the pace you can manage in humid training conditions? Its suddenly got a lot more humid here in Toronto, and I am finding it very hard to club together training runs of any decent length (ie 8-10 miles+) and go faster than c.8 min/miles.

pgmcpq · 08-07-2010 3:51pm

Killerz wrote: »

Hey pgmcpq, as someone who has a bit of experience with the humidity, do you find that your race times on a non-humid day are a good bit faster than say the pace you can manage in humid training conditions? Its suddenly got a lot more humid here in Toronto, and I am finding it very hard to club together training runs of any decent length (ie 8-10 miles+) and go faster than c.8 min/miles.

Bitter experience yes - answers no !
Humidity is a bigger factor than heat. That's why I have started to record temperature/humidity (pity GarminConnect does not synch in weather ). It's pretty subtle. I think this is why people get into trouble - you don't notice it immediately but after 5-6 miles for me the lungs just can't keep up, you start to overheat and pace will drops off.

Once humidity goes above 40% ( and it's not raining) I find the effort to keep a steady pace starts to climb. Above 60% ... I start to drop my pace range for the type of run. I don't fight it any more. I wouldn't worry too much about the drop off in pace - I'd guess that trying to keep up decent weather pace carries the same type risks as training too fast.

I can't quantify the effect yet - this is where the HRM monitor data would comes in handy.

Btw, the real killer is humidity with no breeze - basically sweating as a cooling mechanism fails.

If you have a copy of P&D Advance marathoning around take a look at p19 where he talks about HR drift.

Take a look at :
http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=8290
and
http://www.badwater.com/training/hoddeonheat.html

This morning I went out at 5.30 am, did 9 miles at about 8mm, took my shirt off when done and rung it out. My socks were so wet I squelshed my way home. I had to get a towel before going in the house !

if it any consolation - (and conditons are a bit better today) this summer has got nasty very early - this is August weather so hopefully August will be easier.

pgmcpq · 08-07-2010 4:05pm

Thursday: 9 miles (6 mile + 10*100m strides + 1i mile). Temp 75f,70% (iirc?).
Another 5.30am start. Some unexpected out of town visitors meant that last night was later than expected and dinner was eaten at 11pm. So this morning did not find me full of the the joys of life.
A little cooler, but humid and misty again. Forgot sunblock again

so ... decided despite the conditions to push the pace a bit to try to spend as little time in the sun as possible. Also after the disappointing 4miler I wanted to give the legs something a little more intense to think about - I think they might be getting to like the slower paced training a bit too much. So 1 mile warmup, 5 miles a little below 8m/m, 10*100m, and a warmdown to finish.

Think I am getting the hang of strides - I am more relaxed and focusing on stride and form. Interesting the stride miles show a new high for HT at a consistent max of 176. I really should investigate HR max - so I might wear the HRM for the 5k next week.

HR Update: Well that is interesting. Just uploaded the last few runs - and what do I see ... yesterday HR Max hit 187 on mile 3. Another reading of 170 on mile 14. No obvious reason why (elevation gain, pace increase, best pace was 8:12mm ). Curious - but that is the highest recorded so far - and on a slow medium run (albeit in stinking humid conditions) but it then dropped back into the 130/140s.

Tangent alert : Randomly tucking in here a link to a RR from the Ridgewood 10k cause I cannot edit earlier entries. Again this is not me (sadly)
http://www.runningtimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12103

menoscemo · 08-07-2010 11:31pm

pgmcpq wrote: »

[
HR Update: Well that is interesting. Just uploaded the last few runs - and what do I see ... yesterday HR Max hit 187 on mile 3. Another reading of 170 on mile 14. No obvious reason why (elevation gain, pace increase, best pace was 8:12mm ). Curious - but that is the highest recorded so far - and on a slow medium run (albeit in stinking humid conditions) but it then dropped back into the 130/140s.

Forget about those spikes, they tend to show up from time to time in the heart rate data on the garmin. I remember mine once showed a high of 250 at the start of a 5k race :eek:.
I reckon your best way to get a max is to go full out in a 5k race and sprint at the end. You should get your max near the finish line.
If you get a significant difference just before or straight after a spike in heart you can wirte it off as a glitch. High Hr tends to build itself up gradually through consiitent effort.
Just wondering why don't you normally wear your HRM in races? I always wear mine and it is not uncomfortable at all. In fact I find it helps prevent nipple chafing.

pgmcpq · 09-07-2010 1:41am

menoscemo wrote: »

Forget about those spikes, they tend to show up from time to time in the heart rate data on the garmin. I remember mine once showed a high of 250 at the start of a 5k race :eek:.
I reckon your best way to get a max is to go full out in a 5k race and sprint at the end. You should get your max near the finish line.
If you get a significant difference just before or straight after a spike in heart you can wirte it off as a glitch. High Hr tends to build itself up gradually through consiitent effort.
Just wondering why don't you normally wear your HRM in races? I always wear mine and it is not uncomfortable at all. In fact I find it helps prevent nipple chafing.

I thought the spikes were very early and somehow related to lack of sweat - or did I make that up - but it does look like a glitch.

The HRM is new for me and I'm not very comfortable with it. In the temps here anything that can chafe will chafe ! I might wear it in a 5k next week as this is unlikely to be an decent race (way over crowded - the goal for the first half mile is to stay upright - and forecast is awful) but I cannot really see myself wearing it in a race regularly - the less "stuff" I have the happier I am.

pgmcpq · 12-07-2010 5:36pm

Friday: 5 miles - recovery. Grass & track. Temp: 87f
Saturday: 20 miles. Pace: 9:03m/m, Temp at start:75f/70%+, at end: 80%/66%.

This is one of the 'extra' weeks in the plan so I had to decide on the LSR. A little early in the program for 20, but looking ahead weekends will become squeezed. This was my first 20 since the marathon in May so I was prepared to stop after 16 if things turned grim.
Up at 5am again:eek: out by six to avoid the worst of the day (and so I could watch the 3rd playoff).
One unfortunate effect of this was two "extended" bathroom breaks.
Intended to repeat the 5 miles pace (9:15, 9:00, 8:45, 8:30) but was infact about 15 seconds a mile slower than that for each 5 mile group - I think my last 5 miles averaged about 8:45 albeit skewed by a stop for water). Still I finished the run feeling pretty good.

Took a cold bath afterwards to speed recovery. Entry was not fun but the legs seemed to really appreciate it. So this will become part of the routine.

Amazed by how many people are out and about at 6am on a Saturday

On another unfortunate note Mrs P's Garmin took a trip through the washing machine ... it has survived so far.

This week I have a 7pm 5k on Tuesday. Last year this run was horribly crowded - not getting tripped was the priority for the first half mile. So I'd like to race this one to reassure myself but it depends on getting a decent starting position - something I am not good at.

Week|PlanWeek|M|T|W|T|F|Sat|Sun|Total
16| P&D 13(repeat) | rest | 9A w10*100 | 14LR | 5R | 11LR | 5R | 18 | 62
16| MyPlan | 10A | 5RP | 14LR | GA8 w10*100 | 5RP | 20LRP | rest | 62
16| Actual | 11A | 5RP | 14LR | GA8 W10*100 | 5RP | 20LRP | rest | 63
|HR(Avg/Max)| ? | 127/141 | 133/187 | 145/176 | 158/181 | 130/152 | |
| Weather | | 86F/80% | 85f/51% | 75/70% | | 75f/70% | |
| Comments | Treadmill | | 9:03 pace! | | Slower 9:26 ! | Slow 9:03 | |

pgmcpq · 12-07-2010 7:58pm

Monday: 6 miles recovery, Pace: 9:20m/m, Grass.
A late dinner last night did little for the continuity of this run - two breaks in the mix. We've had so little rain that the grass is brown and the ground so hard that there is little relief to be gained by running on grass - it's actually probably more of an effort given the poor surface (how they play soccer/football on this is beyond me).

Tomorrow considering 3miles, recovery pace with a few strides in the morning if the legs feel up to it. The evening will be a 5k run.

pgmcpq · 14-07-2010 6:34pm

Tuesday: AM Settled for 30 minutes on the stationary bike at low gear for a high leg turn over.

PM: Hoboken PWP 5k. Temp was 81f, Humidity 50%+(?), but cloud cover took some of the edge off. My first 5k in about 9 months so I was curious to see how it would go. Last year this was a rough run - overcrowded and almost fell twice in the opening quarter mile. This year they used a starting mat to try to persude people to position themselves more appropriately. The bottom line remains is that 1200 people is too many for the narrow opening street - though I suspect a thunder storm in the afternoon might have put off some people. This year I got in place early and took and held a starting position maybe five rows back from the front. After my last effort I decided to make a much more aggressive start and not worry about pacing. I suspect I have taken the "don't start too fast" thing too far in short races.
And finally I wore the HRM in a race for the first time.

All went to plan. With the good starting position I got off to a good start. Still some weaving but no danger unlike last year. Splits were :
Pace: 6:25, 6:20, 6:27 and 6:25
HR : 159, 171, 174 and 177 Max: 179
Splits reflect how I felt ... definately feeling the pain after mile 2. Was a little worried and hanging on towards the end. Was passed by a couple of runners in the last half mile but was able to kick in at the end and regain a few positions. Mrs P unexpectedly turned up to cheer me in. 19:51 was the last time I saw on the clock.
The intial results pasted up showed a time of 20.00.44 and I was a little disappointed to miss the sub 20, but the offical results posted online got me under the 20

. That's a PB by 1:33 and a goal for the year (sub 20) :

Place Time Pace Chip.
53. 19:56.44 6:25 M40-49:8/69 19:52.44

Pity about the the 10 year AG. Otherwise an AG 3rd would have been on the cards. This 40 year old AG is a tough competitive crowd. All in all a good evenings work.

What have I learned. 1) In shorter races I have been going out too conseratively, I think the finish of the marathon in May has been playing with my head 2) therefore I can probably return to my orignal thinking on PMP and training paces 3) My HR max really is high 170s. Hit 179 on the spint last night so I think this is the figure. (Actually that's not too far off the much maligned 220-Age result. Still have to determine the min. 4) 5 year age groups are better !

pgmcpq · 14-07-2010 6:49pm

Wednesday: 14 miles. After the 5k last night I was not sure how this would go and was prepared to cut it short, but while the legs were a bit tired it turned out to be a good session. Temp was 75f, 73%. Shortly after I started it began to rain, and rained continually for the two hours I was out. Aiming for stepped up pacing each 5 miles, first 0-5 at 9.00, 6-10, 8.40, 11-14 8.20 . Actual was 0-5 8.52, 6-10 8.39 with water breaks, 11, 12 were 8.47, 8.32 respectively, 13,14 were 8.12, 8.05
So while the shape was there the pace discipline has slipped a bit. There were a couple of heavy downpours during this period that might have effected the pace, and a break to hide my shirt away on the route (there are few things that scare me as much as chafed nipples).

Really enjoyed the rain (maybe not the downpours) - still humid but so refreshing.

Agggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh Thiery Henry has signed for the NY Red Bulls .... my local team - before I'd even been to the new stadium..... now I guess I have to boycott.