Unknown transaction on AIB current account

sixpack's little hat

Hello,

I checked my AIB online banking account today to find a transaction on my current account for €47.30 that I don't recognise. The transaction details are as follows:

12/02/10 OP/Vodaf6########3 47.30

It's presumably related to Vodafone but I use a credit phone and always buy €20 credit at a time. Other than credit I haven't bought anything off Vodafone for as far as I can remember.

Does anyone know what the 'OP' description stands for or has anyone had a similar problem with charges from Vodafone?

Thanks

LionelNashe

I would say OP stands for 'Operator', i.e. the operator that the charge relates to is Vodafone.
That's a strange one. Now I'm curious to see what it is.

jhegarty

My vodafone landline/broadband appears like that.

24/02/10 OP/Vodaf60########4 40.00

Rashers72

BT sold their landline/broadband business to Vodafone, hence I would guess you had your landline with them previously. However, they should have written to you, to let you know. Plus they email you with every bill, if that is what you requested.
The main difference between BT and Vodafone, is that Vodafone bill monthly.
As I said, I am just guessing this is what this is for.
I aslo think that the OP indicates the new company debiting you does not hold a specific new direct debit mandate for you, but is using the one you previously signed, with the old provider.

Thoie

All my direct debits start with OP - so OP/ESB, OP/InsuranceCompany, OP/Broadband Provider. Most other transactions are POS - ShopName (Laser transactions) or ATM Location.

Toots

OP actually stands for 'Originator Plus' which is a system whereby certain companies can set up direct debits on your account with verbal authorisation over the phone. Direct Debits that do not have OP in front of them are ones that you had to sign a mandate to set up.

Give AIB a buzz and see can they give you any more info on the transaction.

BuffyBot

Were you with BT before and pay by direct debit? - if so, that's probably it.

jimoc

If you aren't with BT or Vodafone and dont recognise the charge, then its also possible that someone has either fraudulently set up a DD on your account using Originator Plus or someone has made a genuine mistake in setting up their own.

Ring the bank first and find out what company it came from and then ring them.

sixpack's little hat

I was indeed with BT broadband and had completely forgotten about them switching over to Vodafone. Duhhhhh!

Glad I was able to account for it, cheers all for the replies.

Toots

sixpack's little hat wrote: »

I was indeed with BT broadband and had completely forgotten about them switching over to Vodafone. Duhhhhh!

Glad I was able to account for it, cheers all for the replies.

That's good. Glad to hear it wasn't anything more sinister

RoundTower

sorry to bump an old thread but I just noticed one of these on my account for €25.00. Looking back I have one the same time last month and the month before as well -- AIB won't show me any transactions before that but this could have been happening for a while!

I don't have any dealings with Vodafone or BT. 11 months ago I had a phone account with BT when I lived in a different house, but I cancelled it when I moved.

I'll ring AIB tomorrow, but what should I expect?

RoundTower

results:

it turned out vodafone had set up a new monthly direct debit on my account in April, after BT stopped debiting it in January (contract was terminated in December, but there might have been one extra payment due).

After making me come to the branch so they could bend me over for an hour AIB agreed to investigate it and they expect to be giving me back my money for the past transactions. However they said they couldn't stop the ongoing debit and told me I had to ring Vodafone about it! I will be closing my accounts there next week: hopefully they will have refunded me by Tuesday or so.

amen

If it is a Direct Debit on anything but a Credit Card I believe they can stop it immediately.

I would make life awkard and ask them from the copy of the signed form fro DB authorisation !

sarahlulu

If it is a direct debit which is set up by Originator Plus, there will not be a signed request, as it is set up by phone. This is why the bank will be unable to cancel it.

amen

interesting. If it is setup by phone do they not have to have a record of when and from it was setup ?

is it a voice confirmation or just a touch tone confirmation?

How does the originator know the person who has authority on the account actually set up the direct debit?

Where is the T&C held?

RoundTower

amen wrote: »

I would make life awkard and ask them from the copy of the signed form fro DB authorisation !

I asked them for this, they admitted they didn't have any authorization from me and Vodafone were a "legitimate company" who wouldn't have done anything wrong here. I asked them to make sure this wouldn't happen again: they told me they could suspend the direct debit for three months but after that my money was anyone's game.

I agreed to call Vodafone but that I wouldn't spend more than 10 minutes on the phone. Vodafone couldn't find my details from my name and address (needed my previous account number or phone number) so I hung up. I'll update next week whether I get the money back or not.

RoundTower

AIB rang me today (Friday) afternoon to tell me they still hadn't got anything for me and had done "everything they could". I reported the matter to the Gardai, who advised me to close the account.

I went into the branch, went through all the paperwork to close all my accounts, which I was more than happy to do. The lady handling the closing took it on herself to tell me a few times how it was all my fault and they were really doing everything they could do, so I tried to grin and bear it.

At the end she asked "Is there anything else I can do for you Mr xxx?" At this point this enormous middle-aged lady who had been listening in jumps up and says "No, he's finished. Have you closed your accounts? Are you finished here? In that case you can leave now, in fact I'll escort you to the door", bustles round the counter, and practically pushes me out the door.

I don't think I've ever been barred from anywhere before! I'm half hoping I am now barred from AIB and it wasn't just a manager getting upset about losing an account.

wmpdd3

I would send a registered letter to vodafone asking for an explaination, give them 10 days.

:Vodafone, MountainView, Leopardstown, Dublin 18, Ireland

also, esp if you don't get all the money back from aib, also get in touch with comreg.

Commission for Communications Regulation,
Block DEF,
Abbey Court,
Irish Life Centre,
Lower Abbey Street,
Dublin 1.

http://www.comreg.ie/contact_us/comreg_contact_details.141.contact.html

RoundTower

I don't really care what Vodafone's motivation or explanation is! AIB shouldn't have given them the money in the first place. If someone came into the bank and pretended to be me and managed to withdraw money from my account, I wouldn't try to track him down and ask him what he was thinking. I would want the bank to explain themselves and refund the money which they agreed to safeguard for me.

dotsman

It is unreal how many people working in bank branches who don't understand the Direct Debit scheme.

OK, I can see how you got pissed off and closed your accounts. But that doesn't really solved the problem (ie, you had to take time off and go through the hassle of closing and, I assume, opening an account elsewhere). Likewise, there is nothing to say that this won't happen again with your new bank (as I've found issue to be consistent throughout all the banks).

The fault started with Vodafone and could possibly have been resolved there. However, you have the right to resolve this via your bank. In this case, your branch didn't live up to the terms of the DD Scheme. If it was me, I would have complained to Vodafone, AIB's Customer Care Unit and to IPSO (to be really honest, if it was me, I would have also included the media and tried to get a campaign going against ISPO ). Ultimately, the gap between what you are guaranteed and what you received needs to be resolved by them.

Unfortunately, too many people either ignore it or, as in your case, just close the account. Thus, neither IPSO, nor the banks' Head Offices pay much attention to the issue as they are not aware of it (to the full extent), and thus, it continues.

I'm a big fan of the DD scheme, but IPSO and the Bank HQ's really need to get their houses in order as there are too many people involved who don't know what they are doing.

kaiser sauze

Hi Roundtower, you have been misinformed by at least two people who I am quite sure work in banks. It truly astounds me how many bank staff are not fully aware of the workings of the DD scheme.

The ONLY people you need to deal direct with is your bank.

YOU are fully in control of who deducts money from your account, DD or not.

The company/companies who are establishing these DDs on your account must action your written request to stop, if they do not, you can go to IPSO, but the small claims court is the better option. Quicker.

RoundTower wrote: »

results:

it turned out vodafone had set up a new monthly direct debit on my account in April, after BT stopped debiting it in January (contract was terminated in December, but there might have been one extra payment due).

After making me come to the branch so they could bend me over for an hour AIB agreed to investigate it and they expect to be giving me back my money for the past transactions. However they said they couldn't stop the ongoing debit and told me I had to ring Vodafone about it! I will be closing my accounts there next week: hopefully they will have refunded me by Tuesday or so.

You need to get back into that branch and cancel that DD tomorrow. There is nothing to stop you from doing this! If they tell you otherwise, ask to speak to a manager and demand that the DD is stopped, otherwise you will be making a complaint.

When you get this DD cancelled, this does not stop Vodafone from setting up a new one. Here's where is gets interesting:

You then need to keep a daily eye on your account-you've got online banking?-and watch for their new DD, call your bank BEFORE LUNCH AT LATEST BEFORE 11AM EVEN BETTER and request a RECALL of the amount being debited. Your bank must honour this request-they are within their rights to refuse if your account is overdrawn. Then cancel that stream (each claim on your account is called a stream).

In the meantime you have mailed/emailed Vodafone-do not waste money on registered letters!-and told them to stop setting up new streams on your account. You will eventually get a response from them saying that they will.

The reason why you do it this way is so that there is no waiting while bank staff 'investigate' your claim. You are never short of the money they debit, because you have RECALLED each attempt.

kaiser sauze

Addendum - fell free to PM me if you want more detail, I have lots of experience dealing with banks in this regard.

kaiser sauze

sarahlulu wrote: »

If it is a direct debit which is set up by Originator Plus, there will not be a signed request, as it is set up by phone. This is why the bank will be unable to cancel it.

NO NO NO NO NO

Your post is not entirely accurate, Originator Plus allows a company to setup DDs on a person's account, even if they have cancelled an old one.

However, a person can RECALL any direct debit from their account on the day it is being debited, then they can cancel that direct debit authorisation. This means the originator will have to setup another stream.

Saying that the bank is powerless is anathema to the rules of the DD scheme.

amen wrote: »

If it is a Direct Debit on anything but a Credit Card I believe they can stop it immediately.

I would make life awkard and ask them from the copy of the signed form fro DB authorisation !

You are correct, they can stop it (this particular stream anyway), Roundtower has had the misfortune of dealing with more bank staff who do not understand the system.

The problem is that the originator is Originator Plus, so they can make a new claim on the account and it means that Roundtower needs to keep a daily eye on his accounts.

It is likely a 3rd party verifier.

kaiser sauze

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I would send a registered letter to vodafone asking for an explaination, give them 10 days.

:Vodafone, MountainView, Leopardstown, Dublin 18, Ireland

also, esp if you don't get all the money back from aib, also get in touch with comreg.

Commission for Communications Regulation,
Block DEF,
Abbey Court,
Irish Life Centre,
Lower Abbey Street,
Dublin 1.

http://www.comreg.ie/contact_us/comreg_contact_details.141.contact.html

Roundtower will get his money back. The problem is his account has been raided and he is short the amount while this abuse of the system is rectified.

kaiser sauze

RoundTower wrote: »

I asked them for this, they admitted they didn't have any authorization from me and Vodafone were a "legitimate company" who wouldn't have done anything wrong here. I asked them to make sure this wouldn't happen again: they told me they could suspend the direct debit for three months but after that my money was anyone's game.

I agreed to call Vodafone but that I wouldn't spend more than 10 minutes on the phone. Vodafone couldn't find my details from my name and address (needed my previous account number or phone number) so I hung up. I'll update next week whether I get the money back or not.

AGAIN MORE NONSENSE. Those bank staff really need a kickin'.

Please go back in, armed with the info I have given you, approach the very staff member you dealt with and give them 10 seconds to cancel all live Vodafone streams on your account.

You are within your rights to do this, do not let them tell you otherwise.

RoundTower wrote: »

AIB rang me today (Friday) afternoon to tell me they still hadn't got anything for me and had done "everything they could". I reported the matter to the Gardai, who advised me to close the account.

I went into the branch, went through all the paperwork to close all my accounts, which I was more than happy to do. The lady handling the closing took it on herself to tell me a few times how it was all my fault and they were really doing everything they could do, so I tried to grin and bear it.

At the end she asked "Is there anything else I can do for you Mr xxx?" At this point this enormous middle-aged lady who had been listening in jumps up and says "No, he's finished. Have you closed your accounts? Are you finished here? In that case you can leave now, in fact I'll escort you to the door", bustles round the counter, and practically pushes me out the door.

I don't think I've ever been barred from anywhere before! I'm half hoping I am now barred from AIB and it wasn't just a manager getting upset about losing an account.

Oh, I see here you closed you accounts!

Great stuff! That's another case of a customer finishing with a bank due to lack of service.

If you have any issues with the next bank in relation to DDs, apply the info here to it. The "Originator Plus" companies are the worst, they feel like they have a licence to raid on their whims, but the customer is the one in control, however, banks do not like people knowing these things as it means more work for them.

sarahlulu

Under the rules of the Originator Plus system, the bank must give you an immediate refund if funds have been paid in error.

kaiser sauze

DOUBLE

kaiser sauze

sarahlulu wrote: »

Under the rules of the Originator Plus system, the bank must give you an immediate refund if funds have been paid in error.

This is true, but never happens in practice.

Once the money has left your account you are fighting against bank staff malaise and indifference and their belief that the direct debit system lets companies have free dibs on your account.

They make you jump through the hoops and never accept your side that you have been plundered. The average turnaround is 28 days, after you have spent lots of your own time getting together everything you can to square your side of the story and you have to leave them with no avenue to question it, otherwise you hit the "computer says no" stance. The fact that you are their customer seems to be of little relevance to them.

Croc

Vodafones Accounting is very shoddy to say the least.

They wrote to me 10 months after i closed an account with them to tell me I owed them approx €45, plus threatening legal action (red letter despite this being the first one) i knew i had paid all the bills.

It turns out that they were trying to charge me for a period when i was still a BT customer, BT confirmed to me that i had paid them in full and offered to give me a letter to that effect if i needed it.

I called Vodafone to say that they could whistle for the money and if they continued to pursue the matter i would lodge a complaint with comreg that was two months ago.

Never heard a thing since, still waiting for their letter of apology for the alleged attempted fraud on their part.

I have the paperwork to back this up.

RoundTower

AIB refused to repay the money, which is a bit surprising because I thought they would drag their feet but eventually return it.

I'm not sure what the next step is: Financial Ombudsman or the courts or go back to the Gardai.

dotsman

RoundTower wrote: »

AIB refused to repay the money, which is a bit surprising because I thought they would drag their feet but eventually return it.

I'm not sure what the next step is: Financial Ombudsman or the courts or go back to the Gardai.

I would complain jointly to AIB (not the actual branch you have being dealing with, but AIB HQ) and to Vodafone.

You can't take a complaint to the Ombudsman until you have complained to the bank itself first using their complaints procedures, followed by a complaint to Vodafone using their complaints procedures, followed by a complaint to ISPO using their complaints procedures. To date, you have only been dealing with the branch. You need to change this to a formal complaint directed to their HQ.

From the AIB Website:

AIB Terms of Business wrote:

If you have reason to complain about the provision to you of a product or service, or the failure to provide a product or service, you should firstly contact the manager of the relevant branch or department. If the matter is not resolved to your satisfaction, you should write to; The Manager, AIB Customer Support Centre, Bankcentre, Dublin 4.

If your complaint is still not resolved to your satisfaction, you may then refer the complaint to The Financial Services Ombudsman’s Bureau, 3rd Floor, Lincoln House, Lincoln Place, Dublin 2. Lo Call 1890 88 20 90 or email enquiries@financialombudsman.ie

For vodafone, please see their website for their complaints procedures here


You should also see the IPSO website for clarification on how to complain in relation to Direct Debits: http://www.ipso.ie/section/DirectDebits. You will notice 2 PDFs

• Direct Debit Complaints Procedure
• Direct Debit Complaints Escalation Form

These spell out that you must formally complain to the bank and originator before escalating to IPSO. After IPSO have investigate, if you are still not happy, a complaint can then be made to the ombudsman.

P.S. I would forget the Guards/Courts. They won't do anything. There are formal channels to complain and get your money refunded open to you as per above.