What do you want?

Red_Marauder

I don't think I'm completely alone in being sometimes exasperated at some of the demands that posters on this forum seem to insist upon when it comes to our public representatives.

How often do we see politicians portrayed here as sinister, dishnourable, lazy fatcats with little or no interest in the future of Irish society and/ or of very poor capability?
I always get suspicious about bulk assertions when they are applied to an entire body of people, be they Gardaí or public sector workers or the unemployed. It is particulary brow raising when these people are in effect snookered into a position where they tend to have to be seen to be constantly in deference and in gratitude to both the public and to the public hired whipping boy, the press.

And what I am really wondering, is what exactly are you expecting?

Lets look at the reality. Politicians are exposed to a huge amount of public attention. Often they are forsaking well paid or comfortable careers in private industry or private practice to work in a very insecure capacity in the public service. Unlike private industry, they are subject to huge amounts of media attention which is often critical not just at professional level but also can be critical and intrusive at personal level.

For many of them, the extra money they earn for these burdens just doesn't make financial sense. Most of them earn less than a Hospital conultants, some University lecturers, lawyers, and business people. In a great many cases, these are careers that our TDs have foresaken.

Someone suggested in the Trevor Sargent thread recently that Sargent should take off a huge chunk of his TDs salary and give up his pension. For a man who has erred, but has served his constituency and undeniably worked hard in the public interest for many years both at council and Oireachtas levels, I find this ludicrous.

Is the regular politician basher not being just a little bit too removed from reality here?

Now I know some people will post shoving the old line that No, all they want is honesty, transparency and capability. That's fine, we all want that and we have not always got it. But I am talking about these unrealistic expectations of constantly sterling performances and higher standards with lower wages that is so often sought after... and then Liveline levels of outrage when it is not delivered as expected. Do you really think that perfection is a fair request?

Fat_Fingers

er, you conveniently neglected to mention wast army of politicians who come from public sector - i.e. teachers, then group who have no experience of any public or private job. Or large number of politicians who come from families where politics is family business .

Laminations

I want better than this
and better than this
and this
and this
and this
and this
and this
and maybe expect better than this
and all together I want better than this

and if I were to get all my wish list I'd see these people all questioned in a public tribunal

Need I go on? I think you have enough tabs open there to see the types of things I dont want - anything better would be a start.

Laminations

The real question is what do you want? The answer I seem to get from you is an end to complainers complaining.

ednwireland

being honest would be a good start for me anyway

Overheal

Often they are forsaking well paid or comfortable careers in private industry or private practice to work in a very insecure[?!] capacity in the public service.

No offense, but What planet did you beam down from?

Do you really think that perfection is a fair request?

Theres a world of difference between perfection and Competence.

If you tell the cook its Good Enough, will he ever improve? Probably not. And you'll be left eating his Sh*t.

Laminations

Overheal wrote: »

No offense, but What planet did you beam down from?

Theres a world of difference between perfection and Competence.

Of course, he's using a straw man and false dichotomy as if we are seeking perfection as the only alternative to the total incompetence we get now.

Is there a planet in existence where 23 year olds think they know everything? We have that here but people usually grow out of it after their teens

Scofflaw

Don't let this thread become a rant-fest, please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Red_Marauder

Overheal wrote: »

Often they are forsaking well paid or comfortable careers in private industry or private practice to work in a very insecure[?!] capacity in the public service.

No offense, but What planet did you beam down from?

It's hard to respond to a question like that without any clarity on which part in specific you would contest.
I said that they are often giving up the potential to either earn a lot of money in private industry or be comfortable - looking at the amount of lawyers, business people, accountants and other professionals (including teachers ftm), I don't think that can be reasonably countered.

You also highlighted the word 'insecure', as though elected office is in fact a secure position. Given that a Government may fall at any time, particularly in times of severe downturn or a harsh political climate such as this, I think the word insecure is quite applicable. Elected officials do not have the comfort of job security shared by other members of the public service.

Laminations

I recognise politics is a tough job and I know for sure I couldn't do it. But I expect competence from the people who do decide to enter politics, the same way I expect a plumber (another occupation I'd be rubbish at) not to get his c*** caught in my kitchen sink.

A basic level of competence and standards. Neither of which we are seeing from this government. Now I've explained what I want, what do you want?

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

A basic level of competence and standards. Neither of which we are seeing from this government. Now I've explained what I want, what do you want?

Red_Marauder wrote:

Now I know some people will post shoving the old line that No, all they want is honesty, transparency and capability. That's fine, we all want that and we have not always got it. But I am talking about these unrealistic expectations of constantly sterling performances and higher standards with lower wages that is so often sought after

.

Overheal

Laminations wrote: »

Is there a planet in existence where 23 year olds think they know everything? We have that here but people usually grow out of it after their teens

Im so glad you took the time to abuse the privilege of my personal details to make yourself appear like an ass. Thanks. Now you've ruined it for everyone. Ageism ftw omg lol ttyl!!!1!!One :rolleyes:

enough of that..

@ Red Maurauder, insecure, not so much. When you look at the rate of FF re-election and the way the Senate works in the US you'd be forgiven for thinking there were 4-year terms at all. Once you're in, you're set for life, outside of a sex scandal it seems.

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

constantly sterling better performances and higher standards with lower wages

Is this not being demanded across the spectrum, with the talk of lowering the minimum wage and all that? Is that not the essence of our 'drive for competitiveness'. If you dont think politicians are overpaid, fine, you'd be in a minority.

gandalf

Its simple I want a national politician to deal with national issues, not whether the local GAA have a changing room, or the potholes are filled, they have to attend local funerals etc.

I expect the people we charge with managing our country to do that and ensure they are putting mechanisms in place to make sure that the future direction of the country is planned out and catered for.

At the moment we do not have this.

Red_Marauder

Overheal wrote: »

@ Red Maurauder, insecure, not so much. When you look at the rate of FF re-election...

Firstly, we're not just talking about FF here. All parties and all politicians come in for criticism and are subject to media attention and public scrutiny

But your point is totally without basis. The fact is that an election can be called at any time and politicians often do lose their seats - even high profile former ministers like Nora Owen, Mary O'Rourke, Alan Dukes and Alan Shatter spring immediately to mind.

It is undeniable that if you look inside any of the main parties, you will see politicians who could either do as well in private practice, or who at least could live very financially comfortably without all of the BS of politics. They do lose the edge by being out of their previous careers, and they could lose their public office in the morning - be that by a reshuffle or an election. These are the facts.

I don't think politicians are saintly patriots by any means, but I do think their pay levels are about right and I do think they are in general terms, underestimated across the board.

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

It is undeniable that if you look inside any of the main parties, you will see politicians who could either do as well in private practice, or who at least could live very financially comfortably without all of the BS of politics.

And who, may I ask, pervades and continues said-same bull**** ?

Red_Marauder wrote: »

They do lose the edge by being out of their previous careers, and they could lose their public office in the morning - be that by a reshuffle or an election. These are the facts.

And if they were any good, they wouldn't.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I don't think politicians are saintly patriots by any means, but I do think their pay levels are about right and I do think they are in general terms, underestimated across the board.

Underestimated on what basis ? The results they achieve ? Hardly.

dan_d

Laminations wrote: »

I want better than this
and better than this
and this
and this
and this
and this
and this
and maybe expect better than this
and all together I want better than this

and if I were to get all my wish list I'd see these people all questioned in a public tribunal

Need I go on? I think you have enough tabs open there to see the types of things I dont want - anything better would be a start.

What he (she?) said.

And respect.

All of the above links basically show exactly how much the politicians and so-called "fat-cats" of our country are giving the finger to ordinary Irish people every day of the week.

We put them there. We could take them away - though knowing our psyche as a whole, we probably won't. They screwed up. You can dress it up any way you like, you can lump responsibility on people for their mortgages etc, etc, but the bottom line is that they (refer to politicians/bankers/regulators in general), encouraged the madness - facilitated it even. And are now walking away scott-free. And I'm not referring to their ratings or their jobs. If we were living under American laws, there are a large number of people out there who would be in jail for white collar crime right now. But no....they're trotting off into the sunset.

I've taken my paycut, I think across the board pay cuts are needed, I think the public service need to grow up and stop whinging, I think Brian Cowen might actually be decent if he grew a pair and stood up to the various vested interest groups every now and then. I also think that they have not one iota of respect for the people who put them in their positions, who are paying their salaries, keeping the country going, and listening to the crap they insist on spouting to the media every day. They have proven they cannot be trusted and the only underestimation going on is how much we underestimate the scale of the complete screw up they have allowed to develop.

Scuse my rant, Scofflaw. I'm exiting this discussion now!

hallelujajordan

deadtiger wrote: »

Its simple I want a national politician to deal with national issues, not whether the local GAA have a changing room, or the potholes are filled, they have to attend local funerals etc.
.

Then we, as a people have to stop electing the people who we know will fix all the potholes

Red Marauder wrote:

It is undeniable that if you look inside any of the main parties, you will see politicians who could either do as well in private practice, or who at least could live very financially comfortably without all of the BS of politics. They do lose the edge by being out of their previous careers, and they could lose their public office in the morning - be that by a reshuffle or an election. These are the facts.

Example . . Brian Lenihan, Barrister at Law . . Joined the Bar in the 80's when he also lectured in Law at TCD . . Now TD and Minister for Finance.

Could he earn more money at the bar ?

Would he work less hours for that money ?

Would he have permanent job security ?

Would he have to cope with TV3 putting a gun to his head to reveal his cancer diagnosis to his family on St Stephens' Day?

Would he have a damn sight easier life ?

Is really easy for us to slag him (and other politicians) off from the cosy comfort of our internet connections. . . but there is a point at which we ought to recognise that these guys are making a sacrifice and a commitment for the good of the country . .

Red_Marauder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder
It is undeniable that if you look inside any of the main parties, you will see politicians who could either do as well in private practice, or who at least could live very financially comfortably without all of the BS of politics.

And who, may I ask, pervades and continues said-same bull****

The BS of politics which I am talking about here are things like knowing you have to attend funerals if you ever want to implement the policies you believe will help society; having to put up with media games because you both know how heavily they are relied upon for electoral success; having your personal life intruded upon and your family being caught up in your career.

Now politicians are big boys and girls and they know what they are getting into when they join up. But my point is that just because they know they are in for a rough ride it doesn't make it any more sensible that we should demand, somewhat masochistically, that they also take such severe pay cuts as have been mentioned or forego their pension, for example, when they make errors.
It's very easy for a regular punter to get up on his soap box and call up liveline or go on Joe Duffy spitting and hissing about politicians as though they are all one corrupt block while he never bothers his ass getting involved in politics himself, and speaks in the knowledge that it would be political suicide for a politician to go on Liveline in a similiar fashion and rebuke him for it.

We all know that politicians must appear placid, deferent, and apologetic and I do wonder if society doesn't take advantage of that fact sometimes.

Example . . Brian Lenihan, Barrister at Law

Yes, perfect example. Going back in time you also have people like Maire Geoghegen Quinn and Michael McDowell who I cannot help but think, for all of the good they undeniably did in their time (and yes there were mistakes as well), must look back on their time in public office with certain level of personal regret.

I think Maire Geoghegen Quinn would have been Taoiseach, and at that, an outstanding Taoiseach. I also think she would have been a remarkable force for good in an otherwise rather corrupt Fianna Fail party. Yet she felt it impossible to continue her public service as an elected representative and went on to serve the public away from the rather unforgiving sharpness of their open jaws.

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

it doesn't make it any more sensible that we should demand, somewhat masochistically, that they also take such severe pay cuts as have been mentioned or forego their pension, for example, when they make errors.

Freudian slip ? Because masochism is to damage oneself, rather than the other party.

And considering that I'm down about two-thirds of a "get by ok" salary for the last 5 months, I'm at a loss to figure out why those who mismanaged and led us head-first into this mess shouldn't be.

I mean, anything above €60,000 is not required to live/survive, while anything below €25,000 probably is.

So yes, those on large salaries - entrusted with managing the country and failing miserably - can (and should) take the cuts.

As for their future prospects beyond the next election - well that's in their own hands; if they perform (and don't condone corruption) then they'll get kept in office.

Of course, the fact that this should mirror your beloved capitalism won't have passed you by. If you're capable of a job, you get kept on or promoted; if you fail slightly, you can get demoted (with less salary) and if you're crap, you get fired.

At least in theory.

Mad_Max

As someone who was involved in the sargent bashing thread, what I want is real accountability from elected officials, not PR style accountability.

We have every right to hold them to higher standards too. They set the tone for the country, set the laws and their decisions effect everyones life good and bad...and after all, we bloody pay them.

What I expect is that if one is found out to be doing wrong then they leave the dail completely.

O'Dea lies in a sworn affadavit. Still a TD
Harney and O'Donoghue piss public money up the wall and both still TDs.
Sargent does something that "might be unlawful" and still a TD.
McDaid drink drives.. still a TD.
Bertie, well he doesnt deserve words, still a TD.

Opposition are what make this worse for me. Once they get a minister to resign they smile all the way to the bank and just leave it be.

BAH politics

Red_Marauder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Freudian slip ? Because masochism is to damage oneself, rather than the other party.

No... Really there is a certain masochism in this berating of policians en masse despite being a group of people we routinely choose of our own volition. I cannot think of any other industry where candidates are hired and then soon vehemently and so perpetually and inevitably opposed... their selection scorned as if some sort of insane subjection chosen by the public alter-ego.

Is it simply because they are often inflict the pain that we would never choose to directly inflict ourselves? Are they often scapegoats for our own personal mistakes?

It's like a pantomime. Why does an individual who constantly castigates politicians bother with the pretence of hiring them through popular vote and then spend the rest of his or her time writing off their contribution to society.

It seems to me that artists are not the only professionals who are only appreciated in death.

And considering that I'm down about two-thirds of a "get by ok" salary for the last 5 months, I'm at a loss to figure out why those who mismanaged and led us head-first into this mess shouldn't be.

This is just going around and around in circles. I have a problem with the term "led us". I don't remember any enthusiastic housebuyers being led anywhere they didn't wilfully leap of their own accord.

Of course, the fact that this should mirror your beloved capitalism won't have passed you by. If you're capable of a job, you get kept on or promoted; if you fail slightly, you can get demoted (with less salary) and if you're crap, you get fired.

No. That is how it should be. Instead, many posters just lazily tar the entire elected population with one brush and never acknowledge anything but failure. You see this every day on this very forum.

Where was the last thread you saw where people ever acknowledged a job well done without descending into whining soon after?

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Where was the last thread you saw where people ever acknowledged a job well done without descending into whining soon after?

Where was the last time you saw a job actually "well done" ?

And I don't mean "adequately considering they're on €1,500 a day", I mean actually well done ?

The only one I can think of was the smoking ban.

If something's well done, I'll acknowledge it, but I won't do an American-style "wow, aren't you brilliant" if someone manages the basics of the job they chose to sign up for.

On the other hand, if they put themselves forward and are ****e, then that's their own tough!

I mean, I wouldn't put myself forward to play soccer or rugby for Ireland, because I'm simply not good enough.

If I did, and people saw that I was ****e, then it's only fair that I'd be ridiculed.

Mad_Max

Plastic bag levy was the biz. Probably never said it on Boards but that's one I'm grateful of every day.

You're right though, the good things aren't pointed out but I'd say that the good things don't affect as many people, not these days anyway. I honestly can't remember anything really positive that's been done in a while.

zootroid

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Lets look at the reality. Politicians are exposed to a huge amount of public attention. Often they are forsaking well paid or comfortable careers in private industry or private practice to work in a very insecure capacity in the public service. Unlike private industry, they are subject to huge amounts of media attention which is often critical not just at professional level but also can be critical and intrusive at personal level.

For many of them, the extra money they earn for these burdens just doesn't make financial sense. Most of them earn less than a Hospital conultants, some University lecturers, lawyers, and business people. In a great many cases, these are careers that our TDs have foresaken.

Ok, lets go through each cabinet minister to see if that holds true (I'm not going through each TD as it would take too long, and it's reasonable to say that cabinet ministers are the more successful of the bunch).

Brian Cowen - became a TD at 24, previously qualified as a solicitor
Mary Coughlan - became a TD at 21, trained as a social worker
Brendan Smith - became a TD at 36, has a BA in politics and economics, worked as a special advisor to the Fianna Fail politician and former Tanaiste, John Wilson
Martin Cullen - became a TD at 32, worked as a sales manager for a wine company
Eamon Ryan - became a TD at 38, has a BComm, and previously worked as a tour operator
Eamon O'Cuiv - became a TD at 42, worked previously as a manager of a Gaeltacht co-operative
Batt O'Keefe - became a TD at 41, has a BA, and previously lectured at CIT
John Gormley - became a TD at 37, previously ran an academy of European languages
Brian Lenihan - became a TD at 36, previously worked as a barrister
Micheal Martin - became a TD at 28, obtained an MA, and worked as a secondary school teacher
Mary Harney - became a TD at 28, has a BA and worked as a secondary school teacher
Dermot Ahern - became a TD at 31, previously worked as a solicitor
Mary Hannafin - became a TD at 37, has a BA and worked as a secondary school teacher
Noel Dempsey - became a TD at 34, has a BA and worked as a career guidance teacher.

There are very few positions there that you would describe as being highly paid. Lenihan stands out as being someone who would have been fairly well off. The solicitors would have made a comfortable living. The remaining TD's all had either very little real world experience (from entering the Dail at such a young age, eg Brian Cowen and Mary Coughlan), or would have worked decent, but by no means exceptional jobs (eg, the teachers).

I also take exception to you describing the career as being insecure. Working in the private sector is insecure, the company you work for can go out of business for a number of reasons, poor performance, declining industry, or economic recession, and you are made redundant. TDs face the ballot once every 5 years (generally), and many are returned to office.

As for your original question about what do we want, well I would like to see fewer TDs so that national interests are the sole motivations of TDs rather than local ones. I would like to see TDs being elected on their own merit, rather than the position a family member held (take note Cowen and Coughlan). I would like to see more transparency and accountability from our TDs. The fact that there is such a deep mistrust of TDs is a huge cause for concern in any modern democracy. I would like to see TDs stop lying to the people, stop feathering their own nests and those of their friends, stop holding onto power for the sake of it, and actually put the needs of the country first.

Oh, and I would like to see most TDs coming from a prestigious job in the private sector. Part of the job of a government minister is running a department. As such they should have managerial experience. You will not get this by working as a teacher for 10 years or becoming a TD straight after college.

Would also like to see government ministers having relevant experience. The minister for finance should be an accountant or economist. The minister for justice should be a barrister or solicitor etc

lugha

OP, I don’t think there is anything special about the place or time we are in. When times are difficult, people complain about politicians much more than they do when everything is going well. I’ sure you see much the same thing in other democratic countries.

Short answer to the simplistic and silly claim that all politicians are dishonest/corrupt/unprincipled etc. is that we live in a country where we have free and fair elections. Anyone who takes a fancy can stand for election and every Dail returns a plethora of independents elected by people who were dissatisfied with how the establishment party represented them.

And of course, we can refrain from voting for those whom we don’t think fit for office. But we won’t. Forget the amusing suggestion coming from opinion polls that FF might be the second or even third biggest party in the next Dail. They are plenty in the ranks of the soldiers of destiny who might be embarrassed to admit to a pollster that they will back FF (as many Tory backers did in 1992) but that’s as far as their disloyalty goes. I will be astonished if FF are not still the biggest party in the next Dail.

In any democracy, there is only one place to point the finger when inept politicians are elected to office.

Sir Oxman

Accountability. Competence.
That's all I want. i don't want to know anything else about them. I don't want them nor expect them to be saints.
As for foregoing lucrative careers, there's more than likely a helluva lot of sweeter honey to be got from the pot (as one poster on this forum rightly identified)

There's the Senate for those who fail to get the potholes fixed or haven't got the right family name, the unvouched expenses, the quangos, the committees, the boards of big business just waiting to be filled.

Accountability. Competence.
These are people who hold the countrys fate in their hands, so no I won't stop complaining and highlighting the absolute soul-destroying and nation destroying crap that goes on as best I can within my meagre means.

Sir Oxman

zootroid wrote: »

Ok, lets go through each cabinet minister to see if that holds true (I'm not going through each TD as it would take too long, and it's reasonable to say that cabinet ministers are the more successful of the bunch).

Brian Cowen - became a TD at 24, previously qualified as a solicitor
Mary Coughlan - became a TD at 21, trained as a social worker
Brendan Smith - became a TD at 36, has a BA in politics and economics, worked as a special advisor to the Fianna Fail politician and former Tanaiste, John Wilson
Martin Cullen - became a TD at 32, worked as a sales manager for a wine company
Eamon Ryan - became a TD at 38, has a BComm, and previously worked as a tour operator
Eamon O'Cuiv - became a TD at 42, worked previously as a manager of a Gaeltacht co-operative
Batt O'Keefe - became a TD at 41, has a BA, and previously lectured at CIT
John Gormley - became a TD at 37, previously ran an academy of European languages
Brian Lenihan - became a TD at 36, previously worked as a barrister
Micheal Martin - became a TD at 28, obtained an MA, and worked as a secondary school teacher
Mary Harney - became a TD at 28, has a BA and worked as a secondary school teacher
Dermot Ahern - became a TD at 31, previously worked as a solicitor
Mary Hannafin - became a TD at 37, has a BA and worked as a secondary school teacher
Noel Dempsey - became a TD at 34, has a BA and worked as a career guidance teacher.

There are very few positions there that you would describe as being highly paid. Lenihan stands out as being someone who would have been fairly well off. The solicitors would have made a comfortable living. The remaining TD's all had either very little real world experience (from entering the Dail at such a young age, eg Brian Cowen and Mary Coughlan), or would have worked decent, but by no means exceptional jobs (eg, the teachers).

I also take exception to you describing the career as being insecure. Working in the private sector is insecure, the company you work for can go out of business for a number of reasons, poor performance, declining industry, or economic recession, and you are made redundant. TDs face the ballot once every 5 years (generally), and many are returned to office.

As for your original question about what do we want, well I would like to see fewer TDs so that national interests are the sole motivations of TDs rather than local ones. I would like to see TDs being elected on their own merit, rather than the position a family member held (take note Cowen and Coughlan). I would like to see more transparency and accountability from our TDs. The fact that there is such a deep mistrust of TDs is a huge cause for concern in any modern democracy. I would like to see TDs stop lying to the people, stop feathering their own nests and those of their friends, stop holding onto power for the sake of it, and actually put the needs of the country first.

Oh, and I would like to see most TDs coming from a prestigious job in the private sector. Part of the job of a government minister is running a department. As such they should have managerial experience. You will not get this by working as a teacher for 10 years or becoming a TD straight after college.

Would also like to see government ministers having relevant experience. The minister for finance should be an accountant or economist. The minister for justice should be a barrister or solicitor etc

Fully agree, excellent post - competence does not equate to a social worker from a political family being responsible for securing and encouraging job growth in normal times never mind now. For example. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

Red_Marauder

zootroid wrote: »

There are very few positions there that you would describe as being highly paid.

Again:

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I said that they are often giving up the potential to either earn a lot of money in private industry or be comfortable - looking at the amount of lawyers, business people, accountants and other professionals (including teachers ftm), I don't think that can be reasonably countered.

As an aside between the three main parties front benches, I count:

nine teachers, an economist, two medical doctors, four solicitors or Barristers, one who is a Barrister and University lecturer, two other lecturers (one also an accountant), a scientist, an engineer, and a variety of business people.

These are just the careers I know about and the ones that happen to be on three front benches. Of course there are many other professionals in Dáil Eireann and Seanad Eireann.

I also take exception to you describing the career as being insecure. Working in the private sector is insecure, the company you work for can go out of business for a number of reasons, poor performance, declining industry, or economic recession, and you are made redundant.

TDs can face a snap election on the coat tails of the very same circumstances... and may well do so sooner rather than later.

I would like to see TDs being elected on their own merit, rather than the position a family member held (take note Cowen and Coughlan).

This has been done to death. Front bench TDs who are related to other TDs are in the minority. It is the same throughout the Oireachtas.
Furthermore, you cannot deny that in any industry, an interest in a specific career tends to be hereditary in terms of environmental influence, and poltical success may be related to an early exposure to politics and political activism that may not occur in the households of other professionals.

That cannot be ignored, nor can one ignore the fact that the voting public invariably appoint our TDs whether you agree with their choice or not. There are no family appointments in Dáil Eireann.