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Main dealer sold me car with outstanding finance

2

Comments

  • #32
    Stoolbend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Stoolbend


    It could have just been the last payment due!

    The previous owner could have refinanced the new car and someone forgot to press a button on the computer!


  • #33
    mickdw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,870 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    barry81 wrote: »
    It could have just been the last payment due!


    Or it could be twice the value of the car due.
    The OP didnt just go in screaming for money back when they saw the report. They went into dealer. If at this time the dealer had checked it out or got confirmation that it was clear or did anything to show that the finance would be clear in a matter of days or whatever, the OP would most likely have gone with it. But the way the dealer behaved, the OP had a choice.... Take the car with finance owning & be none the wiser as to whether the dealer was going to clear it at some time although unlikely as he said there was no finance owing, or get money back. I know which I would be doing.


  • #34
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,392 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    mickdw wrote: »
    Or it could be twice the value of the car due.
    The OP didnt just go in screaming for money back when they saw the report. They went into dealer. If at this time the dealer had checked it out or got confirmation that it was clear or did anything to show that the finance would be clear in a matter of days or whatever, the OP would most likely have gone with it. But the way the dealer behaved, the OP had a choice.... Take the car with finance owning & be none the wiser as to whether the dealer was going to clear it at some time although unlikely as he said there was no finance owing, or get money back. I know which I would be doing.

    Have to agree 100% on this. An honest mistake is an honest mistake and being up front about it will probably result in forgiveness. Attempting to cover it up or just brush it aside on the other hand just undermines your integtrity, why would a customer want to colse a deal in those circumstances?


  • #35
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    How do you know that the dealer is trying to hide the fact finance is due?

    Its unreasonable to make this assumption when you dont know.

    Its possible someone traded down and stiffed the dealer. They now have a replacement car with no finance on it. The dealer should have done the checks.

    The OP is correct, he should not collect the car until someone pays the finance due. If he takes it out of the garage, then its out of site - out of mind.

    Do not collect it until its sorted. Then take it away. There is no reason to cancel the sale altogether unless it drags on.


  • #36
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    Anan1 wrote: »
    I'm not really sure why you would be entitled to (or want to) cancel the contract and be repaid in full if the finance was going to be settled?

    Of course he was entitled, in effect the dealer doesnt own the car to sell it
    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    It sounds to me as if you dont know all of the facts involved here, and you are just spouting random sh1te.

    Op, if the finance was going to be settled, why not offer to pick up the car at a later date, rather than pulling out of the sale? FWIW, I think the dealer is entitled to keep your deposit.

    And what has the OP to go? the word of someone who has either deliberately misrepresented or is incompetent enough not to be aware of outstanding finance? either way the OP could end up out of pocket. I wouldnt rely on their word, would you? The dealer ****ed up, if he went as far as to make accusations then I would want my deposit back on that alone, wont be faulted for someone else incompetence or is it deliberate?
    I dont know, but its not my problem, thats the dealers job
    Bobo78 wrote: »
    [/B]

    :rolleyes:
    Anan1 wrote: »
    If the dealer sorts out the finance then why would the customer be entitled to cancel the contract without penalty?

    Too late for that, should have been done before the OP found out about it themself


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  • #37
    Stoolbend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Stoolbend


    We don't really know what way the OP or the dealer reacted. We only have the OPs version of it. They started this thread and haven't been back since!


  • #38
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    I wouldn't go through with the purchase.

    If the dealer and his team are so incompetant that they have bought a car from someone who didn't even own it , then what confidence could you a buyer have that they do anything else to a businesslike standard? Have they preped it properly before sale? Given they manager's attitude could you trust his integrity if warranty issues arise? I would have serious doubts on that.

    Get a solictor, get your money back and buy from a "professionally competant" dealer.


  • #39
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    barry81 wrote: »
    Is it not possible that maybe the dealer hadn't got around to checking the car yet?

    Can you not make a mistake anymore without everyone assuming that there was a hidden agenda!

    true but outstanding finance sets alarm bells ringing, if there was outstanding finance then the dealer should have known about it,
    If they did know and sold it on then they cant be trusted, what else might they have misrepresented about the car, is that fraud? or what is it when you sell something you dont own.
    If they didnt then they are incompetent, what else are they incompetent about.


  • #40
    falabo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭falabo


    Once the finance issue was sorted you could've bought the car I think. But I totally understand your decision at the same time. But even so, I think the mistake is theirs. It is a seller's responsibility to KNOW what it is that they are selling; they CANNOT disclaim knowledge of their product. They are the experts. Unfortunately the jackass that is the Law does not adequately protect us from this sort of activity you've encountered.

    At the moment I'm waiting for the 'finance' on a car I am going to buy to clear. I refuse to pick it up until this issue is resolved and I have a statement of this on paper. The car itself is perfect, but this has to be sorted out first.

    I saw the car a week ago on Friday and quickly realised it was exactly what I was looking for. On Friday evening, having decided this as the right model for me, I paid for a full MotorCheck. The MotorCheck results gave me an almost perfect result, with the unfortunate exception of some outstanding finance. So, I returned to the dealer on Saturday and showed him a print out of the results. The dealer seems honest and has been very helpful and upfront about everything. He says that he had the car on his premises 2 days when I first saw it, which the ad on Carzone confirmed, so he said he wasn't alarmed as the previous owner was still probably arranging that finance be cleared. I told him I wanted to hold it but that I was only going to complete the sale on the proviso that he performed all of the servicing, timing belt work etc that was agreed and that the finance issue is resolved.

    The dealer also undertook to return that deposit if I should have any further concerns or if this issue couldn't be resolved quickly. I feel a finance issue is only a concern as long as it remains outstanding. Some people might think a car being traded in against another at a dealer shouldn't have any finance outstanding anyway but then again I'm trading my car in and I've had to clear my finance before I do so. So it could easily happen I'm sure. But I do think the onus should be on the dealer to ensure they are not taking a car in that is such a liability for any prospective owners.

    On Monday Motorcheck called me to inform me that the finance is still outstanding. On Wednesday I called them and they informed me that the Bank in question had now received a settlement cheque but that they did not expect it to clear until the end of next week (longest clearing time in the history of banking). That will make it two weeks since I placed my deposit, but luckily I am not in a hurry to change cars. I don't need to, I just want to. I will wait.

    Just to show what you can learn from these checks here are some of my experiences from the few I have done.

    Car A with "two owners" showed up as having had one owner? (It was his sister's car and she gave it to him when she went to Australia and he reregistered it. I've heard this same story or variations of it a few times now). It had also been advertised as a private sale. A google check of the seller's phone number revealed it was linked to a used car dealer in Dublin.

    Car B with 38,800 miles showed up on MotorCheck as having 97,847 miles. It was in immaculate condition but showed up as untaxed for period of 81 weeks. Costing €7,000 it showed up with outstanding finance of almost €6,000. Seller refused to clear finance until I paid for it. (I also googled the seller's phone number and found it too was linked to a (different) main dealer of that brand of car in Dublin). Needless to say, I walked away. Unfortunately the car check company later contacted me to tell me there had been a mistake and that the mileage they stated was not definite, but that car had such a chequered history, I could not have bought it with any confidence. MotorCheck refunded me and gave me a free check should I need it.

    I used the free check that MotorCheck gave me for the car I eventually bought. Everything checked out and it had an amazingly comprehensive and full service history, every receipt was included. I bought it on first inspection and it's never missed a beat.

    My advice to anyone in the market for a second hand car is to pay for a MotorCheck/CarTell/MyWheels report on the car once you're sure it's the one for you. Just don't do it for every car you see, narrow it down to one or two cars and choose based on the better results, or choose THE car and then get the report for just one car. You might get a perfect result confirming the car is ideal, or you might find out it is a motorised nightmare. Having bought a real peach the first time I relied on this service I will never buy a car without using this ever again.

    €35 is very little money to pay for two and a half years of peace of mind.


  • #41
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    username123 wrote: »

    So I bought a car.

    Discovered finance outstanding.
    Phoned dealership on thursday, told salesman Id found finance outstanding. he went to investigate and phoned me 2 hours later stating that there WAS outstanding finance on the car, but that he had spoken to the previous owner, and it was going to be settled that day.
    He still wanted me to collect the car at 5pm (on the basis of that nice verbal contract that finance would be sorted).
    I refused to collect car, said I wanted to see documentation from loaning institution that finance was settled on car. He hummed and hawed, said he would phone me back.

    Later that day. I had a chance to think about things and decided I wasnt happy with state of affairs. Phoned consumer connect who assure me I am entitled to full refund as goods misrepresented to me. No call back from dealership so I called to them myself later that evening. Salesman more or less made me out to be an idiot for even considering outstanding finance was an issue. Told me to deal with manager next morning.

    Circular conversation where he just keeps repeating that there is no finance outstanding on car and i repeat that there WAS until I brought it to his attention.

    Eventually he agrees to give me back monies but that he is keeping the deposit.
    Says that I am cancelling contract for no good reason and he is entitled to keep deposit. Consumer connect say different. I now have option of small claims court, SIMI complaint process and/or solicitor. A lot of hassle basically.

    So you were happy with the car, happy with the price, entered a contract and then wanted to unilaterally cancel said contract because a problem arose with paperwork, which the dealer subsequently rectified.
    And now you're moaning because he's retaining your deposit.
    What is your ideal outcome?
    Bear in mind that the dealer has also put time, effort and money into the transaction. The dealership resolved the issue with the finance so you should have gone through with the sale.
    Oh, and HPI is not infallible either.

    Sometimes it's a case of dealer beware.
    As far as I can see it, you have no recourse to consumer law as they did not misrepresent the goods, did not attempt to defraud you and you freely entered into a contract to buy the car.


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  • #42
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    So you were happy with the car, happy with the price, entered a contract and then wanted to unilaterally cancel said contract because a problem arose with paperwork, which the dealer subsequently rectified.
    And now you're moaning because he's retaining your deposit.
    What is your ideal outcome?
    Bear in mind that the dealer has also put time, effort and money into the transaction. The dealership resolved the issue with the finance so you should have gone through with the sale.
    Oh, and HPI is not infallible either.

    Sometimes it's a case of dealer beware.
    As far as I can see it, you have no recourse to consumer law as they did not misrepresent the goods, did not attempt to defraud you and you freely entered into a contract to buy the car.

    I dont think that is how it sounded to me, he didnt want to unilaterally cancel the agreement just because of a problem with the paperwork, there could be thousands outstanding on that car, instead of the dealer being problematic, fobbing off and blaming the OP perhaps he could have tried to deal with it and the sale would have went through,
    and the OP hasn't done anything wrong that disbars them from utilising consumer law.
    Did they say the dealer resolved the issue? apparently the OP said the dealer denied there was outstanding finance, if the dealer was genuinly unaware of the finance then ignorance of that fact doesnt suddenly make the dealer right, Im sure the dealer cant technically sell the car if there is outstanding finance as it belongs to someone else (finance company)


  • #43
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    Likewise the dealer hasn't done anything that would give the buyer recourse to consumer law.
    As long as the goods were as described and fit for purpose then consumer law doesn't come into play.


  • #44
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    That doesnt answer, how can the dealer sell the car if it doesnt belong to them.
    The OP didnt just change their mind, the dealer declined that there was outstanding finance on the vehicle, fobbing off and faulting the OP
    If they knowingly or unknowingly mislead the consumer about the product then they are entitled to their deposit back


  • #45
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    The finance WAS cleared in the end.
    So, after that was rectified the OP should have gone through with the deal.
    If the OP goes to court the dealership will claim honest mistake.
    The OP broke the contract by pulling out of the deal. Bear in mind that this has been a lot of hassle for the dealership too.


  • #46
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    The finance WAS cleared in the end.
    So, after that was rectified the OP should have gone through with the deal.
    If the OP goes to court the dealership will claim honest mistake.
    The OP broke the contract by pulling out of the deal. Bear in mind that this has been a lot of hassle for the dealership too.

    It doesnt say it was cleared in the end in the post does it? if it does can you point it out to me


  • #47
    Stoolbend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Stoolbend


    Merch wrote: »
    It doesnt say it was cleared in the end in the post does it? if it does can you point it out to me

    It doesn't say it wasn't!


  • #48
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    username123 wrote: »
    Circular conversation where he just keeps repeating that there is no finance outstanding on car and i repeat that there WAS until I brought it to his attention.

    I understand this to mean that the dealership sorted things out but didn't have a time machine to create the set of circumstances where the OP would be happy to go through with the deal. Hence "circular" conversation.


  • #49
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    The finance WAS cleared in the end.
    So, after that was rectified the OP should have gone through with the deal.
    If the OP goes to court the dealership will claim honest mistake.
    The OP broke the contract by pulling out of the deal. Bear in mind that this has been a lot of hassle for the dealership too.


    From the information available, it doesnt look like the finance was cleared, the OP would need to come on and confirm that, I would assume this is under 2000 and would go the small claims court route or get information off consumer rights to see how best to proceed.
    So the OP could have bought a car that was not owned by the dealer (perhaps the dealer got stung) but compounding that by selling it on knowingly or through not checking the finance history of the car and then blaming the OP doesnt help their situation.

    Perhaps if the dealer had handled it in a more consumer friendly manner then the OP might have followed through with the purchase, as it looks from the post the dealer was not going to do anything and once the car was gone I find it unlikely they would follow it up in a hurry.Why should the OP take the chance that the finance company will reposess the car?? on the word of the dealer, would a dealer let someone drive off without clearing a cheque or draft?


  • #50
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    barry81 wrote: »
    It doesn't say it wasn't!

    Thats true but given the issue was outstanding finance until it is specifically mentioned that the finance was sorted in the end, which is the crux of the whole post to me, then until it is mentioned, it appears more that it isn't, it is something the OP would have to clarify


  • #51
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    I understand this to mean that the dealership sorted things out but didn't have a time machine to create the set of circumstances where the OP would be happy to go through with the deal. Hence "circular" conversation.


    I interpret circular conversation as the OP said there was outstanding finance and the dealer kept deny it and they kept going around and around


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  • #52
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    Did you read my reply quoting the OP.

    Jeebus, this is turning into a "circular conversation" as well.

    OP discovered finance outstanding, dealership sorted it and OP still didn't want to go through with the deal.


  • #53
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    Merch wrote: »
    I interpret circular conversation as the OP said there was outstanding finance and the dealer kept deny it and they kept going around and around

    So you reckon the manager in a main dealership flat-out lied that the finance had been cleared?
    I reckon it kept going around and around because the OP was so far up on his high horse that he couldn't hear what was being said, seem familiar?


  • #54
    Stoolbend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Stoolbend


    kazul wrote: »

    Jeebus, this is turning into a "circular conversation" as well.


    Exactly. :)

    The OP could do with giving us an update!


  • #55
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    Did you read my reply quoting the OP.

    Jeebus, this is turning into a "circular conversation" as well.

    OP discovered finance outstanding, dealership sorted it and OP still didn't want to go through with the deal.

    I did read it! I said I interpet it means I dont see it the way you do, In my experience a circular argument is one that goes nowhere, the re is no suggestion in the OPS post at the time of mentioning a circular argument that the dealer sorted anything out, you need to read the OP


  • #56
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    So you reckon the manager in a main dealership flat-out lied that the finance had been cleared?
    I reckon it kept going around and around because the OP was so far up on his high horse that he couldn't hear what was being said, seem familiar?


    You're making a big assumption, really quite big, unless you were present at the conversation, I know I wasnt and Im assuming you weren't either.

    going on the info received I would say the dealer is in the wrong

    How can u even suggest the OP was far up on his high horse and why would it seem familiar, this is a discussion if you're getting annoyed about it why bother responding?
    I'm going on the info in the post, like someone else said perhaps the IOP can clarify


  • #57
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    The OP clearly wrote in capital letters that there WAS, past tense, finance owing on the car until he brought it to the dealership's attention.


  • #58
    kazul
    Closed Accounts Posts: 645 ✭✭✭kazul


    Merch wrote: »
    You're making a big assumption, really quite big, unless you were present at the conversation, I know I wasnt and Im assuming you weren't either.

    going on the info received I would say the dealer is in the wrong

    How can u even suggest the OP was far up on his high horse and why would it seem familiar, this is a discussion if you're getting annoyed about it why bother responding?
    I'm going on the info in the post, like someone else said perhaps the IOP can clarify

    In that case you are making equally big assumptions, the only difference being that you are assuming that the OP is right and the dealership is wrong.
    I know there are good and bad in the motor trade but consumers always tend to fear the worst and think somebody is ripping them off, both with sales and service.
    Ireland seems particularly bad for this, the garage is always the bogeyman and can never be right.


  • #59
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    The OP clearly wrote in capital letters that there WAS, past tense, finance owing on the car until he brought it to the dealership's attention.

    It does say that, but thats what the dealer said, perhaps it was cleared by the time this all occured but I didnt see it specifically mentioned and like another poster said the OP would need to clarify that,

    I wouldnt take a car unless I had complete clarification that there was no finance outstanding especially as they missed it the first time around, if it was still outstanding or some plan to sort it out by the time the OP turned up then I would no longer want to deal with them.

    If they hadnt missed this in the first place this wouldnt have come up, maybe they knew and thought it would be sorted by the time the sale was done or maybe they just didnt know, but either way that doesnt make them look very competent.


  • #60
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Merch


    kazul wrote: »
    In that case you are making equally big assumptions, the only difference being that you are assuming that the OP is right and the dealership is wrong.
    I know there are good and bad in the motor trade but consumers always tend to fear the worst and think somebody is ripping them off, both with sales and service.
    Ireland seems particularly bad for this, the garage is always the bogeyman and can never be right.

    Im sure not every dealer is unscrupulous , but selling a car with outstanding finance ? and have the purchaser drive it away? who owns the car? a finance company surely until it is paid in full wether thats 100 euro or 10000.
    So how can they sell something they dont own?


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  • #61
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,737 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    kazul wrote: »
    The finance WAS cleared in the end.
    So, after that was rectified the OP should have gone through with the deal.
    If the OP goes to court the dealership will claim honest mistake.
    The OP broke the contract by pulling out of the deal. Bear in mind that this has been a lot of hassle for the dealership too.

    claiming 'honest mistake' isn't something that has any meaning in court. As for 'hassle' for the dealership they sold him a car with outstanding finance, if he hadn't checked up on it who knows what would have happened. Generally trying to defraud a purchaser will cause you a bit of 'hassle'.

    Presumably he wants nothing to do with the dealer, who knows what else they've hidden about the car, or not bothered to check out? At the time of the sale the dealer had misrepresented the goods, which weren't theirs to sell and he is entitled to a full refund.


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