Main dealer sold me car with outstanding finance

kazul

Did you read my reply quoting the OP.

Jeebus, this is turning into a "circular conversation" as well.

OP discovered finance outstanding, dealership sorted it and OP still didn't want to go through with the deal.

kazul

Merch wrote: »

I interpret circular conversation as the OP said there was outstanding finance and the dealer kept deny it and they kept going around and around

So you reckon the manager in a main dealership flat-out lied that the finance had been cleared?
I reckon it kept going around and around because the OP was so far up on his high horse that he couldn't hear what was being said, seem familiar?

Stoolbend

kazul wrote: »

Jeebus, this is turning into a "circular conversation" as well.

Exactly.

The OP could do with giving us an update!

Merch

kazul wrote: »

Did you read my reply quoting the OP.

Jeebus, this is turning into a "circular conversation" as well.

OP discovered finance outstanding, dealership sorted it and OP still didn't want to go through with the deal.

I did read it! I said I interpet it means I dont see it the way you do, In my experience a circular argument is one that goes nowhere, the re is no suggestion in the OPS post at the time of mentioning a circular argument that the dealer sorted anything out, you need to read the OP

Merch

kazul wrote: »

So you reckon the manager in a main dealership flat-out lied that the finance had been cleared?
I reckon it kept going around and around because the OP was so far up on his high horse that he couldn't hear what was being said, seem familiar?

You're making a big assumption, really quite big, unless you were present at the conversation, I know I wasnt and Im assuming you weren't either.

going on the info received I would say the dealer is in the wrong

How can u even suggest the OP was far up on his high horse and why would it seem familiar, this is a discussion if you're getting annoyed about it why bother responding?
I'm going on the info in the post, like someone else said perhaps the IOP can clarify

kazul

The OP clearly wrote in capital letters that there WAS, past tense, finance owing on the car until he brought it to the dealership's attention.

kazul

Merch wrote: »

You're making a big assumption, really quite big, unless you were present at the conversation, I know I wasnt and Im assuming you weren't either.

going on the info received I would say the dealer is in the wrong

How can u even suggest the OP was far up on his high horse and why would it seem familiar, this is a discussion if you're getting annoyed about it why bother responding?
I'm going on the info in the post, like someone else said perhaps the IOP can clarify

In that case you are making equally big assumptions, the only difference being that you are assuming that the OP is right and the dealership is wrong.
I know there are good and bad in the motor trade but consumers always tend to fear the worst and think somebody is ripping them off, both with sales and service.
Ireland seems particularly bad for this, the garage is always the bogeyman and can never be right.

Merch

kazul wrote: »

The OP clearly wrote in capital letters that there WAS, past tense, finance owing on the car until he brought it to the dealership's attention.

It does say that, but thats what the dealer said, perhaps it was cleared by the time this all occured but I didnt see it specifically mentioned and like another poster said the OP would need to clarify that,

I wouldnt take a car unless I had complete clarification that there was no finance outstanding especially as they missed it the first time around, if it was still outstanding or some plan to sort it out by the time the OP turned up then I would no longer want to deal with them.

If they hadnt missed this in the first place this wouldnt have come up, maybe they knew and thought it would be sorted by the time the sale was done or maybe they just didnt know, but either way that doesnt make them look very competent.

Merch

kazul wrote: »

In that case you are making equally big assumptions, the only difference being that you are assuming that the OP is right and the dealership is wrong.
I know there are good and bad in the motor trade but consumers always tend to fear the worst and think somebody is ripping them off, both with sales and service.
Ireland seems particularly bad for this, the garage is always the bogeyman and can never be right.

Im sure not every dealer is unscrupulous , but selling a car with outstanding finance ? and have the purchaser drive it away? who owns the car? a finance company surely until it is paid in full wether thats 100 euro or 10000.
So how can they sell something they dont own?

copacetic

kazul wrote: »

The finance WAS cleared in the end.
So, after that was rectified the OP should have gone through with the deal.
If the OP goes to court the dealership will claim honest mistake.
The OP broke the contract by pulling out of the deal. Bear in mind that this has been a lot of hassle for the dealership too.

claiming 'honest mistake' isn't something that has any meaning in court. As for 'hassle' for the dealership they sold him a car with outstanding finance, if he hadn't checked up on it who knows what would have happened. Generally trying to defraud a purchaser will cause you a bit of 'hassle'.

Presumably he wants nothing to do with the dealer, who knows what else they've hidden about the car, or not bothered to check out? At the time of the sale the dealer had misrepresented the goods, which weren't theirs to sell and he is entitled to a full refund.

Merch

At the end of the day,
If the finance wasnt sorted out I would not want to take the car

After all the hassle of proving there was finance outstanding, even if it was being resolved in the end I think I would have lost all faith in that dealer and really wouldnt want to have anything to do with them either, they would have only proven to me that if the car had problems they would have fobbed me off.

I have no doubt there are customers who are difficult, but the dealer should know their own business and consumer laws are to protect the customer from poor service and am sure protect the dealer by not allowing customers to exceed their rights too.

I think the dealer lost the sale through poor customer service and maybe incompetence (isay incompetence as I am not jumping to the conclusion it was intentional)

username123

OP here.

There was only ever a verbal that the finance was sorted. I asked for paperwork to prove it and was told to collect the car and paperwork would follow when they could get it.

When I spoke to the manager on Friday morning I was still willing to go ahead with the purchase, if finance was sorted and he was open about the situation - his salesman had verbally comfirmed to me the previous evening that a mistake had been made by the dealership and the finance issue should have been spotted by them and not brought to their attention by me.

When I spoke to manager on friday morning he started the conversation on the offensive and never once admitted to me that there had been a mistake and instead made out that I was some kind of thicko who didnt understand cars deals, plus he told me that there would have been no liability on me had I taken the car as it would have come back on them if it had popped up months later. I pointed out that SIMI website specifically states that the liability DOES fall on the purchaser if they drive away in a car with outstanding finance - he flatly denied this to be true and began to philosophise about 'what is a website really? Different people have different intereptations of what information actually is'.
He also claimed that the finance had been in the process of being settled by his administration people and the date of settlement would show as the previous week or perhaps the monday of that week whenever he got the paperwork.

If his attitude had been a bit more consumer friendly I may have still considered going ahead with the deal. But I lost faith in the dealership as a whole at this point - plus there was still no paperwork to prove finance had been settled.
I also do not appreciate being shouted at for 30 minutes by someone I am considering doing business with. The guy lost the deal over a combination of unprofessional business practice and bad attitude.

After my original post, I had a missed call from the dealership. I called back and he said he now had the paperwork. I asked him what the settlement date on the finance was. It was the thursday. So I was proven correct - the finance wouldnt have been settled by the time I drove the car away if I hadnt brought it up. Plus, it definitely proved that the finance was outstanding at point of sale - the car was not the dealerships to sell - which is an offence.

To my mind, deal is off. He has made a big deal about how he cant get my money back for me (less deposit) for a few days now, the end of next week - probably (his words). He is adamant he is keeping the deposit.

At this point, whether or not I get the deposit back, the peace of mind is worth more to me.

I could have driven off in a car that could have been legally repossessed from me.

The managers attitude was so bad that I have to question how much satisfaction you would get from this dealership if you had to go back with a problem with the car.

I also feel that if they deal with someone so unprofessionally at point of sale - what are they going to be like during the period of the warranty?

Its a vote of no confidence on all of the above for me. I just couldnt go ahead with the deal under these circumstances.

For the posters here who think the garage was trying to chance their arm - I actually believe a genuine mistake was made. But how that mistake was dealt with was unacceptable to me and only compounded a bad situation and made it worse.

irishhigh

username123 wrote: »

So I bought a car. Paid deposit on saturday, paid balance on monday, couldnt collect car til thursday. Main dealer so i thought no problems but something told me to check finance anyway.

Did so. Discovered finance outstanding. Phoned dealership on thursday, told salesman Id found finance outstanding. His first words were 'there is no finance outstanding on that car?!?!?'. I assured him there was, he went to investigate and phoned me 2 hours later stating that there WAS outstanding finance on the car, but that he had spoken to the previous owner, and it was going to be settled that day. He still wanted me to collect the car at 5pm (on the basis of that nice verbal contract that finance would be sorted). I refused to collect car, said I wanted to see documentation from loaning institution that finance was settled on car. He hummed and hawed, said he would phone me back.

Later that day. I had a chance to think about things and decided I wasnt happy with state of affairs. Phoned consumer connect who assure me I am entitled to full refund as goods misrepresented to me. No call back from dealership so I called to them myself later that evening. Salesman more or less made me out to be an idiot for even considering outstanding finance was an issue. Told me to deal with manager next morning.

This morning. I phone manager and tell him i am not happy with situation and want to cancel deal and have full refund. I am then subjected to 30 minutes of what can only be described as brow beating, he accused me of having an ulterior motive, said Im unreasonable, said there was no problem, no finance outstanding on car. I pointed out finance was outstanding when car sold to me, and Id paid in full and finance issue only addressed because I brought it up. Refused to listen to anything I said. Circular conversation where he just keeps repeating that there is no finance outstanding on car and i repeat that there WAS until I brought it to his attention. Besides general bad attitude he also directly contradicted SIMI consumer documention claiming liability would not have fallen on me, this is normal practice, these 'websites or whatever' that I got my information from are wrong etc...etc....

Eventually he agrees to give me back monies but that he is keeping the deposit. Says that I am cancelling contract for no good reason and he is entitled to keep deposit. Consumer connect say different. I now have option of small claims court, SIMI complaint process and/or solicitor. A lot of hassle basically.

Anyone experienced similar - what was outcome?

Yeah some cowboy in Swords Co.Dublin (A dealership) sold me a second hand car. It kept breaking down and when i brought it back he was replacing the broken parts with secondhand scrap parts or telling me the car was not broken it just needed this and that done! the car kept breaking down. I was able to prove that he was doing this.He refused to take the car back and give me back my €4,000, so I brought him to the small claims court (only cost €6 to regisiter my case) and I was awarded the max amount you can claim €5,000, Because I could prove that he was giving me the run around that he was making the car unsafe to drive. Never again would I ever buy a second hand car.

MagicMarker

irishhigh wrote: »

Never again would I ever buy a second hand car.

That's fairly stupid tbh.

Anan1

username123 wrote: »

For the posters here who think the garage was trying to chance their arm - I actually believe a genuine mistake was made. But how that mistake was dealt with was unacceptable to me and only compounded a bad situation and made it worse.

I can completely sympathise with this viewpoint, and it would put me off a garage too. On the other hand, I still can't see how, given that the finance has been sorted, you can legally get your deposit back. If I were in your position, i'd consider a few things. How much deposit did you pay? How much were you paying for the car? Were you happy with the overall price? Were you happy with the car? Did you do do ALL the checks on the car? Did you verify the service history? Only you can decide whether it's better to forefeit the deposit or go through with the deal, but I would recommend thinking it through in a structured and rational way, trying to put your (justifiable) emotions aside. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Merch

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's fairly stupid tbh.

I'd say its unreasonable for you to say this is stupid, while I dont agree that all or even most second hand cars are a nightmare waiting to happen or that all dealers are con artists, this person has obviously been stung and even if they are only one in a hundred with this opinion, its still their opinion and is valid.
I think there are plenty of good second hand cars but what I have seen some people do (or not do as the case may be) to their cars makes me nearly prefer to buy new and drive it for ages while keeping it in as good condition as possible. I still think there is plenty to be wary about when buying any car and it is best if the buyer keeps themselves as well informed as possible.
Perhaps if it was possible to access the NCT details of all cars in the future or get a printout of all tests in one sheet format which dealers and private sellers could request, surely this would benefit the trade by building confidence in the public and the public by providing more information and possibly some piece of mind?

falabo

Merch wrote: »

Perhaps if it was possible to access the NCT details of all cars in the future or get a printout of all tests in one sheet format which dealers and private sellers could request, surely this would benefit the trade by building confidence in the public and the public by providing more information and possibly some piece of mind?

All SIMI registered dealers have a similar facility at their fingertips already:

http://www.carhistorycheck.ie/

Some advertise the availability of the report, to show the car is genuine, on their ads. Other's plead ignorance about anything untoward that you might uncover with a car check of your own despite having the option.

It just goes to show what little use that particular organisation actually is when there is so little regulation and it seems consistency, across the board.

runawaybishop

irishhigh wrote: »

Yeah some cowboy in Swords Co.Dublin (A dealership) sold me a second hand car. It kept breaking down and when i brought it back he was replacing the broken parts with secondhand scrap parts or telling me the car was not broken it just needed this and that done! the car kept breaking down. I was able to prove that he was doing this.He refused to take the car back and give me back my €4,000, so I brought him to the small claims court (only cost €6 to regisiter my case) and I was awarded the max amount you can claim €5,000, Because I could prove that he was giving me the run around that he was making the car unsafe to drive. Never again would I ever buy a second hand car.

What a minute here - The information does not match with what i see on the citizens information website

It costs 15 euro to lodge a claim, not 6 and the max you can be awarded is 2000 euro

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html


To OP - smalls claims court will not assist you in retrieving your deposit, as they view it as a debt which is not something they deal with. I've have literally got off the phone to them a couple hours ago as i am also trying to retrieve a deposit for goods that never arrived. Seems a solicitor is the way to go if yo cant sort it with them directly.

-Chris-

It's over a year ago since the OP started the thread. I'm sure your advice is of little use to them at this stage.

Please don't bump old threads. Thread closed.

-Chris-

Thread reopened for update from username123

username123

Op here.
Just thought Id update the thread with the final outcome in case it helps anyone who finds themselves in the same situation.

The dealership guy gavve me my money back - minus the deposit and more or less aggressively told me that he would 'see me in court' if I wanted to persue it and that there was no way I was entitled to get the deposit back.

I went to a solicitor, solicitor said there was no way that the contract was valid and that dealership would have to pay me back deposit. Told me that courts look very unfavourably on situations like this as the dates clearly show that that the finance was not settled even after I had paid full amount. (I had the dated email of the finance check and the dated receipt of the full amount Id paid to dealership).

Solicitor wrote 2 letters to dealership saying 'give back the deposit or we will initiate legal proceedings'. Both letters ignored.

Solicitor booked court date and summonsed the dealership to court, intending to sue for deposit plus costs and damages.

The day before the court date a cheque arrived to the solicitors for the full amount of deposit.

I hope that helps someone else.

copacetic

thanks for the update and well done.

mondeo

Sensational

quad_red

Well done OP.

Care to name the dealership so others can be steer clear?

newmug

Who paid for your solicitor? The garage should have seeing as they caused all the hassle in the first place. Also NAME AND SHAME

username123

newmug wrote: »

Who paid for your solicitor? The garage should have seeing as they caused all the hassle in the first place. Also NAME AND SHAME

Thats the only piece outstanding, solicitor said when the deposit cheque arrived that he was still going to go after them for costs.

Havent heard back since, deposit only back with me since before xmas, but I may be paying the cost of 2 letters and booking court date - it wont be much, tbh its worth it just to have been proven correct to chase the dealership and get what I was entitled to.

I will name and shame if mods indicate that it is ok to do so.

-Chris-

If you're happy that you can back it up with documentation if I get an angry email from the garage claiming defamation, go for it.

username123

I can back it up alright. Its not defamation or libelous if its true - I checked with the solicitor if it was ok to name online a while back as I posted about it on my FB page - apparently its ok, all they could do is ask for it to be removed.

It was Tallaght Ford, Airton Road. I never had any previous dealings with them, and obviously after that situation, I never will again.

BigEejit

Thanks for naming and shaming, I hope we don't hear about any more of their victims.

Todd Gack

Lovely work OP, fair play for not letting the thieves get away with it and the heads up on them. Best of luck with getting the costs back.

catspajamas

Well done OP for standing up to the dealer & getting a result

and also for educating the rest of us on our rights for future deals

all in all great work

Mc Love

Aside from going off on a completely other direction firstly well done, and if we had more people like the OP the country wouldnt be in the state it is now.

Good to see the dealer back off and pay up considering the bullish attitude they had to the OP