What is the fate of the Mark 3's?

Judgement Day

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Well theres little any of us can do when we've gone to out enternal reward! Thanks for the link. Great to see that, a local business man following his dream and putting something there for the community. Who knows it might bring some of the passing tourist trade in. Fair play to him, not something to be knocked.

You make it sound like he owns the local corner shop! Lol!:pac::pac::pac:

Transportuser09

Judgement Day wrote: »

You make it sound like he owns the local corner shop! Lol!:pac::pac::pac:

Do I? I just meant he has used his own resources to effectively create a new tourist attraction for his area.

dowlingm

That photo of the Mk3 trial enrages me and I only wish the Times would send Kathy Sheridan (see the WRC thread) on that charter to ask the IE worthies how much revenue was received for the charter and how much was spent assembling this set, cleaning them up and running the trial pictured.

Only in Ireland would we celebrate the ending of an era (and by railway standards not all that long, compared to what Amtrak still operates from the 1950s) by sending the carriages to random parts of the country (like some of the pushpulls) as opposed to a National Museum and the rest to an appointment with a JCB to whack them into flinders.

If Enterprise was removed from IE/NIR into a separate company run by the likes of Virgin Trains with its own capital and ability to borrow, I would expect 4-6 sets of those 3s would be running between Dublin and Belfast on an hourly basis not long after. Instead the two biggest cities on the island are linked by an orphan fleet of DeDietrichs frequently substituted by commuter railcars, because IE/NIR can only grudgingly agree on which either of them have enough money to pay for minor improvements like adding a generator van from those self-same 3s.

return ticket

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Well theres little any of us can do when we've gone to out enternal reward! Thanks for the link. Great to see that, a local business man following his dream and putting something there for the community. Who knows it might bring some of the passing tourist trade in. Fair play to him, not something to be knocked.

Here here.

lord lucan

Judgement Day wrote: »

Moyasta is run as a private fiefdom by local quarry tycoon Jackie Whelan more info here: http://daithaic.blogspot.com/2009/09/on-west-clare-railway.html

Quite what will become of this 'enterprise' when the good Jackie goes to his final reward is anyones guess.

Is this Jackie Whelan on the look out for an 071 for Moyasta at 0:56?:p

Judgement Day

Wouldn't be in the least surprised,he might as well go the full hog while he is at it!

Oliver1985

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irish-rail-company-eireann--looking-to-offload-iconic-intercity-trains-14918542.html

Run_to_da_hills

Oliver1985 wrote: »

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irish-rail-company-eireann--looking-to-offload-iconic-intercity-trains-14918542.html

Belfast Telagraph. wrote:

These were phased out in recent years as our new fleet came in," he said. "The last run was in November last year. They are air-conditioned, but they don't have the modern comfort standards passengers expect.

Like rocking from side to side.

That username is already in use.

lord lucan wrote: »

Is this Jackie Whelan on the look out for an 071 for Moyasta at 0:56?:p

Jaysus, I think you´re right!

I also noticed that Irish spelling on the platform is correct... :pac:

L1011

The Mark III passenger trains first entered service in 1972, and were used across the network until just 10 months ago.

Did they now? Erm...

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

Did they now? Erm...

I noticed that but didn't comment. Mixed them up with the Mk2s obviously.

goingnowhere

First Mk3 coach rolled out of Derby in 1972

Cookie_Monster

goingnowhere wrote: »

First Mk3 coach rolled out of Derby in 1972

first BR Mk3 was 1975
first IE Mk3 was 1984

goingnowhere

So explain this, first was certainly 1972 and nearly all are still in service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_252

The oldest Irish Rail Mk3 dates from 1979

Cool Mo D

Is there a reason why Irish Rail never bought the HST power cars along with their mark 3s?

Cookie_Monster

goingnowhere wrote: »

So explain this, first was certainly 1972 and nearly all are still in service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_252

The oldest Irish Rail Mk3 dates from 1979

WIKIPEDIA wrote:

British Rail's third fundamental design of carriage was designated 'Mark 3' (also described as Mark III), and was developed primarily for the InterCity 125 High Speed Train (HST). The vehicle was also developed as a conventional locomotive-hauled coach for the West Coast Main Line (WCML) northern electrification scheme - this was the first Mark 3 derivative to enter revenue service, in 1975, with the definitive HST version appearing a year later

Explained

anyway its irrelivant as the Irish mk3 were no-where near this date and it's just more poor journalism

bad mongo

Interesting topic - I presiume this will be of relevance to posters (apologies if already mentioned in thread)

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG165575

IE has available for re-use, 82 hauled passenger coaches; the vehicles are fully air-conditioned and were built between 1984 and 1986. The fleet comprises of passenger cars, catering cars and generating vans for the provision of on-board powe

Cookie_Monster

bad mongo wrote: »

Interesting topic - I presiume this will be of relevance to posters (apologies if already mentioned in thread)

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG165575

IE has available for re-use, 82 hauled passenger coaches; the vehicles are fully air-conditioned and were built between 1984 and 1986. The fleet comprises of passenger cars, catering cars and generating vans for the provision of on-board powe

I posted a response to this on another forum. Basically IE say they are in too poor a state to run on Irish line and thats why they can't be used. But seem perfectly happy in that tender to not mention that fact at all, giving the impression to buyers that they are ready to run as it were.

I can't see anyone wanting these, wrong gauge for nearly everywhere, run down, in need of heavy enough work to bring back to standard if reports on here are to be believed and only to be sold as one lot, not broken up if people want fewer.

Jonathan

bad mongo wrote: »

Interesting topic - I presiume this will be of relevance to posters (apologies if already mentioned in thread)

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG165575

IE has available for re-use, 82 hauled passenger coaches; the vehicles are fully air-conditioned and were built between 1984 and 1986. The fleet comprises of passenger cars, catering cars and generating vans for the provision of on-board power

I thought they were keeping the generator vans for the Enterprise?

Cookie_Monster

Jonathan wrote: »

I thought they were keeping the generator vans for the Enterprise?

4 (iirc) kept for use the rest to be disposed of

L1011

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Is there a reason why Irish Rail never bought the HST power cars along with their mark 3s?

Finances and a network nowhere near suitable of the speeds the HST could offer I'd suspect. They also had a lot of relatively new diesel locos at the time already.

Rud

how much would it be to buy a single mk3 open coach without bogies?

Cookie_Monster

Rud wrote: »

how much would it be to buy a single mk3 open coach without bogies?

a few have been sold singularly, some hotel has bought some over the years. Now idea how much though. these are a job lot of 82 though.

flyingsnail

In today's Irish Times

IARNRÓD ÉIREANN may have to reintroduce a fleet of withdrawn inter-city carriages that are more than 20 years old as part of its long-stated goal of providing an hourly service on the Dublin to Belfast “Enterprise” service.

Full story here

Judgement Day

flyingsnail wrote: »

In today's Irish Times



Full story here

Unreal! The fact is that journey times on the Belfast route on now worse than they were 20 years ago and reliability has gone to hell. With a fleet of barely used MkIII carriages lying about in sidings there's no earthly way that CIE/IE should be allowed to waste more public money buying junk from the Far East - make do and mend should be the order of the day. :mad:

Cookie_Monster

flyingsnail wrote: »

In today's Irish Times

Full story here

good news, maybe. hopefully it'll actually happen

Oliver1985

The extra servies they introduce to make hourly should be Connolly non stop to Belfast and the current ones stay the same!!!

lord lucan

I don't see the need for an hourly service myself. Since the Malahide Viaduct collapse and with continued security alerts on the line the demand for the Enterprise has dropped dramatically. I've used it a few times this year and it's been poorly patronised. Journey time is too slow and it's quite expensive in comparison with the bus.

Of all the services in the country that could do with the spare MKIII's it's not the Enterprise imo. Stick them on the Galway roster where bus substitutions are becoming commonplace due to overcrowding on the Westport services.

mickydoomsux

Judgement Day wrote: »

Unreal! The fact is that journey times on the Belfast route on now worse than they were 20 years ago and reliability has gone to hell. With a fleet of barely used MkIII carriages lying about in sidings there's no earthly way that CIE/IE should be allowed to waste more public money buying junk from the Far East - make do and mend should be the order of the day. :mad:

Until a serious accident related to wear and tear happens.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Until a serious accident related to wear and tear happens.

serious accidents have already happened a few times due to wear and tear. several machinery derailments per year as well as practically destroying a new 6car 22000, as well as the malahide incident cahir viaduct etc

irish rail knows all about wear and tear but why would they pay it any special attention now?

Stonewolf

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Until a serious accident related to wear and tear happens.

The MkIIIs still have a good bit of life left in them, they were designed to operate for decades with occasional refits. Said refits are much cheaper than buying in new stock.

Cookie_Monster

Stonewolf wrote: »

The MkIIIs still have a good bit of life left in them, they were designed to operate for decades with occasional refits. Said refits are much cheaper than buying in new stock.

+1, just look at the UK stock

Victor

lord lucan wrote: »

I don't see the need for an hourly service myself. Since the Malahide Viaduct collapse and with continued security alerts on the line the demand for the Enterprise has dropped dramatically. I've used it a few times this year and it's been poorly patronised. Journey time is too slow and it's quite expensive in comparison with the bus.

Not hourly, not yet. But the existing timetable could do with being beefed up, e.g. arriving in each city before 9am. Running more services would mean you could have fewer stops per service. Of course, having the slots / passing ability is another matter.

Of all the services in the country that could do with the spare MKIII's it's not the Enterprise imo. Stick them on the Galway roster where bus substitutions are becoming commonplace due to overcrowding on the Westport services.

There is scope to have a few sets strategicly placed and/or others to cover peak duties.

Judgement Day

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Until a serious accident related to wear and tear happens.

In railway terms the MkIIIs have years of life left in them - I'm not suggesting they be dragged out of the sidings where they are 'dumped' and put back into service without overhaul. No private company could afford to waste scarce resources the way CIE/IE do, and you are cutting own throats by so doing as the day of reckoning is fast approaching for what's left of the semi-state sector.

mickydoomsux

Judgement Day wrote: »

....as the day of reckoning is fast approaching for what's left of the semi-state sector.

Still? It's been approaching for decades now

Stonewolf

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Still? It's been approaching for decades now

We're not there yet, but we're getting there ...

dowlingm

As I have said before, the big barrier is a rebuilding facility. Inchicore is gone. If you were to build one you'd need steady work from NIR and IE, maybe doing warranty work for CAF and ROTEM. Somewhere rail connected but with cheap land. Somewhere like Mullingar (connecting the Moate-Athlone track as a spur to the facility).

You could send them abroad but that's a hassle and no guarantee they won't be wrecked on the way back like the 22Ks.

By the way - the Information Minister tells the BT that

They are air-conditioned, but they don't have the modern comfort standards passengers expect.

"We've never done this before. In the past we ran them until they couldn't be run any more, apart from a couple which went to heritage railways."

but tells the IT

“We are examining both options currently to see how we can best deliver a quality hourly service.

Little Chief speak out of both sides of mouth again...

Judgement Day

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Still? It's been approaching for decades now

Wel they are coming for you - the household silver is long gone (Aer Lingus, the Irish Sugar Company, Telecom Eireann, Great Southern Hotels etc) and now its time for the odds and ends.

lord lucan

Victor wrote: »

Not hourly, not yet. But the existing timetable could do with being beefed up, e.g. arriving in each city before 9am. Running more services would mean you could have fewer stops per service. Of course, having the slots / passing ability is another matter.

That's a debate for another day but yeah,finding the room on the Northern Line is the great conundrum. Hourly services are only a pipe dream for the foreseeable future imo.

steamengine

Stonewolf wrote: »

We're not there yet, but we're getting there ...

.....A lot done, More to do - we shouldn't hold our breath re privatisation !

mickydoomsux

I genuinely don't see privatisation happening tbh.

If it does this forum will explode because a private operator will close half the lines in the country within 6 months of taking over :pac:

lord lucan

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I genuinely don't see privatisation happening tbh.

If it does this forum will explode because a private operator will close half the lines in the country within 6 months of taking over :pac:

Spot on. Outside of Dublin-Cork & Dublin-Belfast i can't see any private operator having any interest in any other line. The rest of the network would either close or still end up being Government run and subsidised to bits.

mickydoomsux

Well, the last time there was any real interest in a private company coming in was when Virgin wanted to buy the Cork-Dublin line in the 90's because it is the only really profitable one. Or so the story goes.

Think it'll be an all or nothing situation if it is going to happen. The network is too small in the grander scheme of things to be able to justify carving it into pieces.

corktina

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I genuinely don't see privatisation happening tbh.

If it does this forum will explode because a private operator will close half the lines in the country within 6 months of taking over :pac:

A private operator will only be an operator no doubt. The EU idea is to seperate ownership and maintenance of the railway from operating, so tenders would be sought for the less profitable lines which would include a subsidy payable to operate them where applicable.

Judgement Day

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Well, the last time there was any real interest in a private company coming in was when Virgin wanted to buy the Cork-Dublin line in the 90's because it is the only really profitable one. Or so the story goes.

Think it'll be an all or nothing situation if it is going to happen. The network is too small in the grander scheme of things to be able to justify carving it into pieces.

Well, given that it no longer serves any real purpose, outside the Greater Dublin area, it might as well be closed down. The money could be better spent on hospitals, schools, special needs assistants etc and as the late Todd Andrews said you could put the passengers on a few Greyhound buses.

mickydoomsux

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well, given that it no longer serves any real purpose, outside the Greater Dublin area, it might as well be closed down.

Yes. Nothing exists outside The Pale so why would anyone want to go anywhere outside of there :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Yes. Nothing exists outside The Pale so why would anyone want to go anywhere outside of there :rolleyes:

Buses and private cars? I live outside the Pale but now use the bus more than the train as it is more frequent, more comfy and considerably cheaper.

mickydoomsux

Judgement Day wrote: »

Buses and private cars? I live outside the Pale but now use the bus more than the train as it is more frequent, more comfy and considerably cheaper.

These things have existed for quite some time now and yet people still use the train. Amazing really.

My main reason for continuing to travel by train is comfort, I hate the claustrophobic "boxed in" feeling of buses.

Judgement Day

mickydoomsux wrote: »

These things have existed for quite some time now and yet people still use the train. Amazing really.

Now you hit the nail on the head - it truly is amazing that anybody uses the train anymore and certainly no thanks to CIE/IE. In case you didn't notice there was a serious decline in inter-city traffic last year - I'll post the link when I find it. Here: http://www.cie.ie/about_us/chairmans_statement.asp Numbers down 13% in 2009 and worse to come this year.

Yes, buses and cars have been about for quite some time now but have you noticed that there has been a massive improvement in the road network and rail journey times are no longer competitive?