Stoke City V Arsenal Match Thread. Live SS1

ErinGoBrath

recylingbin wrote: »

I knew I should have tagged 'in intent' onto the end of that.

Watch it again and tell me there wasn't spite in Fabregas's challenge.

Well that's a completely different argument. I'd agree with you that there was more intent in Fabs tackle.

magma69

OPENROAD wrote: »

I never see people doing it though.

I think people are taken in by the media reaction to Wenger.

Always seems to me when other managers come out and stay stuff it is ignored or it is understandable.

Well I condemned Rafa for his "we must focus on the positives" bull when were rubbish.

Wenger takes the biscuit. When Stoke beat them last year he couldn't find anything to bitch about so he moaned about their style of football. His bitching about their throw in tactics was absolutely pathetic. He brings it on himself. Even Fergie sucked it up last week and said Everton were simply the better team. Wenger fully deserves his rep of being a moaner with the victim mentality. All managers do it but not to the degree Wenger does.

Mad_Max

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I don't see what's so wrong with what he said. He said he's not happy with the tackle, he didn't say anything about it being intentional/malicious etc. He then said he doesn't think it's a coincidence that a lot of teams set out to play physical against Arsenal, and the fact they've suffered 3 very bad injuries in the past 5 years as a result of tackles in games. He's entitled to that opinion.

Yeah you're right, I think I read the coincidence part wrong mainly. Actually sounds perfectly reasonable quote when read right.

Eire-Dearg

Just saw the tackle

SlickRic

recylingbin wrote: »

No doubt. But Stoke fans had just seen their player sent off for what looked an innocuous challenge. I'm sure they didn't know how bad it was.

they have screens in the stadium no?

they can see the leg hanging, or if they didn't show that, then at the very least the distraught faces on the faces of both teams.

and getting into the ambulance did they not think it was very serious?

i'm sorry, no excuse.

any injury should not be responded to with chants like that, or 'F*ck You' signs in the player's face; especially the ones by the ambulance.

oh i forgot, human decency obviously has no place in a football stadium; you can do what you like because you're 'passionate' about your team.

bollocks to that.

if those fans see the severity of the injury later, i hope they hang their heads in shame. my guess is they won't though. because they just felt they were being 'passionate'.

OPENROAD

magma69 wrote: »

Well I condemned Rafa for his "we must focus on the positives" bull when were rubbish.

Wenger takes the biscuit. When Stoke beat them last year he couldn't find anything to bitch about so he moaned about their style of football. His bitching about their throw in tactics was absolutely pathetic. He brings it on himself. Even Fergie sucked it up last week and said Everton were simply the better team. Wenger fully deserves his rep of being a moaner with the victim mentality. All managers do it but not to the degree Wenger does.

The way Arsene goes on bugs me sometimes but in many ways he is taking the pressure off his team and instead having it foused on himself, the thing is Arsene will always talk to all sections of the media(which they acknowledge) unlike some. I believe all the managers are the same but Arssene seems to be treated differently

OPENROAD

Fair play to Pullis, was supposed to have been shown a replay of the tackle and has said it was a bad tackle and has apologised to everyone at Arsenal apparently.

Dozen Wicked Words

OPENROAD wrote: »

Fair play to Pullis, was supposed to have been shown a replay of the tackle and has said it was a bad tackle and has apologised to everyone at Arsenal apparently.

He was excellent actually, the reporter was trying to ask what he thought of the awarding of the penalty and he just said the only thing that was important was Ramsey.

As far as Wenger, I thought it was as good as we could have expected from him after another bad incident, but still hope the young Stoke player doesn't get hung out to dry over it as I genuinely think it was just a mistimed, unfortunate tackle.

OPENROAD

Shawcross called up to England squad.

KittyeeTrix

OPENROAD wrote: »

Fair play to Pullis, was supposed to have been shown a replay of the tackle and has said it was a bad tackle and has apologised to everyone at Arsenal apparently.

Of course it was a bad tackle given the outcome but it was still nonetheless not an intentional tackle....
Ramsey came in just as Shawcross went to lash the ball away, unfortunately

Mad_Max

Just seen it there on RTE. I don't think that's a "bad" tackle.

The outcome was terrible but not the actual tackle.

SantryRed

Never ever ever a red card. NEVER! The referee let the damage done make his mind up. I feel for Shawcross. How many times a week do you see players go for them balls? One gets it and he then gets upended. Unfortunate for Shawcross.

NinjaTruncs

Mad_Max wrote: »

Just seen it there on RTE. I don't think that's a "bad" tackle.

The outcome was terrible but not the actual tackle.

I agree, looks like it was just bad luck. no intent.

Ordinary man

Ballacks tackle today was only a yellow and was more vicious:(

gingelion

Agreed, im an arsenal fan and dont think it shouldve been a red. yellow card definitely. bad tackle but not intentional. hope ramsey gets better as quick as possible. was just sayin to a mate bout 10 mins before the tackle that i think he might become a better player than cesc,. probly not gonna happen now. and it means denilson will get more games. thats a bad thing

SlickRic

gingelion wrote: »

was just sayin to a mate bout 10 mins before the tackle that i think he might become a better player than cesc

blasphemy!

therecklessone

Ordinary man wrote: »

Ballacks tackle today was only a yellow and was more vicious:(

I'd agree with that.

OPENROAD

gingelion wrote: »

Agreed, im an arsenal fan and dont think it shouldve been a red. yellow card definitely. bad tackle but not intentional. hope ramsey gets better as quick as possible. was just sayin to a mate bout 10 mins before the tackle that i think he might become a better player than cesc,. probly not gonna happen now. and it means denilson will get more games. thats a bad thing

If he can come back ok from injury, he will imo.

kryogen

the tackle wasnt that bad, he was a split second late tbh, horrible outcome but knowing shawcross i feel bad for him too, he will be absolutely devasted

Obviously my sympathys go to Ramsey, awful thing to happen and nobody deserves it, horrible coming together of circumstance, the studs being in the ground and the tackle being a split second late

i think the tackle was a yellow but because of the outcome it was always going to be red

there was no intent on Shawcross' part to "do him" there, he just isnt the type and as i said, i doubt the lad will sleep tonight he will be feeling so bad

Best wishes to Ramsey hope he can use Eduardo as his inspiration and use him to help him recover

amacachi

OPENROAD wrote: »

Shawcross called up to England squad.

Pity he won't be able to play, you saw him earlier, he looked so upset. I'd be surprised if he sleeps for the next few nights.

Royale with Cheese

kryogen wrote: »

i think the tackle was a yellow but because of the outcome it was always going to be red

I agree with this. It's all well and good looking at a replay and saying it wasn't a red, but when a referee sees it in real time and then sees Aaron Ramsey's leg... you're asking a lot for him not to show red.

SantryRed

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I agree with this. It's all well and good looking at a replay and saying it wasn't a red, but when a referee sees it in real time and then sees Aaron Ramsey's leg... you're asking a lot for him not to show red.

I agree. Definitely do not blame the ref. We'd all do the same to be fair. Would love the Premier League to look at it and rescind it but that's definitely asking too much!

kryogen

OPENROAD wrote: »

Shawcross called up to England squad.

he is there on merit

looks like bad timing cause of todays incident, but he deserves it, been in great form this season

OPENROAD

kryogen wrote: »

he is there on merit

looks like bad timing cause of todays incident, but he deserves it, been in great form this season

Agree, he has been brilliant for me in FF up until today

Leiva

Any update on the kid Ramseys injury ... Just read the tibia and fibia are broke ( which I don't believe) but would love to know what he is facing , and hopefully not a career ender .

leninbenjamin

Those who think Shawcross should not have been sent off should read the following. Specifically the bit in bold.

Serious Foul Play

A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play.

A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

Advantage should not be applied in situations involving serious foul play unless there is a clear subsequent opportunity to score a goal. The referee shall sendoff the player guilty of serious foul play when the ball is next out of play.

A player who is guilty of serious foul play should be sent off and play is restarted with a direct free kick from the position where the offence occurred (see Law 13 – Position of Free Kick) or a penalty kick (if the offence occurred inside the offender’s penalty area).

This is not an opinion. The Referee had no alternative but to send Shawcross off in accordance with the laws of the game.

kryogen

SantryRed wrote: »

Never ever ever a red card. NEVER! The referee let the damage done make his mind up. I feel for Shawcross. How many times a week do you see players go for them balls? One gets it and he then gets upended. Unfortunate for Shawcross.

but you can surely understand the ref? in the moment im sure i would also produce the red, you cant take a look at a replay out there on the pitch and obviously the outcome influenced the decision

dont be hard on the ref though

hopefully the league will rescind it, but honestly given the outcome i dont think thats too likely either

amacachi

mixednuts wrote: »

Any update on the kid Ramseys injury ... Just read the tibia and fibia are broke ( which I don't believe) but would love to know what he is facing , and hopefully not a career ender .

Why?

kryogen

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Those who think Shawcross should not have been sent off should read the following. Specifically the bit in bold.



This is not an opinion. The Referee had no alternative but to send Shawcross off in accordance with the laws of the game.

your own article disproves your opinion

read the first line again, the part just before you started bolding it

seriously foul play is when the opponent uses excessive force or brutality

Shawcross did neither

that is not an opinion, it is a fact

L'prof

mixednuts wrote: »

Any update on the kid Ramseys injury ... Just read the tibia and fibia are broke ( which I don't believe) but would love to know what he is facing , and hopefully not a career ender .

Why not? I wouldn't be surprised. Judging from Diaby and Eduardo, if he recovers, it'll be 9 months to a year.

No intent in the tackle from what I could see, it was just an unfortunate accident and was unlucky to get a red and I'd expect it to be recinded. Can't believe it's happened three times now though!

As for the penalty, the arm was too far out to let go in my opinion and we were denied a pen for a blatant push on Bendtner minutes later so, I don't think there can be any arguments there.

Headshot wrote: »

I think this is Arsenal biggest PL game of the season

I didn't agree before the game but, in hindsight I now think you were right. 2 years ago the day before the Carling Cup final, Eduardo broke his leg and Arsenal's season collapsed. Today we stand 3 points off top with a very favourable run-in against the type of teams we're finally getting the results we deserve against. This could be a massive turning point in our season and exactly what we need to push us to that long awaited piece of silverware.

No team has been convincing but, I think we'll definitely be there or there abouts this season.

SlickRic

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Those who think Shawcross should not have been sent off should read the following. Specifically the bit in bold.

This is not an opinion. The Referee had no alternative but to send Shawcross off in accordance with the laws of the game.

i don't think it did endanger his safety.

that sounds a bit ridiculous as the lad's leg is now broken, but he didn't go high or with intent. he was on the floor, merely going in hard.

so hard and fair is now endangering safety?

i think Shawcross' tackle hits a greyer area in this law than you'd like to think maybe.

Radharc na Sleibhte

SantryRed wrote: »

Never ever ever a red card. NEVER! The referee let the damage done make his mind up. I feel for Shawcross. How many times a week do you see players go for them balls? One gets it and he then gets upended. Unfortunate for Shawcross.

Yeah cos that's the real issue. Well done.

SantryRed

kryogen wrote: »

but you can surely understand the ref? in the moment im sure i would also produce the red, you cant take a look at a replay out there on the pitch and obviously the outcome influenced the decision

dont be hard on the ref though

hopefully the league will rescind it, but honestly given the outcome i dont think thats too likely either

I completely understand the ref. Completely. Don't think it'll be rescinded which should be!

SantryRed

MikeySligo wrote: »

Yeah cos that's the real issue. Well done.

Thanks

Radharc na Sleibhte

SantryRed wrote: »

Thanks

Showing your true colours anyway.

gosplan

magma69 wrote: »

Wenger takes the biscuit. When Stoke beat them last year he couldn't find anything to bitch about so he moaned about their style of football. His bitching about their throw in tactics was absolutely pathetic.

Wenger-01/Nov/08 wrote:

We worked on it a lot. But those kind of goals, straight into the box with 20 people there, it is not our greatest strength to deal with that.

They fought for every ball and they waited for their set-pieces.

We were punished, but at the end of the day Stoke deserved their victory.

You should read something apart form the Daily Telegraph once in a while.


Aside from unoriginal moronic and untrue comments about managerial press confrences (which are usually fairly unoriginal, moronic and untrue all by themselves anyway), I'd like to remind people that last year after some 'Arsenal don't like it up 'em' comments from Sorensen, the Gunners left Stoke with Adebayor, Sagna and Walcott injured. I can see why Wenger's pissed off.

Radharc na Sleibhte

jasonorr wrote: »

unlucky to get a red and I'd expect it to be recinded

I should hope not.

SlickRic

MikeySligo wrote: »

Yeah cos that's the real issue. Well done.

it's all about Ramsey, absolutely.

but that challenge was not a red card challenge.

end of.

the ref, in a split second, had little choice seen as he was confronted with a hanging leg, but it would not be a disaster or a miscarriage of justice to see the red rescinded.

it won't be scrapped mind you, but Shawcross did very little, if anything, wrong.

magma69

MikeySligo wrote: »

I should hope not.

Have you seen the foul again? Those tackles happen every game. A yellow is given at most for them. I can't blame the referee for showing red as the result of the tackle made it seem much more malicious but it was just really bad luck. If you push someone challenging for the ball and they land awkwardly and tear their ligaments, is that a red card too?

What happened today was tragic. Really bad luck, it happens sometimes as it is a contact sport.

kryogen

MikeySligo wrote: »

I should hope not.

you really are just using results based thinking

the tackle itself didnt deserve a red

the injury was horrific and very unfortunate but does not make the tackle any worse then it was

get it?

Radharc na Sleibhte

Bad tackles like this deserve red cards.

Radharc na Sleibhte

magma69 wrote: »

If you push someone challenging for the ball and they land awkwardly and tear their ligaments, is that a red card too?
.

Thats a stupid comparison really.

SlickRic

MikeySligo wrote: »

Bad tackles like this deserve red cards.

but it wasn't a really bad tackle.

just slightly mistimed.

it was a bad injury.

very big difference.

kryogen

MikeySligo wrote: »

Bad tackles like this deserve red cards.

they simply dont

it wasnt a bad tackle, it was mistimed by a split second, there was no malice and it is plainly obvious it was just bad luck

you are obviously not gonna change your opinion so lets just drop it

Radharc na Sleibhte

SlickRic wrote: »

it's all about Ramsey, absolutely.

but that challenge was not a red card challenge.

end of.

the ref, in a split second, had little choice seen as he was confronted with a hanging leg, but it would not be a disaster or a miscarriage of justice to see the red rescinded.

it won't be scrapped mind you, but Shawcross did very little, if anything, wrong.

He was beyond late.
I agree had Ramseys leg not been broken he may have only got a yellow, but in my opinion, I think he had to go for it.

Just because he's a nice boy doesn't mean he doesn't deserve a red.

Radharc na Sleibhte

kryogen wrote: »

they simply dont

it wasnt a bad tackle, it was mistimed by a split second, there was no malice and it is plainly obvious it was just bad luck

you are obviously not gonna change your opinion so lets just drop it

Fair enough, opinions are that.....!

Any word on his injury?
I thought maybe a clean break might be a good thing?
It looked to be his shin?

recylingbin

SlickRic wrote: »

they have screens in the stadium no?

they can see the leg hanging, or if they didn't show that, then at the very least the distraught faces on the faces of both teams.

and getting into the ambulance did they not think it was very serious?

i'm sorry, no excuse.

any injury should not be responded to with chants like that, or 'F*ck You' signs in the player's face; especially the ones by the ambulance.

oh i forgot, human decency obviously has no place in a football stadium; you can do what you like because you're 'passionate' about your team.

bollocks to that.

if those fans see the severity of the injury later, i hope they hang their heads in shame. my guess is they won't though. because they just felt they were being 'passionate'.

Jesus, don't cry.

In all my years going to soccer matches, I've never seen a controversial incident replayed on a big screen at the ground. A dodgy goal maybe. A bad tackle, never.

Human decency ffs!

adox

I think even the most fanatical of Arsenal fans, given 24 hours or so, will admit that it wasn't a malicious challenge.

Horrible injury for Ramsey and I really do wish him a speedy recovery, but anyone that knows anyhing about football knows that there was no malice or recklessness in that tackle IMO.

leninbenjamin

kryogen wrote: »

your own article disproves your opinion

read the first line again, the part just before you started bolding it

seriously foul play is when the opponent uses excessive force or brutality

Shawcross did neither

that is not an opinion, it is a fact

That's not an article. That's the an extract from the actual document that sets out the laws of the game.

Secondly, He broke a leg, that requires quite a considerable amount of force. One might say excessive considering the force requirements to break a leg a considerably higher than the force requirements to kick a ball from another players possession.

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't think it did endanger his safety.

that sounds a bit ridiculous as the lad's leg is now broken, but he didn't go high or with intent. he was on the floor, merely going in hard.

so hard and fair is now endangering safety?

i think Shawcross' tackle hits a greyer area in this law than you'd like to think maybe.

The law in question makes no reference towards the height of the feet, positioning of the players, the intent of the tackling player so your arguments in that context are of no relevance.

Shawcross made a tackle that left another player seriously injured as a direct result. It was not an accidental coming together, or an awkward landing etc, it was a deliberate attempt to win the ball that placed excessive force on a players standing leg and seriously compromised his safety. That clearly fulfils the requirements for a sending off offence as listed above.

SlickRic

recylingbin wrote: »

Human decency ffs!

apologies for expecting it.

when we go to a football match we don't slip into a parallel universe where it shouldn't exist.

fair play to most of the Stoke fans though, they genuinely did display it in abundance.