Your thoughts on defection.

El_Duderino 09

Hey guys I’m new here and I’m curious to know how many atheists here have left their religion. I was raised catholic in a fairly secular family, and I have never really believed in the supernatural. Before Christmas I sent off my declaration of defection to bishop Freeman and he replied to ask me to speak to my parish priest. I went and spoke to him and told him I don’t believe in god or Catholicism. He’s a gentleman and we had a very respectful chat and he acknowledged that it is the choice of the individual.

Most of my friends are atheist in the broad sense, and support what I have done but none of them have actually done it themselves. I wonder why that is. I must say even though I have been atheist for a while now it was still difficult to actually send the letter and go talk to the PP.

So I’m asking for your thoughts on defection.

Thanks

Fad

I'll do it whenever I move out permanently, because frankly, it would just cause too much of an argument at the moment.

I dont think it'll be in anyway difficult to do, it'll just be a question of bothering my arse!

Tiddlers

I've done it. I sent off my letter to the bishop where I was baptised and got a similar "let's chat" letter back.I don't live in the area any more but I still declined as he wasn't going to say anything to change my mind.I've a couple of friends who have also become apostate to the Catholic Church.However, for the most part, people I know who claim to be agnostic or atheist haven't sent a letter of defection because 'they don't want to offend any family members'.I know it's a personal issue to everyone but if YOU feel strongly about defecting from the church it shouldn't matter what others think. Of course there are instances when it will upset people but remember you never had a say about whether you wanted to be baptised into the church and it's a chance to show your stance.There are many other cultural and societal affiliations people are much quicker and willing to disassociate themselves from.We live in a country where religion has been innoculated into our lives in such a way that we feel we can't reject.

pljudge321

Fad wrote: »

I'll do it whenever I move out permanently, because frankly, it would just cause too much of an argument at the moment.

I dont think it'll be in anyway difficult to do, it'll just be a question of bothering my arse!

I'm in the same boat as yourself.

Vomit

I do it usually once in the morning... maybe after lunch if I have beans.

Daftendirekt

Vomit wrote: »

I do it usually once in the morning... maybe after lunch if I have beans.

Defection. Not defecation.


I haven't done it simply because I don't acknowledge my former membership of the CC as being valid or meaningful, and so don't really see much point in defecting.

That said, I might do it some day. Just for shits and giggles.

The Mad Hatter

Like transferring files off my old PC, doing my taxes and exercising, it's constantly something I plan to do...later...

El_Duderino 09

Tiddlers wrote: »

I've done it. I sent off my letter to the bishop where I was baptised and got a similar "let's chat" letter back.I don't live in the area any more but I still declined as he wasn't going to say anything to change my mind.I've a couple of friends who have also become apostate to the Catholic Church.However, for the most part, people I know who claim to be agnostic or atheist haven't sent a letter of defection because 'they don't want to offend any family members'.I know it's a personal issue to everyone but if YOU feel strongly about defecting from the church it shouldn't matter what others think. Of course there are instances when it will upset people but remember you never had a say about whether you wanted to be baptised into the church and it's a chance to show your stance.There are many other cultural and societal affiliations people are much quicker and willing to disassociate themselves from.We live in a country where religion has been innoculated into our lives in such a way that we feel we can't reject.

Hey Tiddlers fair point about offending family members. I was lucky that it wasn’t an issue. My mother wasn’t thrilled but didn’t try to stop me really and ultimately she respected my decision. Also my uncle is a monsignor so she didn’t want it to affect his chances of promotion from the recent resignations among the bishops. Mostly she couldn’t articulate her reasons because, I suspect, they are not rational. Like you said, indoctrination. I agree you didn’t choose baptism when it happened but they do consider it valid and count you among their numbers. That’s why I acted. it’s a small gesture but its all I have.

Zillah

Couldn't be arsed. I'll get to it some day.

However, somehow I feel that there might be a way to take advantage of this membership later in life. Like if I'm running through the streets of some town in the Argentinian countryside with a violent gang behind me I could run towards the nearest church screaming "sanctuaaaaaaaaaryyyyyyyyy!" Then the old priest opens a slot and glares at me with sleepy eyes. "Are you Catholic?" he asks. Oh my God. "YES!"

robindch

Zillah wrote: »

I feel that there might be a way to take advantage of this membership later in life. Like if I'm running through the streets of some town in the Argentinian countryside with a violent gang behind me I could run towards the nearest church screaming "sanctuaaaaaaaaaryyyyyyyyy!" Then the old priest opens a slot and glares at me with sleepy eyes. "Are you Catholic?" he asks. Oh my God. "YES!"

Or if you need to travel to Saudi on business. I gather that atheists aren't permitted.

Kinky Slinky

I am an atheist but i doubt i would get in done in case my future partner wanted to get married in a church,it seems more trouble than its worth.

El_Duderino 09

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I am an atheist but i doubt i would get in done in case my future partner wanted to get married in a church,it seems more trouble than its worth.

Fair enough. For what its worth so long as your partner is catholic you can still get married in a church. Its like when a catholic marries a protestant.
If it ever comes to looking for sanctuary, im prepared to lie to the padre.

fitz0

I plan on doing it soon as I'll be out of the country for the next census and I know the mammy will put me down as a Catherlic. So I'm going to pre-empt that.

Dades

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I am an atheist but i doubt i would get in done in case my future partner wanted to get married in a church,it seems more trouble than its worth.

I think you can still do that if you're not catholic, btw. Just a little more paperwork/banter with the priest required.

fitz0 wrote: »

I plan on doing it soon as I'll be out of the country for the next census and I know the mammy will put me down as a Catherlic. So I'm going to pre-empt that.

If you ain't in the country you shouldn't be on the census - though I appreciate the sentiment!

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

If you ain't in the country you shouldn't be on the census - though I appreciate the sentiment!

I was going to post this, but then again what if he's just away for a week?

Gambler

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I am an atheist but i doubt i would get in done in case my future partner wanted to get married in a church,it seems more trouble than its worth.

As some of the others mentioned it's very possible. I got married in a church ceremony with all the trimmings almost 2 years ago. Your partner does have to get permission from the bishop and there's a small bit of extra paperwork but it's no more hastle than anything else. In fact in the greater picture it's one of the easier things to get sorted before the big day

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I am an atheist but i doubt i would get in done in case my future partner wanted to get married in a church,it seems more trouble than its worth.

Just to repeat the same as other posters. I had defected a year before I got married in a Catholic church ... it was no problem. Came as a bit of a shock to the in-laws to find out I was not Catholic:eek:

eblistic

Zillah wrote: »

I was going to post this, but then again what if he's just away for a week?

From what I recall the census is a count of people in Ireland and in each home on census night. Mammys writing down the details of people not in the house that night may actually be against the law.

Mena

robindch wrote: »

Or if you need to travel to Saudi on business. I gather that atheists aren't permitted.

I've been to Saudi 5 or 6 times in the past four years and it's never been a problem.

So you can stop worrying about that one at least.

As for the OP, was never a part of any of it so never had to leave, seems I was lucky...

bnt

"Defection" is a weird word for this context, I think - it implies a betrayal of group loyalty e.g. when Cold War era Russian pilots flew their MiGs to US bases in Japan. What has this religion done to earn your loyalty? I know churches are involved in social work and founded hospitals etc., but could those things be done only by the religious?

The difficulty I have with this question is that while I was taken to a Catholic Church as a kid, by my mother, I don't remember regarding the Catholic Church as "my church" or "my religion". It was just one of those things you do as a kid, like believing in Santa Claus, and I grew out of it. My mother died just before I turned 13, and without her influence it was easy to just stop pretending - but I never got to have an argument with her about religion.

Xyo

Since I never had any choice in being made a catholic and decided from a young age that religion wasn't my thing I see no reason to send anyone a letter formally leaving something which in my mind I was never a part of.

Agricola

If i wanted to cancel my membership with Manchester United Id send a letter or make a phonecall, cause MU is a real organisation based on a true religion ie football! and it takes my money too obviously!

If I wanted to cancel my membership to the high council of intergalactic squid entities, i wouldnt bother doing anything, cause it doesnt exist in the first place. The beliefs of the CC fall into much the same bracket in my view.

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

I was going to post this, but then again what if he's just away for a week?

Who plans a weeks holidays 13 months in advance?!

Next census 10 April 2011, btw.

fitz0

Dades wrote: »

If you ain't in the country you shouldn't be on the census - though I appreciate the sentiment!

Fair point, I'm away for the year, but I'll be back not 2 weeks after the census is taken. I don't see a reason why I should be off the census until the next one comes around.

Tiddlers

I just wonder if people can truly or officially be considered atheist or agnostic if they have not defected from the catholic religion?

fitz0

Tiddlers wrote: »

I just wonder if people can truly or officially be considered atheist or agnostic if they have not defected from the catholic religion?

Why? Does being an involuntary member of an organization automatically invoke belief in a deity? Perchance you're thinking of anti-theism rather than atheism/agnosticism.

Daftendirekt

Tiddlers wrote: »

I just wonder if people can truly or officially be considered atheist or agnostic if they have not defected from the catholic religion?

Yes, as long as you know the secret handshake.

Zillah

Tiddlers wrote: »

I just wonder if people can truly or officially be considered atheist or agnostic if they have not defected from the catholic religion?

I have just added you to my roster for members of the Church of Byoxotl. I do not provide any means by which you can be removed from this list. You are therefore not an atheist and can never be.

In fact, I'm putting all of humanity, past present and future, on my list. Now there never have been, are not and never will be any atheists. I bet Kirk Cameron wish he thought of that.

Tiddlers

fitz0 wrote: »

Why? Does being an involuntary member of an organization automatically invoke belief in a deity? Perchance you're thinking of anti-theism rather than atheism/agnosticism.

No, but it affiliates or associates you with the religion even if you don't practice. If you once became a member (not just a supporter) of a political party but later you stopped believing in their policies or they did things that outraged you, anyone would be quick to leave and sever their ties with the party. You couldn't really continue being a member and start believing in another party.In my opinion, religion is the same.As far as I'm concerned the fact that membership to a religion is often involuntary it's an even greater reason to apostate and show what you believe.

Zillah

Tiddlers wrote: »

No, but it affiliates or associates you with the religion even if you don't practice. If you once became a member (not just a supporter) of a political party but later you stopped believing in their policies or they did things that outraged you, anyone would be quick to leave and sever their ties with the party. You couldn't really continue being a member and start believing in another party.In my opinion, religion is the same.As far as I'm concerned the fact that membership to a religion is often involuntary it's an even greater reason to apostate and show what you believe.

Atheism isn't about membership, it's about belief or lack thereof. I am both an atheist and a member of the Catholic Church. Feels very dirty even saying that though, I must get on with apostatizing myself.

fitz0

Tiddlers wrote: »

No, but it affiliates or associates you with the religion even if you don't practice. If you once became a member (not just a supporter) of a political party but later you stopped believing in their policies or they did things that outraged you, anyone would be quick to leave and sever their ties with the party. You couldn't really continue being a member and start believing in another party.In my opinion, religion is the same.As far as I'm concerned the fact that membership to a religion is often involuntary it's an even greater reason to apostate and show what you believe.

Fine Gael didn't pick me up as a baby and splash water on my head, so it's not really the same is it?

Greentopia

Well it's funny you should ask El Duderino, I'm actually sending off the papers next week to Dublin to defect from the CC. :P

Being an agnostic atheist religion means little to me anyway.
I'm not a parent so I don't have to worry about getting a sprog who's baptised into the local school, which I believe is a big reason why a lot of parents, or would be parents don't leave.

Most of my friends are either Church of Ireland/agnostic/atheist or "lapsed" Catholic who just don't bother with defecting but my reason to leave is not only because of the abuse scandals but also because I don't want my membership used by the CC to justify their involvement in social policies in state health and education.

The fewer numbers of members officially in the church the less clout and influence they can have.
That's the absolute best way to diminish the power of the CC in this country IMO and why the hate apostates. It threatens the continuing existence of the church to the core.

So that's why I'm leaving.:)

panda100

Greentopia wrote: »

I'm not a parent so I don't have to worry about getting a sprog who's baptised into the local school, which I believe is a big reason why a lot of parents, or would be parents don't leave.

This is one of my biggest reasons for not defecting as I really dont want to jepordise my childrens future. If I am living in Dublin I wil send them to an Educate Together school,but at the moment Im living in rural Limerick and there's nowt but Catholic schools here.

Also another reason I am hesitant is that I was baptised in London and so it won't actually make any differnce to the record over here.

I DO want to defect though as I feel it important to take a stand and I believe that the more people who defect,the more likely it will be there will be a complete seperation of chucrh and state.

strobe

Agricola wrote: »

If I wanted to cancel my membership to the high council of intergalactic squid entities

Leave the HCISE?!?!??? So those octopus bastards got to you too huh? Then it's begun.......

PeterIanStaker

I'm like a few people here, I'll do it when I get around to it.

And involuntary baptism of a defenceless infant and the notion that this innocent has "original sin" is just f**ing absurd, another reason not to have your sprogs anywhere near the RCC.

Tim Robbins

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

I'm like a few people here, I'll do it when I get around to it.

And involuntary baptism of a defenceless infant and the notion that this innocent has "original sin" is just f**ing absurd, another reason not to have your sprogs anywhere near the RCC.

I am in the process of doing this. Pretty shocked more Irish people haven't. The littany of child abuse scandals is our equivalent of the halocaust and we must do something against this evil organisation. It reminds me that atheists aren't as good as thinking / acting for themselves as they think they are.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It reminds me that atheists aren't as good as thinking / acting for themselves as they think they are.

Not every atheist sees the point in doing what is nothing but a symbolic gesture.

There's a census next year - that's what actually counts.

Lemegeton

i wouldnt give those [edit]people I don't like[/edit] in the CC the time of day let alone waste my time sending them a letter to tell them i dont believe in their mumbo jumbo. i still class myself as atheist.

.

El_Duderino 09

I found it very difficult to send the letter. I had I in an envelope in my car for weeks. Indoctrination sometimes exerts subtle power over people. I wonder if it plays a part in any of you guys decision not to send the letter yet?

In the end I decided it was no use to just be an atheist. I wanted to go talk to my PP and tell him exactly what I felt. I respect the community coordination they can do, and the rest I have no interest in. however I did want to tell him I don’t believe in the supernatural or superstition. I also wanted to tell him I wasn’t there as a knee jerk reaction to the abuse, but their reaction was symptomatic of the problem. That is, when faced with serving the interest of people or the institution they choose the institution every time. I told him I see it as an amoral corporation and like any other corporation I would like to see them with ever diminishing power over social matters outside their own area. I think it needed to be said, and if everyone who thinks it, said it, we would be closer to that end.

It’s as simple as going to countmeout.ie printing the form, signing and posting it. In my experience it’s not as easy as it sounds and that is why it’s all the more urgent to stem the indoctrination now.

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

Not every atheist sees the point in doing what is nothing but a symbolic gesture.

There's a census next year - that's what actually counts.

you're not really an atheist unless you do :-)

But I think we'd agree if an atheist wishes to remain propping this institution than the forfeit their right to give out this institution control of schools and their manipulation of social policy in general as they are propping the institution up with their membership.

Tim Robbins

Lemegeton wrote: »

i wouldnt give those [edit]people I don't like[/edit] in the CC the time of day let alone waste my time sending them a letter to tell them i dont believe in their mumbo jumbo. i still class myself as atheist.

.

And they class you as a Catholic. Here Government we still have well over 3 million members it's right we control all the schools, isn't it...

Malari

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Most of my friends are atheist in the broad sense, and support what I have done but none of them have actually done it themselves. I wonder why that is. I must say even though I have been atheist for a while now it was still difficult to actually send the letter and go talk to the PP.

So I’m asking for your thoughts on defection.

Thanks

I didn't find any difficulty at all. I'm not sure I remember what actually prompted me to do it. It was before the countmeout.ie website was started, so I just sent a strongly worded letter to a bishop in the town I was born. My parents didn't remember where the church was.

They didn't question my decision or suggest that I talk to a priest (which is just as well really, as I don't even know where the nearest catholic church is!). Maybe the "strongly worded" part made them think they were better off without me

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote: »

But I think we'd agree if an atheist wishes to remain propping this institution than the forfeit their right to give out this institution control of schools and their manipulation of social policy in general as they are propping the institution up with their membership.

Firstly I don't see how the churches own lists prop up anything except their own ideas of importance. The government doesn't use their books as it's basis for policy making - it uses the (also flawed) census figures.

Rather than campaigning to get people to officially opt out of the church, I'd rather see a campaign next year to have valid options on the census, and a public call for young people to assert their positions on the form.


Secondly I don't trust the church as far as I could throw one to actually remove me from a dusty book, or from any figures they spout when under fire.

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

Firstly I don't see how the churches own lists prop up anything except their own ideas of importance. The government doesn't use their books as it's basis for policy making - it uses the (also flawed) census figures.

It's not clear what they use. Some Priests and Bishops will be adamant they don't use it, but I have read reports that they do use it.

Also, why should I prop or anyone else prop up their ideas of self importance?

Rather than campaigning to get people to officially opt out of the church, I'd rather see a campaign next year to have valid options on the census, and a public call for young people to assert their positions on the form.

I'd support both.

Secondly I don't trust the church as far as I could throw one to actually remove me from a dusty book, or from any figures they spout when under fire.

Same with me. Which is why I don't trust them when they say they don't use these figures?

If FF or any organisation had me down or their books, I'd seek to remove myself also.

Mark Hamill

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's not clear what they use. Some Priests and Bishops will be adamant they don't use it, but I have read reports that they do use it.

Also, why should I prop or anyone else prop up their ideas of self importance?

Who is to say that by sending a letter you are denting their sense of self importance? The vast majority of people in Ireland are not originally catholic by choice (because of baptism at birth) and would be already excluded from honestly calling themselves catholic by virtue of not following any of the rules anyway (contraception, eating meat on good friday, not believing in the resurrection or the trinity or the infallibity of teh pope, etc). I dont see why the religious administration wont just continue to ignore what they dont like. Besides, who is to say that anything happens once the letter is sent in? Has anyone here actually gone and checked to see if they have been removed from the churches books?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd support both.

It would be a lot more efficient to just campaign to have it that by not labelling yourself as catholic on the census, that you have officially opted out of the church.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Same with me. Which is why I don't trust them when they say they don't use these figures?

Then the issue is with the politicians, who ignore their own official data for unofficial, unverifiable data from a biased source.

Tim Robbins

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Who is to say that by sending a letter you are denting their sense of self importance? The vast majority of people in Ireland are not originally catholic by choice (because of baptism at birth) and would be already excluded from honestly calling themselves catholic by virtue of not following any of the rules anyway (contraception, eating meat on good friday, not believing in the resurrection or the trinity or the infallibity of teh pope, etc). I dont see why the religious administration wont just continue to ignore what they dont like. Besides, who is to say that anything happens once the letter is sent in? Has anyone here actually gone and checked to see if they have been removed from the churches books?

You'd be surprised. Every single Amnesty International campaign is based on the power of letter writing and people putting their name to their opinions.

It would be a lot more efficient to just campaign to have it that by not labelling yourself as catholic on the census, that you have officially opted out of the church.

Or what about campaign whereby you taxed extra if you say you are a member of a church. Like it is Germany. Surely that would get rid of the hypocrites and give us an accurate reflection of how many people really are Catholic.

Erren Music

Mena wrote: »

I've been to Saudi 5 or 6 times in the past four years and it's never been a problem.

So you can stop worrying about that one at least.

As for the OP, was never a part of any of it so never had to leave, seems I was lucky...

I had an Israelli stamp in my passport about 20 years ago, I wasn't even allowed fly over Saudi.

strobe

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Or what about campaign whereby you taxed extra if you say you are a member of a church. Like it is Germany. Surely that would get rid of the hypocrites and give us an accurate reflection of how many people really are Catholic.

People are taxed more in Germany for being a member of a church? Can you source that, or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Tim Robbins

strobe wrote: »

People are taxed more in Germany for being a member of a church? Can you source that, or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Do we really have to source things that are easily available?

Google, wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Germany#Religious_freedom_in_Germany

You'll get it...

Mark Hamill

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You'd be surprised. Every single Amnesty International campaign is based on the power of letter writing and people putting their name to their opinions.

But usually en mass. Amnesty International campaigns are about getting thousands of people to show their opposition to one act (at a time). Letters come to churches singularly (ie, one letter dealing with one persons issue, another person might have that issue themselves, but its still a seperate entity), and given everything that has come out about the abuse scandals, it seems that they have no legal or administrative requirement to be honest in anything they do.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Or what about campaign whereby you taxed extra if you say you are a member of a church. Like it is Germany. Surely that would get rid of the hypocrites and give us an accurate reflection of how many people really are Catholic.

On the one hand a good idea, but on the other hand, in Germany this is the basis of having faith taught in school (see the wikipedia page you linked too), so it might, in the long run, get in way of removing faith based education in schools here.

Tim Robbins

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But usually en mass. Amnesty International campaigns are about getting thousands of people to show their opposition to one act (at a time). Letters come to churches singularly (ie, one letter dealing with one persons issue, another person might have that issue themselves, but its still a seperate entity), and given everything that has come out about the abuse scandals, it seems that they have no legal or administrative requirement to be honest in anything they do.

I don't agree. If the Church got a bombardment of letters (I think they've got about 7,000) and the majority of these letters references the abuse scandals, they would have to get up off their *rse and do something more meaningful as a response to Murphy and Ryan. Instead their response has been pathetic. Because they know they have enough hypocrites, holy joes and apathetic people to keep their power base. They also know that even when there is a very good process for defecting that they majority of people couldn't be *rsed which tells them in their own perverse way they still have power over everyone bar a small percentage of heathens.