Animal issues

Ginja Ninja

this isn't for pets and discussion of such.

Extrasupervery wrote: »

It shows how much we rely on animals in everyday life, and how we treat them accordingly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NghzqtqP50Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXhbSgRIUKI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3adsbkIrdY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU1mnp8_O7c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS-Y7xusxKk&feature=related

There's the first five parts, kudos if you can stomach it. We're mean sons of bitches.

^^this came up in the nyom nyom thread.
first of all: I'm an animal lover I'm by no means "anti animal rights" or pro cruelty of any kind,but I do hate whiny sentimentals like the guy above.I'm not trying to crap on peoples beliefs,just discussing it

Speaking as someone who grew up on a farm and is doing a degree in Animal Science,I can call the above nothing more than propaganda,at least half of what I've seen so far is taken out of context and the rest is some philosphical mushy cr*p about being kind to animals and the whole world is full of roses,reality check it's kill or be killed it has been for millions of years,right now we're on top and that's how it'll be for a while.Yes,I'll admit people can be heartless and cruel,so can animals and so can both to those of their own species.The world isn't a happy and rosey place,accept it dude and move on[at the narrator]

Fad

I'll post in this tomorrow.....no time to do a proper post, but I think I'll end up disagreeing with lots of people >_<

degausserxo

Circle of life. I have beef (tssh!) with vegans and vegetarians who are so for any reason other than health ones. But it's late, and I shall explain tomorrow.

Arcade Panda

I'm really indifferent to the whole thing to be honest...I love meat but I'm not going to give out about vegans or vegitarians, who am I to give out about someone else's beliefs?

hitlersson666

Me thinks that this will be the thread that will divide us :eek:

Bobalicious93

God I love meat.

Delicious delicious meat.

*drools*

Ginja Ninja

Extrasupervery wrote: »

I'ma opt out of this thread. It'll just end very very very very badly.

I won't and I accept that it will[my apologies now]

there's so much of it taken from a fools perspective, for one the way the captive bolt "Stunner" is designed is to rupture the cortex and cerebellum,basically "killing" the animal straight away,body functions continue[breathing and pulse,but the pain and voluntary movement organs are destroyed,the animal can feel no pain,no matter how bad of an aim the operator is.

with regard the conditions: I wonder how many times he thought of the people doing the work? Why are we the bad ones? the conditions are,the way they are because producers have no other options,even at it's most efficient[and that's what it's about not cruelty] Dairy farmers in almost every country except new zealand and the US lose money by producing milk,if people want to have a friendly meat industry pay for it.I always wonder how many people would be so keen if mince was 10 quid a pound,I'll support anyone with strong beliefs but if you feel like paying enough money so that I can get through college AND be nice to the animals,then starts forking over.It's all very nice hoping it's done to a certain standard,we all still have to make a life out of it,regardless of your opinion

Arcade Panda

hitlersson666 wrote: »

Me thinks that this will be the thread that will divide us :eek:

we survived the Homosexuality thread...I can't see this being as controversial to be honest!

Konata

I'll watch that video properly tomorrow (too tired now). I'll just say that I don't condone any inhumane treatment of animals in any way but that was not the reason why I became a vegetarian. It was mainly just a dietary choice.

Shall post more tomorrow.

CokaColumbo

I do not think that it is justifiable to kill or commodify non-human animals, regardless of how well or how badly we treat them. This goes for agriculture, entertainment, vivisection, clothing etc.
I don't think that animals should be treated like a natural resource but instead should be given at least one fundamental right: the right not to be treated like things.

That's my point of view.

P.S. I am pretty sure that I've seen Earthlings before but I don't base my opinions on it.

Ginja Ninja

CokaColumbo wrote: »

I am a vegan and do not think that it is justifiable to kill or commodify non-human animals, regardless of how well or how badly we treat them. This goes for agriculture, entertainment, vivisection, clothing etc.
I don't think that animals should be treated like a natural resource but instead should be given at least one fundamental right: the right not to be treated like things.

That's my point of view. Now let's debate the issue!

but,they are things.I'm not denying personalities or anything like that,I for one believe that humans are arrogant to assume we have some innane right to be not treated like things,it's the way of the world.If you were caught in a lions hunt it wouldn't pause to give you the right not to be treated like lunch and i don't want to be the arrogant one who says that we treat it any different to the way the rules the world works on

Extrasupervery

In future I'll keep my opinions to myself. I don't enforce my choices on anyone. What I believe in is my own business, I'd prefer not to see others be so disrespectful about it.

Ginja Ninja

Extrasupervery wrote: »

In future I'll keep my opinions to myself. I don't enforce my choices on anyone. What I believe in is my own business, I'd prefer not to see others be so disrespectful about it.

I'm sure this is directed at me,I'm not trying to be disrespectful and I'm sorry to anyone who read the above as such.I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone,just simply to state it.

i'm not condoning all of what in these videos just what's taken out of conetxt,there are a good few examples of people in this who don't deserve to be called human

Konata

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

I'm sure this is directed at me,I'm not trying to be disrespectful and I'm sorry to anyone who read the above as such.I'm not trying to force my opion on anyone,just simply to state it

You're not being disrespectful as such. Everyone should be allowed to debate issues such as animal rights and to state their opinions on the matter. Such statements should be made in a fairly respectful manner with no one saying things like 'Ah you're talking bollocks/ You know nothing/ I'm going to throw a plate of meat in your face' etc. etc. (not saying that anyone did or will do this but there's aways the potential).

It's an issue that there's obviously going to be conflicting opinions on, but everyone can learn from both sides of the argument.

Ginja Ninja

Hotaru wrote: »

You're not being disrespectful as such. Everyone should be allowed to debate issues such as animal rights and to state their opinions on the matter. Such statements should be made in a fairly respectful manner with no one saying things like 'Ah you're talking bollocks/ You know nothing/ I'm going to throw a plate of meat in your face' etc. etc. (not saying that anyone did or will do this but there's aways the potential).

It's an issue that there's obviously going to be conflicting opinions on, but everyone can learn from both sides of the argument.

I know,which is why I'm trying to explain my view to the best of my ability[I'll admit that's not as good as most] but still,I truly am sorry to anyone who felt offended by my opinion and it should be taken as such.It's just that these fanatical argument really strike a chord with me and these videos hit home on a large portion of my life in a very obscured way

bythewoods

I'm a vegetarian, but I own two leather jackets and oftentimes cook meat for people.

Huhhhhhh?

Ginja Ninja

bythewoods wrote: »

I'm a vegetarian, but I own two leather jackets and oftentimes cook meat for people.

Huhhhhhh?

okay then.

I'll say it again,I have no problem with anyone with any of these beliefs,just those that are basing their opinions on things that are one sided like these videos.

I've huge respect for vegetarians,it's not something i could do myself[and yes I know it wasn't a serious choice for a lot of you]

jumpguy

I don't eat much meat, only chicken and turkey at Christmas, but that's because I don't like the taste of most meats. Animal welfare is important, but most animals are well treated (free range eggs and the like) and so on. Abit tired to write a big yoke about this.

Animal welfare is important, as well as conservation, but animals will always be hunted and killed, because humans are omnivores.

Jako8

Animals eat other animals. Humans eat animals. Animals even eat humans sometimes.

It's the circle of life.

I love animals. I am, however, in no way against animals being used as a source of nutrition. As long as the life they live is not comprised of being boxed up. Free range is acceptable in my opinion.

I really think it's not right to blame humans for eating animals. It's primal instinct. We are omnivores.

A Neurotic

A friend of mine is doing Veterinary Science. A large part of their course is dissection of animals. She was shocked the other day when she discovered that animals they were dissecting (in this case, a sheep) was raised on a farm and killed purely to be dissected.

Sounds bad. But that's exactly the same/far worse, depending on your outlook, as raising an animal and killing it purely to eat it, or use its hide, or whatever.

It just made me think. I'm still thinking >_<

bythewoods

A Neurotic wrote: »

A friend of mine is doing Veterinary Science. A large part of their course is dissection of animals. She was shocked the other day when she discovered that animals they were dissecting (in this case, a sheep) was raised on a farm and killed purely to be dissected.

Sounds bad. But that's exactly the same/far worse, depending on your outlook, as raising an animal and killing it purely to eat it, or use its hide, or whatever.

It just made me think. I'm still thinking >_<

Well, we have to dissect rats which isn't altogether different. They're raised in the lab and killed for our experiments, is that bad or...?

For the record, they were still warm when we got them. I asked, they were killed by having their necks broken. Also, whilst not a big animal rights activist, I did have to go outside for a minute as I thought it was absolute minggggggg- central and wanted to be sick. I don't disagree with it, just find rats (particularly freshly killed lab rats) to be quite nasty.

phlegms

I love a bit of meat myself. Delicious stuff altogether.

ohthebaby

I'm a vegetarian and have been for the last five or six years. I can't exactly remember when. I chose to become one due to the animals. I grew up on a beef farm and seeing them loaded up on the lorries and hauled off broke my heart from a very young age. I remember coming home form school, eating my dinner and looking out the window, seeing our cows grazing in the field. It never felt right.

So five or six years ago I felt I had to change. I was old enough to cook for myself and manage my own diet so nothing was stopping me. I got handed a plate of meat dinner one day andn I just said no more. My mother said she didn't mind as long as I was responsible and prepared to do stuff for myself. Since then, I have pretty much cooked for myself every single day. It makes moving to college easier, being used to the whole 'fend for yourself' in the food stakes...! :P

In regards to the animals rights videos, I don't watch them and never had. I just couldn't. I have seen snippets of similar stuff over the years and to be honest they upset me for weeks. The images stay in your head and just play over and over. I'm a big animal person so watching them and hearing the noises, the squeals, etc would kill me.

I don't know if I agree with them or not. Sure, if people want to look at them go ahead but they're not something I would ever force anybody to watch because I know how I feel about them myself. In a similar way I have never really tried to persuade anybody of vegetarianism and this is something my friends have always said and are probably grateful for! They used to be nervous eating meat around me but that's none of my business so I just keep my mouth shut.

I do think the whole meat / animal food stuffs is wrong. It makes me so angry to think what these animals have to go through, in a similar way that fox hunting absolutely makes my blood boil. I just cannot understand the mentality that animals are ours to do whatever want to do. They're not. They're living, breathing creatures that feel pain in a similar way we would. A fox's heart would pump with fear as he's chased around a field just as we would. A pig squeals when it's for the chop just as we would. It just mystifies me when people cannot understand this.

And this circle of life mentality annoys me. Yes we are on top now. But as humans, we have a conscience. Killing animals is wrong. We no longer need to eat meat to survive as we may have in previous periods of history. I know it tastes nice and believe me there are times when I would be prepared to do anything for a juicy beef burger but is that really enough to justify it? I don't think it is so why are we still doing it?

Sorry I feel really really strongly about this and I hope I didn't offend anyone in all of that.

CokaColumbo

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

...If you were caught in a lions hunt it wouldn't pause to give you the right not to be treated like lunch and i don't want to be the arrogant one who says that we treat it any different to the way the rules the world works on

Jako8 wrote: »

Animals eat other animals. Humans eat animals. Animals even eat humans sometimes.
It's the circle of life... Its primal instinct. We are omnivores.

The way I see it, we humans have developed a sense of morality and generally understand the difference between what is right and what is wrong. It is this morality that stops us, as a society, from doing things that are perfectly natural for us to do. This includes settling disputes with violence; abandoning your child; defecating in public; forcing yourself sexually onto others etc.
These things are natural, and sometimes instinctual, for us to do but that doesn't mean that we condone them; in fact we condemn them outright. Animals do all sorts of things that humans do not regard as morally appropriate. We are not driven by this "primal instinct" people ascribe to other animals.

Why should it be any different when it comes to us killing non-human animals? As omnivores don't we have the ability to make the choice?

Pigwidgeon

Right, well where do I start.

I was vegetarian for all of secondary school, but due to health reasons I had to stop in 6th year. Basically, I had become severely anaemic, my body wouldn't accept iron supplements for some reason, and the doctor gave me two choices, either start eating meat again and trying as much as possible to increase my iron intake, or start getting iron injections.
Now this got me thinking very seriously about the whole thing. It was basically keep being vegetarian, and risk causing myself serious health problems. Or as hard as it would be, slowly reintroduce meat into my diet. I went for eating meat again.
Now this may seem hypocritical of me, but I felt at the end of the day, my health was more important than me not eating meat, when the animals are more than likely going to be slaughtered anyway.

It was incredibly hard to go back onto meat, and I still have issues with it sometimes, but I am 10 times healthier than I was when I was vegetarian.

The one thing I can't stand about some vegetarians, it bothered me when I was one too, is when they have a go at other people for eating meat around them. The way I looked at it was, it was my personal choice, and it's their personal choice. I would never try and force my beliefs on anyone else. As bythewoods has said, I'd have no problem cooking meat for other people. No vegetarian likes people giving them grief for not eating meat, so why would they give other people grief for eating meat, is what I don't understand.
As with many things in life, my general opinion is each to their own, nobody can or should force you to change your beliefs to suit theirs.

Extrasupervery

Since I went veggie I've refered to myself as an 'aspiring vegan'. I think it's about time to take that seriously...I did get awfully ill when I stopped eating meat though. Worth it? I think so.

Stev_o

ohthebaby wrote: »

And this circle of life mentality annoys me. Yes we are on top now. But as humans, we have a conscience. Killing animals is wrong. We no longer need to eat meat to survive as we may have in previous periods of history. I know it tastes nice and believe me there are times when I would be prepared to do anything for a juicy beef burger but is that really enough to justify it? I don't think it is so why are we still doing it?

Sorry I feel really really strongly about this and I hope I didn't offend anyone in all of that.

Human race would face world wide famine in quick succession if it was decided that all meat was to be outlawed. How can you sustain a population of 6 bilion and growing on just wheats, fruits and veg. It's just not doable.

However that said i think like water it should not be taken for a commodity and should be properly looked at in terms of over use. Id rather see what meat is sold actually used instead of being put to waste and being of no use to anyone.

(Also i don't agree with the whole killing animals is wrong, it's part of our species mentality. However the mistreatment and cruel cultivation of animals to be slaughtered is definitely something that can be seen as morally wrong.)

Ginja Ninja

Stev_o wrote: »

Human race would face world wide famine in quick succession if it was decided that all meat was to be outlawed. How can you sustain a population of 6 bilion and growing on just wheats, fruits and veg. It's just not doable.

actually we'll starve even with meat and poultry but that's a whole other story

what always gets me is when people assume all animals live in these hellish situations,it's simply not like that ,welfare is top priority in all animal industries

jefreywithonef

I'm not sorry to interrupt such a serious thread with such a silly Simpsons scene.

Lisa: "I'm going to become a vegetarian."
Homer: "Does that mean you're not going to eat any pork?"
Lisa: "Yes."
Homer: "Bacon?"
Lisa: "Yes Dad."
Homer: "Ham?"
Lisa: "Dad all those meats come from the same animal!"
Homer: "Right Lisa, some wonderful, magical animal!"

Extrasupervery

I remember some random Simpsons episode where Lisa met a 'level 7 vegan' who didn't eat anything that cast a shadow. Lollerz.

sock puppet

ohthebaby wrote: »

And this circle of life mentality annoys me. Yes we are on top now. But as humans, we have a conscience. Killing animals is wrong. We no longer need to eat meat to survive as we may have in previous periods of history. I know it tastes nice and believe me there are times when I would be prepared to do anything for a juicy beef burger but is that really enough to justify it? I don't think it is so why are we still doing it?

Sorry I feel really really strongly about this and I hope I didn't offend anyone in all of that.

But people like you just have to accept that your lifestyle is a luxury that only the rich can afford. And unless you want to start eating your own crap then eating animals/animal products does serve a purpose.