Animal issues

Fad

Basically, I eat meat. I like the taste of meat. I'm not a big fan of the idea of eating meat, but in my current living situation now, I am not in a position to substitute it with anything (Not exactly a huge veg eater, so I'd just end up eating crap all). If I could cut meat out, I'd like to, ignoring all moral reasons, I just think I'd end up healthier.

I'm not a big advocate of animal "rights" to be honest (Especially in the whole them being equal, a la PETA/The ALF (Which are on the front page of the mirror or some rag like that today ) I do like the whole animal welfare thing. I dont think they have rights per say, but the idea of harming an animal anymore than absolutely nessecary just disgusts me tbh.

As for animal testing......there is no way around it. Drugs in this country HAVE TO be tested on animals before they can be released for sale. I'd like to think that the scientists that do it, do it in the most humane conditions possible, but I have my reservations. Campaigning against animal testing is just futile.

Fur trading is kinda horrible by and large, but I think there's such worse problems in society, when they're all sorted, I'll help fight animal cruelty in the fur trade....

Bobalicious93

But why do we take in dogs, cats etc. into our home and pamper them, treat them like part of the family, while other animals are simply bred for eating? Sounds pretty unfair.
If I was a pig or cow I wouldn't be happy that dogs and cats get to live in the lap of luxury, while I'm freezing my bollocks off in a field in the middle of Offaly with nothing but grass to eat.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, we should start eating cats and dogs* too. 'Tis only fair.

Awaits someone mentioning Korea...

Fad

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

But why do we take in dogs, cats etc. into our home and pamper them, treat them like part of the family, while other animals are simply bred for eating? Sounds pretty unfair.
If I was a pig or cow I wouldn't be happy that dogs and cats get to live in the lap of luxury, while I'm freezing my bollocks off in a field in the middle of Offaly with nothing but grass to eat.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, we should start eating cats and dogs* too. 'Tis only fair.

Awaits someone mentioning Korea...

Life isnt fair though.

KnifeWRENCH

I love meat and I could never be a vegetarian as I hate all vegetables. Tbh I don't feel bad about eating cows and I don't think it's morally wrong to kill a lamb and eat it. Groups like PETA that take animal welfare too far bug the hell out of me, as do militant vegetarians/vegans that try and force their beliefs on others.

Now with all that said, I think unnecessary cruelty to any animal IS wrong, and while I don't have a problem with hunting for food or hunting to protect livestock, I think hunting just for sport (e.g. shooting a deer dead just to stuff it or stick it's head over the mantlepiece) is cruel and pointless.

Monzo wrote: »

I'm not sorry to interrupt such a serious thread with such a silly Simpsons scene.

Lisa: "I'm going to become a vegetarian."
Homer: "Does that mean you're not going to eat any pork?"
Lisa: "Yes."
Homer: "Bacon?"
Lisa: "Yes Dad."
Homer: "Ham?"
Lisa: "Dad all those meats come from the same animal!"
Homer: "Right Lisa, some wonderful, magical animal!"

"Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about! "

Bobalicious93 wrote:

But why do we take in dogs, cats etc. into our home and pamper them, treat them like part of the family, while other animals are simply bred for eating? Sounds pretty unfair

Dogs and cats are cute. Pigs and cows not so much.
It's horribly unfair, but c'est la vie.

Davidius

CokaColumbo wrote: »

The way I see it, we humans have developed a sense of morality and generally understand the difference between what is right and what is wrong. It is this morality that stops us, as a society, from doing things that are perfectly natural for us to do. This includes settling disputes with violence; abandoning your child; defecating in public; forcing yourself sexually onto others etc.

I think it's at least noteworthy that those moral codes generally work towards making sure humans can live together peacefully. They seem to exist with the intent of making a society as comfortable and workable as possible for everybody. It's not unheard of for morality to fly out the window once it's no longer feasible.

A note on why cats and dogs are generally kept as pets it's probably because their potential as a utility animal outweighs their potential as livestock. Though I do tend to avoid pork, I hear them pigs are smart little feckers.

Anyway I see killing animals as a necessary evil for the most part. I do believe that as many steps as possible should be made in making their lives comfortable and deaths painless. I also don't like to see them 'wasted' such as seeing them killed for anything weird like entertainment or purely for the sake of clothing.

jumpguy

Extrasupervery wrote: »

Since I went veggie I've refered to myself as an 'aspiring vegan'. I think it's about time to take that seriously...I did get awfully ill when I stopped eating meat though. Worth it? I think so.

This raises a sorta health issues point tbh, but since humans find it very difficult to live healthily without meat (mainly due to iron and I think protein deficiencies). Being a vegan/vegetarian I'd say it's far more important to watch your diet than if you were a non-vegetarian. You'd be watching your diet anyway to ensure you don't consume meat, but you'd also want to watch your diet to make sure you're getting all the nutrients you need. Is it not possible to live healthily as a vegan/vegetarian? Surely so (or does anyone know otherwise?). There are surely more sources of iron and protein than in meat, however, these may not be regularly consumed, which I think is the biggest problem as far as health concerns go.

TBH, I'd be rather worried if one of my friends or family decided to go vegetarian/vegan but their health began to deteriorate tbh...I wouldn't say "eat meat!" straight away though, just to eat more iron and vitamins or whatever they're deficient in.

phlegms

If I am eating a well looked/after free-range etc. piece of meat I have absolutely no qualms about it. If on the other hand I am eating a piece of meat that was raised in disgusting conditions and not given a proper chance to live in as natural an environment as possible I'd feel shíte. Thats about the full extent of my animal rights activism. As far as I can see, vegetarianism isn't a particularly healthy way to live. How sustainable is it to live on supplements for the rest of your life? Surely it can't be doing much good for you body in the long run. I'm very much of the opinion that as long as the meat has been properly raised, looked after, humanely slaughtered then I have absolutely no issue with eating meat. It's a completely natural way to live life and I have no moral issues with doing so. It has more to do with adequate farming techniques being promoted and maintained in the food industry than it does with some sort of hideous and inexcusable moral discrepancy I am committing by eating meat.

ohthebaby

sock puppet wrote: »

But people like you just have to accept that your lifestyle is a luxury that only the rich can afford. And unless you want to start eating your own crap then eating animals/animal products does serve a purpose.

If you are talking about Ireland / any developed western country, there is no way you can say that a vegetarian lifestyle is only one that the rich can afford! So to be honest I see no real excuses for eating meat except if a diet free from it was to cause severe health problems.

In third world countries yeah I have to accept that things are different. I still don't agree with the slaughter of animals but if that's the only way a starving child is going to survive then who am I to deny them. We are in the fortunate position of being able to reject the killing of animals as well as living healthy lives, they are not.

I know that is hypocritical saying they can kill and we can't. But I guess with regards to the treatment and slaughter of animals, I am concerned about the society we have the good fortune to live in and the possibilities we have to improve it.

ohthebaby

phlegms wrote: »

As far as I can see, vegetarianism isn't a particularly healthy way to live. How sustainable is it to live on supplements for the rest of your life? Surely it can't be doing much good for you body in the long run.

I don't agree. If you are reaching all of your nutritional requirements through the food you are eating, there's no need to take supplements. Speaking personally, in my own diet I meet pretty much all of the recommended daily intake of nutrients. You just have to do a bit of a research and plan meals in advance. If you put in the effort, it's a perfectly healthy way to live.

phlegms

ohthebaby wrote: »

I don't agree. If you are reaching all of your nutritional requirements through the food you are eating, there's no need to take supplements. Speaking personally, in my own diet I meet pretty much all of the recommended daily intake of nutrients. You just have to do a bit of a research and plan meals in advance. If you put in the effort, it's a perfectly healthy way to live.

I've heard too many stories of people having to give up the vegetarian life because it wasn't sustainable for them for me to take this statement at face value. Also, you said you have only been vegetarian for 5/6 years. Come back to me when you have lived the majority of your life as one and then lets see who is healthiest..

jumpguy

phlegms wrote: »

I've heard too many stories of people having to give up the vegetarian life because it wasn't sustainable for them for me to take this statement at face value. Also, you said you have only been vegetarian for 5/6 years. Come back to me when you have lived the majority of your life as one and then lets see who is healthiest..

Alot more things affect health than just food tbf. As long as you carefully monitor your nutrient and calorie intake (in most vegetarians cases, I'd say it'd be a case of making sure they get enough calories.) TBH, if everyone did that then levels of obesity and anorexia would be way down! But most of us don't carefully monitor our diet, and when you make the choice to become a vegetarian/vegan, I'd say most people think it's just "eat what you want except meat". Which it's not really, you have to make sure you fulfill all your dietary requirements if you make such a large restriction on your diet.

norwegianwood

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

But why do we take in dogs, cats etc. into our home and pamper them, treat them like part of the family, while other animals are simply bred for eating? Sounds pretty unfair.
If I was a pig or cow I wouldn't be happy that dogs and cats get to live in the lap of luxury, while I'm freezing my bollocks off in a field in the middle of Offaly with nothing but grass to eat.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, we should start eating cats and dogs* too. 'Tis only fair.

Awaits someone mentioning Korea...

Technically, cows are female, and therefore don't have bollocks...
Sorry....couldn't resist....:o

sock puppet

ohthebaby wrote: »

If you are talking about Ireland / any developed western country, there is no way you can say that a vegetarian lifestyle is only one that the rich can afford! So to be honest I see no real excuses for eating meat except if a diet free from it was to cause severe health problems.

In third world countries yeah I have to accept that things are different. I still don't agree with the slaughter of animals but if that's the only way a starving child is going to survive then who am I to deny them. We are in the fortunate position of being able to reject the killing of animals as well as living healthy lives, they are not.

I know that is hypocritical saying they can kill and we can't. But I guess with regards to the treatment and slaughter of animals, I am concerned about the society we have the good fortune to live in and the possibilities we have to improve it.

But only roughly a billion people live in the developed world. The vast majority of the world's people live neither in luxury nor abject poverty. Also in the long run, eating meat has no effect on the survival of a species. Cows will never go extinct as long as we keep breeding them. Whereas the fuel we use up posting on here contributes towards the possible future extinction of several species in the arctic circle.


As for the video which inspired this thread, It raises a lot of interesting points. Owners who allow their pets to breed need to held accountable for their actions imo. It wouldn't be that hard to enforce. Just make neutering pets a requirement when purchasing one. I also have concerns over the breeding of pure bred animals. Unless it serves a purpose, like with guard dogs, all it does is reduce the life span of pets.

Ginja Ninja

sock puppet wrote: »

But only roughly a billion people live in the developed world. The vast majority of the world's people live neither in luxury nor abject poverty. Also in the long run, eating meat has no effect on the survival of a species. Cows will never go extinct as long as we keep breeding them. Whereas the fuel we use up posting on here contributes towards the possible future extinction of several species in the arctic circle.


As for the video which inspired this thread, It raises a lot of interesting points. Owners who allow their pets to breed need to held accountable for their actions imo. It wouldn't be that hard to enforce. Just make neutering pets a requirement when purchasing one. I also have concerns over the breeding of pure bred animals. Unless it serves a purpose, like with guard dogs, all it does is reduce the life span of pets.

not to sound heartless but would a shorter life span on "pet animals" not help the problem overall,the big issue now is that there are too many pets then there are people who can care for them,but if they started dying out quicker[I know it's not fun to lose a pet,but think of how many are born in the ~15 years of a normal pet that don't get the same treatment] it's the surplus that does it,there are simply too many to be controlled[read:neuturing/spaying] even with all the sterilising that's done,there are more breeders than there are spayed pets

Pygmalion

I've lived in the country, the majority of farms (in this country of course) are lovely places where the animals roam free all day.
It kinda pisses me off when someone tries to rant about how mistreated all the animals are, I just get the impression that they've never actually left Dublin and been to one, they're just reciting facts from some leaflets/books/youtube videos they consider to be gospel.

Not that these leaflets/books/youtube videos are wrong per sé, but they're generally based on conditions in farms in developing countries (with maybe one or two closer to home, with the farm in question long after being shut down or improved), and it just seems deceitful to claim it's going on over here on a large scale.
But still, I guess "Most farms here are grand, but I have a moral problem with it so please stop k" isn't as effective as "Look at how evil every farmer in the world is!"

Arcade Panda

The more I read this thread the more I realise that I'm actually (some) vegitarians worst nightmare:o

I used to go fox hunting every St. Stephan's day and New Years day up until about two years ago. I only stopped when I couldn't afford to rent a horse anymore but if I had the money I know I'd be out there in a heartbeat!

My dad hunts pheasants. For the record my dad doesn't stuff them and hang them out of the rafters, we eat them. At first I didn't because I think pheasants are probably one of the most gorgeous animals out there and I didn't feel comfortable with it....but I got over that in about two weeks!

I love animals.
I just love eating animals as well.

Ginja Ninja

Arcade Panda wrote: »

I love animals.
I just love eating animals as well.

says it all quite well really

Extrasupervery

jumpguy wrote: »

This raises a sorta health issues point tbh, but since humans find it very difficult to live healthily without meat (mainly due to iron and I think protein deficiencies). Being a vegan/vegetarian I'd say it's far more important to watch your diet than if you were a non-vegetarian. You'd be watching your diet anyway to ensure you don't consume meat, but you'd also want to watch your diet to make sure you're getting all the nutrients you need. Is it not possible to live healthily as a vegan/vegetarian? Surely so (or does anyone know otherwise?). There are surely more sources of iron and protein than in meat, however, these may not be regularly consumed, which I think is the biggest problem as far as health concerns go.

TBH, I'd be rather worried if one of my friends or family decided to go vegetarian/vegan but their health began to deteriorate tbh...I wouldn't say "eat meat!" straight away though, just to eat more iron and vitamins or whatever they're deficient in.

I've got a much higher iron count than my entire meat-eating family

sock puppet

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

not to sound heartless but would a shorter life span on "pet animals" not help the problem overall,the big issue now is that there are too many pets then there are people who can care for them,but if they started dying out quicker[I know it's not fun to lose a pet,but think of how many are born in the ~15 years of a normal pet that don't get the same treatment] it's the surplus that does it,there are simply too many to be controlled[read:neuturing/spaying] even with all the sterilising that's done,there are more breeders than there are spayed pets

That's why neutering should be mandatory for every pet owner. As for breeders, they need to be properly regulated to stop puppy farms.

A Neurotic

Pygmalion wrote: »

I've lived in the country, the majority of farms (in this country of course) are lovely places where the animals roam free all day.
It kinda pisses me off when someone tries to rant about how mistreated all the animals are, I just get the impression that they've never actually left Dublin and been to one, they're just reciting facts from some leaflets/books/youtube videos they consider to be gospel.

Some would argue that, no matter how nice their environment is as they're raised, killing animals for food would constitute mistreatment.

Arcade Panda wrote:

I used to go fox hunting every St. Stephan's day and New Years day up until about two years ago. I only stopped when I couldn't afford to rent a horse anymore but if I had the money I know I'd be out there in a heartbeat!

No offence, but I will never understand fox hunting, or why it's permitted. Completely unnecessary cruelty in my opinion

I'm a big fat hypocrite. I eat meat and support the killing of animals when it's for the good of my belly. But I just cannot comprehend how people enjoy killing foxes.

Fad

A Neurotic wrote: »

Some would argue that, no matter how nice their environment is as they're raised, killing animals for food would constitute mistreatment.

Animals in the wild are under constant strain, the will never have enough food/water/shelter unless they are an apex predator.

So, while they might be slaughtered for food earlier, they arent necessarily "happier" in the wild.

Fad

Arcade Panda wrote: »

I used to go fox hunting every St. Stephan's day and New Years day up until about two years ago. I only stopped when I couldn't afford to rent a horse anymore but if I had the money I know I'd be out there in a heartbeat!

Like A Neurotic, I will never understand fox hunting.

I find it genuinely sickening.

norwegianwood

Fad wrote: »

Like A Neurotic, I will never understand fox hunting.

I find it genuinely sickening.

Agreed. I know a couple of people who go fox hunting, and if I ask them why, all they can say to justify it is that it's a 'good laugh'. Plenty of ways you can have a laugh without murdering a living thing...

Arcade Panda

A Neurotic wrote: »

No offence, but I will never understand fox hunting, or why it's permitted. Completely unnecessary cruelty in my opinion

No offence taken, it's a reasonable argument! Thinking about it, it's not really something I can defend. It's a pretty selfish sport.

The one thing I can say though is that out of all the hunts I've been on, which when I count it up is quite a few, three fox's were caught(and out of those three only one was killed, the others let go). People don't understand how hard is to hunt fox's when your in a group of maybe sixty/seventy horses. It's practically impossible. Fox's have ears:)

For the most part hunting is about the thrill of the chase and nothing else. And a very small margin of fox's are actually killed.(I'm speaking for my area now, I havn't a clue about anywhere else.)

Ginja Ninja

Arcade Panda wrote: »

No offence taken, it's a reasonable argument! Thinking about it, it's not really something I can defend. It's a pretty selfish sport.

The one thing I can say though is that out of all the hunts I've been on, which when I count it up is quite a few, three fox's were caught(and out of those three only one was killed, the others let go). People don't understand how hard is to hunt fox's when your in a group of maybe sixty/seventy horses. It's practically impossible. Fox's have ears:)

For the most part hunting is about the thrill of the chase and nothing else. And a very small margin of fox's are actually killed.(I'm speaking for my area now, I havn't a clue about anywhere else.)

nah,it's like that in most places,when it comes to traditional hunting,animals have one thing most humans lack, common sense

suitcasepink

Arcade Panda wrote: »

No offence taken, it's a reasonable argument! Thinking about it, it's not really something I can defend. It's a pretty selfish sport.

The one thing I can say though is that out of all the hunts I've been on, which when I count it up is quite a few, three fox's were caught(and out of those three only one was killed, the others let go). People don't understand how hard is to hunt fox's when your in a group of maybe sixty/seventy horses. It's practically impossible. Fox's have ears:)

For the most part hunting is about the thrill of the chase and nothing else. And a very small margin of fox's are actually killed.(I'm speaking for my area now, I havn't a clue about anywhere else.)

I agree with this, I know iswell from experience that the vast majority of times foxes arent caught let alone killed. Some people seem to have an idea in their head each time you go out loads are going to be killed, couldnt be further from the truth.
Alot of people dont go hunting for fox hunting. People yee have no idea the excitment of a chase, it is unreal having the horse gallop under ya, with a big gang of people, its so exciting and fun!
So yeh alot of people that go fox hunting just fgo for the chase not the actual capturing of a fox..
On the note of hunting you know what I hate? Protesters that come with their whistles, big signs and shouting, all it does is scare the hell outta the horse your on, its ridiculous! Protesting for an animlas well being while upsetting another!

Now this is gone off topic kinda, ive gone into hunting detailedly.
Im not really sure what to say about eating meat etc yet, Im gonna think that out first.

A Neurotic

This was just posted on the Expand Your Horizons forum. Seemed vaguely interesting/relevant.

Arcade Panda

deise_girl wrote: »

People yee have no idea the excitment of a chase, it is unreal having the horse gallop under ya, with a big gang of people, its so exciting and fun!

But ya going off topic again:) It's a great feeling......Nothing else compares to it, it's almost like your flying, incredible.

Fad

deise_girl wrote: »

People yee have no idea the excitment of a chase, it is unreal having the horse gallop under ya, with a big gang of people, its so exciting and fun!

I'm sorry, I just cannot begin to fathom how you can justify scaring an animal absolutely shítless in the pursuit of a thrill

suitcasepink

Fad wrote: »

I'm sorry, I just cannot begin to fathom how you can justify scaring an animal absolutely shítless in the pursuit of a thrill

Well as I said earlier, alot of it your chasing the hounds, not a fox.
Seriously in fox hunting your not chasing a load of foxes for the whole time, killing them all. Ive been on some where we didnt even see a fox, let alone kill it!
And chasing often doesnt last that long eitehr, they'll go into different land or somwhere the horses cant get. As horrible as it is their wild animals theyre used to being chased, and they have to be to survive.