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Animal issues
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deise_girl wrote: »Well as I said earlier, alot of it your chasing the hounds, not a fox.
Seriously in fox hunting your not chasing a load of foxes for the whole time, killing them all. Ive been on some where we didnt even see a fox, let alone kill it!
And chasing often doesnt last that long eitehr, they'll go into different land or somwhere the horses cant get. As horrible as it is their wild animals theyre used to being chased, and they have to be to survive.
I really don't think the fox gives a **** to be honest
I hunted for six years and out of those six years one fox was killed(and that year the farmers specifically asked for whatever fox's were caught to be killed because they were killing sheep). And Deise's right, you rarely see a fox! We saw the fox once in Dromineer, it ran out of an orchard. The huntmaster called off the dogs and the fox was let go. Normally once you get a good chase and a look at the fox, the hunt moves on. 0 -
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I've heard too many stories of people having to give up the vegetarian life because it wasn't sustainable for them for me to take this statement at face value. Also, you said you have only been vegetarian for 5/6 years. Come back to me when you have lived the majority of your life as one and then lets see who is healthiest..
It's on!A Neurotic wrote: »Some would argue that, no matter how nice their environment is as they're raised, killing animals for food would constitute mistreatment.
No offence, but I will never understand fox hunting, or why it's permitted. Completely unnecessary cruelty in my opinion
I'm a big fat hypocrite. I eat meat and support the killing of animals when it's for the good of my belly. But I just cannot comprehend how people enjoy killing foxes.
I share your views here with the foxhunting. It is genuinely beyond me how this is still allowed.deise_girl wrote: »I agree with this, I know iswell from experience that the vast majority of times foxes arent caught let alone killed. Some people seem to have an idea in their head each time you go out loads are going to be killed, couldnt be further from the truth.
Alot of people dont go hunting for fox hunting. People yee have no idea the excitment of a chase, it is unreal having the horse gallop under ya, with a big gang of people, its so exciting and fun!
So yeh alot of people that go fox hunting just fgo for the chase not the actual capturing of a fox..
On the note of hunting you know what I hate? Protesters that come with their whistles, big signs and shouting, all it does is scare the hell outta the horse your on, its ridiculous! Protesting for an animlas well being while upsetting another!
Now this is gone off topic kinda, ive gone into hunting detailedly.
Im not really sure what to say about eating meat etc yet, Im gonna think that out first.
The point is that a hunt sets out to hunt a fox. No matter if one is killed or not, that's still the aim of the game.
Exciting, fun, horse galloping under you... Do you really need to chase a fox to experience all of these things??I'm sorry, I just cannot begin to fathom how you can justify scaring an animal absolutely shítless in the pursuit of a thrill
Snap.deise_girl wrote: »Well as I said earlier, alot of it your chasing the hounds, not a fox.
Seriously in fox hunting your not chasing a load of foxes for the whole time, killing them all. Ive been on some where we didnt even see a fox, let alone kill it!
And chasing often doesnt last that long eitehr, they'll go into different land or somwhere the horses cant get. As horrible as it is their wild animals theyre used to being chased, and they have to be to survive.
Wow the chase doesn't last long but guess what! There still was a chase! And hunters still set out with catching a fox in mind. Just because they are wild does not justify their hunting. Yes they have to be able to survive in their own natural environment but releasing a pack of blood thirsty hounds followed by numerous galloping horses on a fox is hardly an example of the natural chain of life.
Anyway this all this hunting has taken over from the whole meat eating issue. But sure it's still an animal issue I suppose.0 -
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oh dear. only just found this thread, so got a lot to catch up on... this is gonna be a long post, i suspect.
i suppose from the off, ill just state my stance. been vegetarian for a few years, in the process of going vegan, for odd health reasons, drinking milk has been something of a necessity lately, though i dont consume any other dairy products, and usually use rice milk.
the idea of killing for food when i can get my nutrition elsewhere just doesnt sit well with me. i dont go preaching to everyone i see eating meat, but i will share my views if the conversation turns this way. the way i see it is that we all have to do what we have to do to sleep well at night.
i dislike the farming of animals in general, particularly factory farming, but even in free range farming, there's too many things that dont sit right with me, such as the short life span free range chickens tend to have, or that males tend to be killed as they're not as wanted as females.
i detest animal testing and will go out of my way to avoid using products that have used animal tests.
i wont wear leather, but and havent bought any wool items in over a year, but i still wear the ones that i owned before going vegan.
i disagree with hunting in general, but my conscience would be cleaner if i was to eat some pork that lived in the wild than had been bought in the supermarket.
right, now to reply to some of the comments made so far... :pac:Ginja Ninja wrote: »reality check it's kill or be killed it has been for millions of years,right now we're on top and that's how it'll be for a while.Yes,I'll admit people can be heartless and cruel,so can animals and so can both to those of their own species.The world isn't a happy and rosey place,accept it dude and move on[at the narrator]
first, i have an issue with just accepting that the world isnt rosy, and consequently participating in the crappy bits. i dont believe in just accepting things i dislike, if there's a possibility of changing for the positive.
second, kill or be killed... by a cow? or a chicken?degausserxo wrote: »Circle of life. I have beef (tssh!) with vegans and vegetarians who are so for any reason other than health ones. But it's late, and I shall explain tomorrow.
is your beef with veggies who try to force their beliefs on you, or is it just with people who make a personal choice about the things they buy and eat? fair enough if it's the first, but build a bridge and get over it if it's the second.
the fact is, though, we dont actually need all this meat. it's not made to a high quality standard and it's becoming less safe, the more short cuts and mass production that are involved in the industry. (ever seen Food Inc?). and people dont actually need to eat meat, particularly red meat, every day, especially not twice a day. you can get protein from cheaper sources that dont carry associations such as high cholesterol, fat, or cancer (look at most carnivores, they have short bowels, expel the meat very quickly. humans have longer bowels and there are several links to meat eating and bowel cancer).Ginja Ninja wrote: »the conditions are,the way they are because producers have no other options,even at it's most efficient[and that's what it's about not cruelty]Dairy farmers in almost every country except new zealand and the US lose money by producing milk
milk is actually extremely expensive in new zealand, because the farmers here all export it to be processed, then it's imported back and sold. cheese particularly is massively expensive here. (eh, yeah, i live in new zealand).but if you feel like paying enough money so that I can get through college AND be nice to the animals,then starts forking over.It's all very nice hoping it's done to a certain standard,we all still have to make a life out of it,regardless of your opinion
this is the reason that i actually went vegetarian, initially, after learning about factory farms, i decided to only eat free range meat... then discovered that i couldnt afford to eat it... so cut meat out of my diet entirely, and have never looked back
Ginja Ninja wrote: »If you were caught in a lions hunt it wouldn't pause to give you the right not to be treated like lunch and i don't want to be the arrogant one who says that we treat it any different to the way the rules the world works on
when the lions start keeping us in enclosures, and allowing us to breed purely so there'll be more of us for them to eat so they dont have to bother hunting any more, i might agree. not to mention that lions can't survive too well on vegetation, whereas humans are actually quite able to do it, from a nutritional point of view.I don't eat much meat, only chicken and turkey at Christmas, but that's because I don't like the taste of most meats. Animal welfare is important, but most animals are well treated (free range eggs and the like) and so on. Abit tired to write a big yoke about this.
im not too sure about the stats on this in ireland, but i know that in new zealand, while the majority (just over 50%) of pig farmers treat their pigs well, free range and all that... the majority of pigs are raised in factory farms and sow stalls. which means that while the majority of farmers treat their animals well... the majority of animals, are actually not well treated. also, with free range eggs, the hens tend to be killed relatively young, once they stop producing eggs as frequently, as well as the male chicks being gassed shortly after birth, as they're un-needed.Animal welfare is important, as well as conservation, but animals will always be hunted and killed, because humans are omnivores.
i do agree with this though. can't say im 100% happy about it, but i can't imagine a full vegetarian society.I love animals. I am, however, in no way against animals being used as a source of nutrition. As long as the life they live is not comprised of being boxed up. Free range is acceptable in my opinion.
I really think it's not right to blame humans for eating animals. It's primal instinct. We are omnivores.
as has been already mentioned, we are highly evolved enough at this point to be able to make a choice, based on our own ethics, morals, and conscience. particularly in the first world, it is quite easy, and often cheaper to live on a vegetarian diet (vegan gets a little trickier, but also a whole lot healthier).
as a matter of curiosity, do you only eat free range meat, and refuse all else?Human race would face world wide famine in quick succession if it was decided that all meat was to be outlawed. How can you sustain a population of 6 bilion and growing on just wheats, fruits and veg. It's just not doable.
have you any idea how many crops are grown just to feed the animals we're going to eat? over one third of all the grains grown in the world are fed to animals, while people are starving. in the first world, it is totally possible to live healthily on an animal free diet, and the third world could really benefit from growing crops to feed themselves, instead of cash crops to sell for animal feed.Id rather see what meat is sold actually used instead of being put to waste and being of no use to anyone.
totally agree with this.Ginja Ninja wrote: »what always gets me is when people assume all animals live in these hellish situations,it's simply not like that ,welfare is top priority in all animal industries
i wouldnt say 'all'.sock puppet wrote: »But people like you just have to accept that your lifestyle is a luxury that only the rich can afford. And unless you want to start eating your own crap then eating animals/animal products does serve a purpose.
i am dirt poor, i work part time on minimum wage, my partner is a beneficiary. between the two of us, really not a lot of money at all. we definitely couldnt afford to eat meat, really, even if we did want to, and i can tell you now, any we did eat, would be pure crap.
and what's this about eating my own crap?As for animal testing......there is no way around it. Drugs in this country HAVE TO be tested on animals before they can be released for sale. I'd like to think that the scientists that do it, do it in the most humane conditions possible, but I have my reservations. Campaigning against animal testing is just futile.
check out some of the alternatives to animal testing. and i can go on an extensive rent about how inaccurate, pointless, dangerous and cruel it is. ill avoid the rant unless you (or someone else) asks me to elaborateFur trading is kinda horrible by and large, but I think there's such worse problems in society, when they're all sorted, I'll help fight animal cruelty in the fur trade....
i agree with you to a degree, but personally, i think it's ok for everyone to find a cause they believe in, and to work towards achieving that. which of the other more important causes are you actively supporting or campaigning towards right now, before you get round to helping fight animal cruelty in the fur trade?This raises a sorta health issues point tbh, but since humans find it very difficult to live healthily without meat (mainly due to iron and I think protein deficiencies). Being a vegan/vegetarian I'd say it's far more important to watch your diet than if you were a non-vegetarian. You'd be watching your diet anyway to ensure you don't consume meat, but you'd also want to watch your diet to make sure you're getting all the nutrients you need. Is it not possible to live healthily as a vegan/vegetarian? Surely so (or does anyone know otherwise?). There are surely more sources of iron and protein than in meat, however, these may not be regularly consumed, which I think is the biggest problem as far as health concerns go.
as someone who spent my teens eating my meat and two veg, and was severely anemic during that time, i am a lot healthier, fitter, and just feel so much better in myself since being vegan. it's a pain in the arse checking labels sometimes, it's incredible how many things have milk products in them.TBH, I'd be rather worried if one of my friends or family decided to go vegetarian/vegan but their health began to deteriorate tbh...I wouldn't say "eat meat!" straight away though, just to eat more iron and vitamins or whatever they're deficient in.
my sister, who's obsessed with nutrition (in 6th year, top of her home ec class and intends doing nutritional studies or something in college next year), was really worried when i told her i was going vegan, until i explained to her how my diet was actually working and she conceded it's actually healthier than hers.How sustainable is it to live on supplements for the rest of your life? Surely it can't be doing much good for you body in the long run. I'm very much of the opinion that as long as the meat has been properly raised, looked after, humanely slaughtered then I have absolutely no issue with eating meat.
as already mentioned, i am not deficient in any vitamins, minerals or other essential nutrients, and havent taken any supplements since my mammy forced that awful cod liver oil into me :pac:I've heard too many stories of people having to give up the vegetarian life because it wasn't sustainable for them for me to take this statement at face value. Also, you said you have only been vegetarian for 5/6 years. Come back to me when you have lived the majority of your life as one and then lets see who is healthiest..
if they do it right and eat a balanced diet, then it's almost guaranteed the vegetarian, or better yet, the vegan, will be healthier than the omnivore in this case.
phew, that was a lot of replies interesting thread though, it's rare i actually read all the replies of a thread like this one, even rarer i actually post my replies :pac: 0 -
Crumble Froo wrote: »check out some of the alternatives to animal testing. and i can go on an extensive rent about how inaccurate, pointless, dangerous and cruel it is. ill avoid the rant unless you (or someone else) asks me to elaborate
I'm just saying locally, there's not a chance that the requirement of a drug being tested on animals will be removed any time soon. So protesting against it in terms of drugs is absolutely futile.
Testing make up and shít on animals is just unessecary, I agree with you there.0 -
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I'm just saying locally, there's not a chance that the requirement of a drug being tested on animals will be removed any time soon. So protesting against it in terms of drugs is absolutely futile.
why not, though? why can't it be changed for a relevant, accurate method? animal testing is not safe. leave the animal rights part out of it, it's actually unsafe for humans. why can't it be changed in favour of modern, accurate methods, which in the long run will work out a lot cheaper. just because the requirements are out dated, doesnt mean that they should stay that way. which is why it's important to protest and campaign against it.sock puppet wrote: »I wasn't referring to any westernised nations. I was talking more about countries where there aren't a lot of these foods available.
that's fair, but very different circumstances. in the western world, it is entirely plausible to get all your nutritional goodness from non-animal derived foods. we do have the choice. i get that not everyone wants to make the same one as me, but we do have the luxury of choosing.The crap bit was just a joke. After all, human faeces is an excellent source of vitamin b12:pac:
and hepatitis a
:pac:0 -
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Extrasupervery wrote: »Well I'm trying my best...I'll report back positive news I hope.
I"ma get some dairy free chocolate tomorrow
Good luck! I have faith in you bbz.0 -
Extrasupervery wrote: »Well I'm trying my best...I'll report back positive news I hope.
I"ma get some dairy free chocolate tomorrow
Have you been cutting back on dairy etc lately or did you just stop suddenly?
Also:I"ma
Hopefully your new diet will teach you not to talk like an urchin0 -
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I have to say, fair play to vegan's, there's no way I could do it, survive without chocolate and ice cream no way I could do it.
it's all about alternatives! i eat dark chocolate now, which took a little bit of getting used to, but i am a lot less likely to binge on it than with milk chocolate. also, im just lucky that skittles in nz are vegan, or i could never have lasted, but the skittles are good, and good licourice is easy to come by here too, which is also vegan, and im very fond of. and salt crisps, though it's trickier finding salt and vinegar (seemingly the addition of vinegar requires milk solids).
ice cream's trickier, but it is possible to get alternative milk product ice cream, think soy's the most common.Eliseo Careful Serf wrote: »Just found this thread now, so I think anything I wanted to say (most of which would basically have been a ctrl+v job from the Vegan and Veggies forum anyway) has been said much more eloquently and calmly by CrumbleFroo and others already, interesting read though.
wow. those two words. in the same sentence.
wow. this may be a first for me.0 -
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