Leaving Cert and Degree's to get Harder

felic

Todays Echo has a very interesting article on an investigation into why Leaving Cert students getting the perfect 600 points have risen by 500% in the last 10 years and likewise, the number of graduates attaining the once impossible 1H degree!
I for one am delighted this has been noticed as current trend in exam paper dumbing down has just about reached a point of ridicule, making an idiot out of the student population giving them nothing short of blind and deluded egos as well as making a joke of our once prestigious degrees.

Very interesting that this has been noted at a time when fees are just about to be reintroduced.

FredBaby!

I read a similiar article in the Irish Times today, now that you mention it. For years it's been easy for anyone to get enough points even if they havn't worked a bit during the two years which is very annoying for life long swots such as myself. Its good that this has been raised now with EVERYONE trying to hunker down in uni until the recession is over.

felic

Exactly. Im one of these so called life long swots as well and I really worked my butt off back when I was doing my Leaving. Back then, it was feasible to let topics out of certain subjects and really really focus on the topics you liked, do really deep research and really excel in the exam. But unfortunately for me, the topics I had really learned inside out and backwards to front didn't come up on 2 or 3 of my subjects and hence I missed out on the A1's that I had been expecting. There were tears on results day and Ill never forget it. Back then, the idea of having to repeat nearly broke my heart and mind. But things worked out ok.

But now, years on, and out of interest I picked up a copy of the recent exam papers... the tears returned! The standard is nowhere near what it once was. The papers now all show you exactly where to get the marks and where to focus on. That was not the case before and you really needed to be on the ball, very bright and have a hell of a lot of work done to do well. Now you just have to have the work done... and even at that, there is simply very little in terms of challenging on these new recent papers than what there used to be.

I fully respect current students as with everything in life, all is relative. But if these current Leaving Cert students were slapped with exams in June of the standard we got when we were doing the Leaving, I think there woul;d be many many tears and absolute uproar! And to think that people years prior to our Leaving Cert were saying even back then that the exams had been dumbed down. Would love to hear what those students say 10 years ahead of me would think if they saw todays papers.

Same goes for university. All anyone seems to have to do now is look at past exam papers. The amount of repetition isnt even funny. And repeat exams from Summer to Autumn are almost identical papers.
Investigation? They wont need to look far to figure out whats going on.

Seloth

I know Im going to ge blasted but I'm a current LC student and things are difficult enough.

NOw I can see how people would complain about them being dumbed won but I can only imagine the stress the LC must have invoked then.I'm only getting my butt to work now((For instance I did study in school today from half 3 to half 8)) and the pressure has been on me all year.

As well as this I'm guessing its a way for the gov to get more people into higher education.

mahamageehad

felic wrote: »

Todays Echo has a very interesting article on an investigation into why Leaving Cert students getting the perfect 600 points have risen by 500% in the last 10 years and likewise, the number of graduates attaining the once impossible 1H degree!
I for one am delighted this has been noticed as current trend in exam paper dumbing down has just about reached a point of ridicule, making an idiot out of the student population giving them nothing short of blind and deluded egos as well as making a joke of our once prestigious degrees.

Very interesting that this has been noted at a time when fees are just about to be reintroduced.

What now?

Cian92

I reckon the exams have become more student friendly, better layed out etc. We are also better prepared, grinds, essays being learned off, predictions. The project maths is one example of a subject being dumbed down.

How will this affect us, will it mean the marking schemes will be under pressure to mark the exams tougher this year? In turn will that mean those competing for CAO places from previous LC's have an advantage up on us?

Evan93

I agree that some subjects have been dumbed down, but some others haven't. For instance, honours maths is still a relatively hard subject for the bright student. Applied Maths has not changed in 30+ years. But these 2 are exceptions. It's true that nearly all subjects have been dumbed down. However, if the bright,hard working student of today sat a paper from x number of years back, they would achieve a rewarding grade. It's still difficult to attain an A1 in any subject , and , A1's seem to seperate the hard workers from the average student. Nowadays, it's just easier to grasp a B or a high C but the A1 is still fairly hard to achieve.

rainbowtrout

Evan93 wrote: »

I agree that some subjects have been dumbed down, but some others haven't. For instance, honours maths is still a relatively hard subject for the bright student. Applied Maths has not changed in 30+ years. But these 2 are exceptions. It's true that nearly all subjects have been dumbed down. However, if the bright,hard working student of today sat a paper from x number of years back, they would achieve a rewarding grade. It's still difficult to attain an A1 in any subject , and , A1's seem to seperate the hard workers from the average student. Nowadays, it's just easier to grasp a B or a high C but the A1 is still fairly hard to achieve.

you should take a look at the project maths sample papers! The last bastion of real difficulty in the leaving cert is being waved goodbye!

But it's the same in universities as the report in the paper says. Myself and my brother both went to UL. He graduated in 2005 with a pass degree (he didn't work very hard) in Environmental Science. His girlfriend did the same degree but was a year behind him. His average was pulled down in second year because he failed his chemistry exams. He was horrified to find the modules he failed (and subsequently repeated) were dropped from his girlfriends degree because they were now deemed unnecessary. His thinking was that he got a pass degree but did more chemistry, and plenty of people coming behind him got honours degrees because the difficult modules were removed from the course, but came out with less knowledge, But at a glance his qualification doesn't look as good.

I see it now with the course I did. I did 6 modules per term when I was there, the prospectus now shows the course outline where there is only 5 modules per term. So less work is being done for the same qualification.

pathway33

discussed >>>>>> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055842053 and >>>>> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055842089

Bradence93!

in all honesty i find the whole leaving cert exams being marked harder is purely ridiclous!!!!!:O
im a present leaving cert student and in my opinion wer under enough pressure waht with there being an average of 1 place for every 2 cao applicants!!!!!
what does it mean for those applicants out there who have re-applied to cao??????:S
basically, in my opinion, they have an easier chace of getting the places than those of us who will sit the exam in june!!!!!!:(

Lawliet

Bradence93! wrote: »

in all honesty i find the whole leaving cert exams being marked harder is purely ridiclous!!!!!:O
im a present leaving cert student and in my opinion wer under enough pressure waht with there being an average of 1 place for every 2 cao applicants!!!!!

Personally I'm in favour of them marking this year's leaving harder. If it separates the students who really know their stuff from the ones who only half know it, then all the better for those of us who have been working hard.

felic

In my opinion, I think this issue has only be brought into attention as a result of the increased CAO applications this year. I don't know who really has the advantage. People who did the Leaving say 10 years ago who would have done harder papers, or the latest current LC students who face softer papers? I mean, from the point of view of current Leaving Cert students, they really don't know the difference between the papers of now and the past and so their study methods will have been adjusted to suit what they have been taught.

The problem does not lie with students. It lies with the department and Mary Hannifan has a lot to answer for. Not only has she produced a Leaving Cert that has been very watered down, not only has she watered down University degree standards, all in favour of boosting high achiever ratings... but now shes making a mess of The Social Welfare System as well, making a lot more unnecessary work and what will be perceived as unfair implementations by anyone who now tries to correct and address the issues that have been highlighted.

What a mess!
I really don't think these things will affect students this year. The exams have been set since October and marking schemes are drawn up at the same time. Same goes for the fees. But its upcoming students... those who are now in the Junior Cycle, that will probably be the ones to suffer from all this. Knock on affect of the Recession and a badly managed government who dont have the intelligence to get themselves or the country out of the hole they were only too eager to dig!

What a joke this country has become.
This new Maths program? I will not be in the least bit surprised if it gets scrapped. Making guinea pigs of students is just not right and has massive consequences for their futures! I for one am glad I did the harder exams that presented the challenges. But thats not what the current system is concerned with. Its all about getting the highest points or degree level... not the quality of the students work or education.

fufureida

Its funny, cus I always hear ppl moan about how teachers had it easy and we have it hard...but suddenly we have it easy?

randylonghorn

fufureida wrote: »

Its funny, cus I always hear ppl moan about how teachers had it easy and we have it hard...but suddenly we have it easy?

I think the stress associated with LC has risen ... but that isn't because the standards have risen imho.

barry181091

IMO it's all relative.

When my dad did his LC back in the mid 70's he got 4 C's and 2 D's and he got into engineerig in NUIG, he also could of done the Medicne couse.

So it may be easier to get higher marks now, but it also takes alot more marks to get into courses so it's all relative really.

LiNgWiStIkZ

If the papers were to get harder for example, would it start this year?

Conor108

Hope not!

Between this, points being on the rise and CAO applications up 10% we really are an unlucky year....

pathway33

LiNgWiStIkZ wrote: »

If the papers were to get harder for example, would it start this year?

Papers are set now I imagine. They can always tinker with the marking scheme though.

pathway33

Conor108 wrote: »

Hope not!

Between this, points being on the rise and CAO applications up 10% we really are an unlucky year....

if they made the papers rock hard the points would go down

Seloth

TBH anyone I see posting they should be made hard I actually would spit on.

Im going to be straight and say I had an emotional break down just over and hour ago about my LC as I'm now trying to work hard for it.Im not going for high points,just 360.

People who did there LC when they were harder had much more choice in careers without degree's and such..now most jobs require you too have one.

Another thingto mention is many Universitys and colledges are no longer big enough,My history teacher who also lectures in UCC complained several times about this,when discussing Colraine.

pathway33

The minister has tonight said that grade inflation is not a problem in the leaving cert http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0304/education.html

jumpguy

barry181091 wrote: »

IMO it's all relative.

When my dad did his LC back in the mid 70's he got 4 C's and 2 D's and he got into engineerig in NUIG, he also could of done the Medicne couse.

So it may be easier to get higher marks now, but it also takes alot more marks to get into courses so it's all relative really.

This.

Also, in the past, education was not as critical. My parents never went to college or anything, as well as most of my friends parents. Infact, alot didn't even do the LC. Those that did go to colleges didn't go requiring high points.

Nowadays, there's a new trend. 3rd level education helps make a bright future of prosperity more possible for everyone, and with the Celtic tiger alot more parents can afford university and college and there is far less emigration.

I hate these trash articles that come out, and the first thing they saw is "the exams have gotten easier" without examining other causes, just for a public interest story and how our society and education is unravelling, and whatever other rubbish they can think of that'll outrage the people. I'd like to see the authors of these articles come in and sit the honours maths exam, or chemistry, or physics and see how they fare. Dumbing down my arse. Why not "better taught"?

It's abit insulting for hard-working LC students everywhere aiming for high points, being told by these up-their-hole journalists that we're being dumbed down.

Also, there's only around 150 600 points students every year.

**Timbuk2**

Well, as far as I know, the papers for 2010 are already written, so they can't really be made harder. However, the Marking Schemes can, so I could imagine they'll be less generous with the marks, so we'll just have to work that bit harder.

I hate all these conceptions about the LC getting easier. Yes, that's true for some subjects such as HL Maths and HL Irish, but some subjects are getting harder. I'd gladly take any Accounting paper from the late 90's early 00's over the ones that came up in 2008 and 2009.

Behind you Joey

All papers are printed in October, Mid-November. I couldn't imagine the standard jumping up this year, but maybe next year?

Seloth

My Bio teacher told us numerouse times how there can be easy question with a hard/Strict marking scheme visa versa.

Anthony16

felic wrote: »

Exactly. Im one of these so called life long swots as well and I really worked my butt off back when I was doing my Leaving. Back then, it was feasible to let topics out of certain subjects and really really focus on the topics you liked, do really deep research and really excel in the exam. But unfortunately for me, the topics I had really learned inside out and backwards to front didn't come up on 2 or 3 of my subjects and hence I missed out on the A1's that I had been expecting. There were tears on results day and Ill never forget it. Back then, the idea of having to repeat nearly broke my heart and mind. But things worked out ok.

But now, years on, and out of interest I picked up a copy of the recent exam papers... the tears returned! The standard is nowhere near what it once was. The papers now all show you exactly where to get the marks and where to focus on. That was not the case before and you really needed to be on the ball, very bright and have a hell of a lot of work done to do well. Now you just have to have the work done... and even at that, there is simply very little in terms of challenging on these new recent papers than what there used to be.

I fully respect current students as with everything in life, all is relative. But if these current Leaving Cert students were slapped with exams in June of the standard we got when we were doing the Leaving, I think there woul;d be many many tears and absolute uproar! And to think that people years prior to our Leaving Cert were saying even back then that the exams had been dumbed down. Would love to hear what those students say 10 years ahead of me would think if they saw todays papers.

Same goes for university. All anyone seems to have to do now is look at past exam papers. The amount of repetition isnt even funny. And repeat exams from Summer to Autumn are almost identical papers.
Investigation? They wont need to look far to figure out whats going on.

Out of interst,what course did/are you doing?You seem to have a good understanding of the education system in ireland