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Irelands Independence Day: 24th of April 1916

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    #62
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    Read this wrote: »
    er - but there was a German plot. Didn't (Sir) Roger Casement get arrested in 1916 after being caught red handed with a shipload full of German guns?

    Those alive at the time are now dead and buried, but it is a pretty common social phenomenon in all countries were there are extremist politics, that the extremists within their own community will intimidate moderates either into minding their own business, or compliance.

    There were plenty of dyed in the wool republicans yes - but don't pretend they were a majority in the country - they were not. Most people were apathetic and went with the flow - as they do today. Back then people were not as well educated and were more susceptible to rabble rousing.

    One of the mods mentioned that the Sinn Fein manifesto had been widely circulated. Take a look at the 1911 census. That will give you some idea as to how many people could actually read it.


    There was also a German Plot in 1918, when a majority of the members of Dail Eireann and Sinn Fein movement were arrested on suspicion of "renewed" association with Germany. This was proved and ackowledged later to be forgeries and false and a complete effort to undermine Dail Eireann and the Republican movement in the eyes of the world, noting the Versaille Peace Conference. Britian's Dirty War tactics were not born in the Troubles you know

    I accepted that there is not a majority, nor was their ever a majority of Irish men and women who were dyed in the wool Irish Republicans.


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    #63
    Read this
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭Read this


    People who are not willing to re-examine the historical record are apt to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    Obviously I am arguing against a bunch of rabid Sinn Feiners. No point.

    (Not you walrusgumble - at least you are attempting to engage me in some debate)


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    #64
    SlabMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭SlabMurphy


    Read this wrote: »
    People who are not willing to re-examine the historical record are apt to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    Obviously I am arguing against a bunch of rabid Sinn Feiners. No point.

    (Not you walrusgumble - at least you are attempting to engage me in some debate)
    " Obviously I am arguing against a bunch of rabid Sinn Feiners. "

    dontfeedthetroll.jpg


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    #65
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Read this wrote: »
    People who are not willing to re-examine the historical record are apt to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    Obviously I am arguing against a bunch of rabid Sinn Feiners. No point.

    You are not re-examining the record - you are inventing a new one to suit your own agenda and your own prejudiced views. You ignore that part of counter-arguments that you can't deal with - or only deal with by replying with insults. And obviously you are not open minded so - no point.


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    #66
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    Read this wrote: »
    People who are not willing to re-examine the historical record are apt to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    Obviously I am arguing against a bunch of rabid Sinn Feiners. No point.

    (Not you walrusgumble - at least you are attempting to engage me in some debate)

    My last two posts were basically a repeat of what others said (though those two posts are a repeat of what I have stated in other similar posts) I think your comment is unfair here. No one, absolutely no one would say that a majority of Irish people back then were die in the wool republicans. People can't and people have not sad this on this thread, obvious proof was the turn to Constitutionalism of O'Connell, Butt, Parnell and Redmond.

    The reason why many here have not acknowledged some matters which I seem to have acknowledged for debate purposes and decency, is that most people are not disagreeing and acknowledge it without a need to say anything.

    I am sorry, but I agree with March DUB here, there appears to be to many people trying to revise history to meet their own interests and influenced by what happened in the north.

    Look, I like this section of boards.ie. I, personally despise theories based on falsehoods, guessing, and speculating. I have no qualms about looking deep down into matters, thats what debate is, that's whats great about history, and in particular Irish history. No one would go mad if hard evidence, or at least realiable sources propped up that blew the lid on what we were thought or learned ourselves and changed completely the way we thought things were.

    But please, when we look at Irish history, do so with respect to the following (I say this for all!) now more educated / the experts would put this better (or put a good counter argument)

    To make any effort to understand Irish history (and its hard!)

    1. Look at the standards of the time, first, then speculate/talk about modern times. But try not to religiously put modern standards to those of 80 + years

    2. Look at the important statues of the time. Compare and Contrast - Seperate Home Rule Bills (and Act), Irish Free State Constitution, The Treaty Text, Irish Proclamation, Ulster Solemen League and Covenant, Bunreacht ná hÉireann (even for the craic, various Consitutions of other Common Wealth States), Statute of Westminister 1932 etc

    3. Look at what was happening elsewhere in the world, not just the usual suspects

    4. The Serious social and political changes in Ireland, how it happened, why it happened and its consquences: Famine, Land War/ Land League, Gaelic Revival, Early years of Sinn Féin under Griiffith, The Labour/workers movement all over the island, changing economic boom/prosperity in various parts of Ireland (eg The West or Dubln compared to say Belfast or even Derry) and the BIG ONE!The Extension of the Electorial Franchise for Women and Younger Men!, The historical position or preceived position of people of the Protestant (other other faiths) and political persuasion.

    People like yourself, ALWAYS, sadly, seem to run off on insults or move to other angles when ye are thrown arguments like the 1920 election, German Plot, British Heavy handiness to the civilians (which, like even the modern IRA were happy with as it pushed people to their side) If you have an argument worth fighting on, fight it, you may get people reading argree or change their minds to your persuasion. This is afterall a debate / discussion. Now of course, if a person is a complete and Exclusive sole believer of Constitutionalist and or pacifist, then one's arguments, no matter how disagreeable, would at least stand up.

    Thank you


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    #67
    mickos
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭mickos


    Hi guys,
    I have been following this thread but have not contributed, as my historical knowledge wouldn't be up to some of yours here.
    I feel today 24th of April should be celebrated in some way, as its the day our Irish republic was declared. I would have reservations about full scale celebrations, as it is not a 32 county republic, but feel the day should at least be acknowledged. The majority of people on this Island will see no significance at all in todays date. This is wrong as it was momentous in the begining of the end of british rule in Ireland.
    Historians like yourselves can argue the finer points of the events of the time. I don't believe whether the event was popular at time or not is of any importance. Sometimes it takes a small group to stand up for what they believe in to make things happen and I believe that the day Padraig Pearse stood on the steps of the GPO and read The Proclomation of Independence should be remembered as one of the proudest days of our history.


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    #68
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    mickos wrote: »
    Hi guys,
    I have been following this thread but have not contributed, as my historical knowledge wouldn't be up to some of yours here.
    I feel today 24th of April should be celebrated in some way, as its the day our Irish republic was declared. I would have reservations about full scale celebrations, as it is not a 32 county republic, but feel the day should at least be acknowledged. The majority of people on this Island will see no significance at all in todays date. This is wrong as it was momentous in the begining of the end of british rule in Ireland.
    Historians like yourselves can argue the finer points of the events of the time. I don't believe whether the event was popular at time or not is of any importance. Sometimes it takes a small group to stand up for what they believe in to make things happen and I believe that the day Padraig Pearse stood on the steps of the GPO and read The Proclomation of Independence should be remembered as one of the proudest days of our history.

    true.

    but it could set the wrong message to ALL in the north, for reasons you explained and for the other crowd. It is simply not worth it, sadly. too much progress has been achieved, and it would only give any of them excuses to back to their corner, after all, this is an election year up there.

    down here, any political party could not win. they will some how be accussed of hijacking the event, be it sinn fein or fianna fail. they would forget about the time and throw modern day political rherotic in. sinn fein could, in some ways rightly, slag off fianna fail for its supposed Republican credentials and how they use it when it suits them (eg playing the green card to side track the current state of the country). fianna fail in return could shout out that they are the true republicians and anyone else (ie the dissidents, ala martin mcguinness recently said, are the enemy):rolleyes:

    as for the media:rolleyes:, if they appauled it, they are ra heads etc, if they poo poo it like the independent and sindo, they are west brits, and if they are the times (the record) they are rev lovejoy's wife.... think of the children (though fintan did bring out a nice book on it) - please note i have yet to read the papers today.

    if you want, take a trip up to arbour hill or gpo and pay your respects (or varrious monuments around ireland dedicated to people from those areas who fought in 1916 and tan war) better off, because you ain''t going to please everyone


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    #69
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    mickos wrote: »
    Hi guys,
    I have been following this thread but have not contributed, as my historical knowledge wouldn't be up to some of yours here.
    I feel today 24th of April should be celebrated in some way, as its the day our Irish republic was declared. I would have reservations about full scale celebrations, as it is not a 32 county republic, but feel the day should at least be acknowledged. The majority of people on this Island will see no significance at all in todays date. This is wrong as it was momentous in the begining of the end of british rule in Ireland.
    Historians like yourselves can argue the finer points of the events of the time. I don't believe whether the event was popular at time or not is of any importance. Sometimes it takes a small group to stand up for what they believe in to make things happen and I believe that the day Padraig Pearse stood on the steps of the GPO and read The Proclomation of Independence should be remembered as one of the proudest days of our history.

    Well said.


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