Grade Inflation

cson

Apparently grades have increased ~37% in UL in the past 10 years. It's at the lower end of the scale compared to other 3rd level institutions in Ireland but it's still a significant amount. Personally; I've found the majority of my lecturers to be very harsh markers and I don't think my exams have been easily marked or anything. Certainly there are a couple of modules that are easier than others to put it nicely but on the whole I think UL is a tough school and it will weed out anyone who doesn't try. I'd love to find the failure rates for the different courses out.

entropic

I for one do believe that I have worked very hard so far in my course and if I do come out with a 1.1 that I will have deserved it. But as I mentioned in the other thread here there are alot of people who get their FYP done for them by their supervisors.

And I could give out for hours about I grades, they are handed out as easily as the condoms in the SU. There are two people in my course that should not be here. They cannot handle the work load and it is a pretty intensive course with 34 timetabled hours along with support tutorials and then assignments. But they got the "I was drunk during the semester" grade by knowing how to play the welfare and councilling system inside the college. If I see them back next year with anywhere near a 1.1 I will wholeheartedly agree with whatever measures they bring in to try and combat this so called inflation.

Also on Drop-Out rates, in Applied Physics its generally about 30-40% with usually 15+ starting and only 8/9 finishing.

cson

In my own class (Law & Accounting) I believe we have ~70 that started and really off the top of my head I can only think of a maximum of 3 who haven't made it to 3rd year. Thats a drop out rate of less than 5%.

entropic

I have spoken to a few friends about this and they all agree that it is definatly the case, there is a feeling among the science and engineering folk that the arts get grades much easier but they also admit that the standards they had expected in college for science is far lower than the actual required standards.

Nearly all of my friends doing some form of arts degree think that there has been a downward trend in sedcondary and college. I guess we are lucky that we get through at its simplist time :P

PeakOutput

i have to disagree cson im afraid i think ul marks very very easy

my course covers modules from a variety of departments and to me they all seem the same very easy markers

i was even told by one lecturer this semester not to worry as he got in trouble for marking too easy last semester so he dosnt expect anyone to have any trouble this year

its great for the average student its crap for someone who wants to have a really good degree with a good reputation behind it

i am hoping to get a first and have alot of work to do between now(3rd year) and the end of 4th but its because of the easy marking that i reckon i wont have a problem doing it

i think there should be a percentage max of the class that should be allowed get firsts thats the only way it means anything no more than the top 10%-15% of a class should be getting firsts, 30% or there abouts should be getting 2.1s and the rest should get 2.2's

it is extremely serious when a company like google or intel tell you they wont even bother to recruit from its because their first students arent worth anything

edit; there are some courses that are very hard and are hard at marking like computer systems for example but this is true for every uni that runs this type of course they all have very high dropout rates

tweety_bird

it may be just from my own experience but i think that if you put the work in then your grades will be higher. I dont think it has anything to do with this grade inflation nonsense.

cson

I wonder how much of a backlash this will generate on exams in the short term?

DesQ2

When you consider the increase in grades, you have to take into account there's repeat exams and 2 excellent learning centres. UL at one stage didn't allow any students to repeat exams, it was ex Limerick mayor and SU president Diarmuid Scully who got repeats brought in, appartently students held 60's style sit in protests to convince the college to change.

PeakOutput

DesQ2 wrote: »

When you consider the increase in grades, you have to take into account there's repeat exams and 2 excellent learning centres. UL at one stage didn't allow any students to repeat exams, it was ex Limerick mayor and SU president Diarmuid Scully who got repeats brought in, appartently students held 60's style sit in protests to convince the college to change.

when was that?

sceptre

PeakOutput wrote: »

when was that?

Formal repeats were introduced in 1995. Most faculties (or departments as they were then) had their own system of repeats before then, with the exception of engineering which didn't really have any. A temporary system had existed for a few years before then but it was mostly up to the particular departments which standards they used. Diarmuid Scully was SU president a few years before (1992-93) the formal repeats structure was introduced but he was part of a long list of people who worked towards them. As it happens I was on the last SU exec before the formal repeats structure was adopted, Brian Synott was president the following year when the system came into effect and was the SU president who took the final actions to ensure that the system was actually introduced (or in other terms, who got repeats brought in) but it was a succession of representatives that ensured its introduction. Scully definitely played a significant and worthy role.

UL still has a repeats system that is probably more stringent and stickly than the one that exists in other colleges (the NUI system of compensatory passes is generally more lax and easier for the student) so I wouldn't credit the repeats introduction with any possible increase in higher degrees or possible drop in standards in the past decade as there isn't even time correlation, let alone demonstrable causation. Also, the increase in firsts in UL has been lower than that in other colleges, notably TCD. Not that I'm touting that as a reason to say that it's OK if there is a problem but as I often point out, correlation isn't causation.

There was a recent thread in Politics as a side-discussion to the main discussion on the NUI dissolution announcement where the national figures were discussed, sometimes unfortunately by people who aren't good at statistical analysis but some of the discussion is interesting. Of course that was prior to the Batt O'Keeffe announcement that he's examining it but then Batt has demonstrated recently that he's mostly playing catchup. There's a post announcement thread here if anyone feels like discussing the general topic rather than a specifically UL-based one. Politics forum rules apply there obviously but anyone who feels like usefully contributing is very welcome to do so:).


Ah, I seem to be capable of coherency again.:) That's unexpected and good, let's hope it continues.

PeakOutput

sceptre wrote: »

UL still has a repeats system that is probably more stringent and stickly than the one that exists in other colleges (the NUI system of compensatory passes is generally more lax and easier for the student) so I wouldn't credit the repeats introduction with any possible increase in higher degrees or possible drop in standards in the past decade as there isn't even time correlation, let alone demonstrable causation. Also, the increase in firsts in UL has been lower than that in other colleges, notably UCD. Not that I'm touting that as a reason to say that it's OK if there is a problem but as I often point out, correlation isn't causation.

any reports iv seen have put ucd as the lowest increase and ul just above them on the list but the difference is significant

also id like to see the total amount of firsts given out by ucd as compared to ul

sceptre

PeakOutput wrote: »

any reports iv seen have put ucd as the lowest increase and ul just above them on the list but the difference is significant

also id like to see the total amount of firsts given out by ucd as compared to ul

Gah, I meant TCD, my typo, apologies. Corrected above. Firsts at TCD rose from 6.8% in 1994 to 13.9 in 2004, while their 2.1s rose from 23% to 52% in the same period. While this isn't the same period Batt O'Keeffe is discussing, they're the figures I can remember and they're the ones recently discussed in the Politics thread. UL's firsts went from 7.2% to 11.7 in the same period, 2.1s from 21 to 36. I'm pretty sure the figures for all seven universities are in one of the threads to which I've linked so it's worth a look, these are merely the ones I specifically remember. I also recall NUIM having a ten-fold increase in firsts during the same period but I've ignored that figure as it coincides with their expansionary period into regular courses which is significant.

sportz

cson wrote: »

Apparently grades have increased ~37% in UL in the past 10 years. It's at the lower end of the scale compared to other 3rd level institutions in Ireland but it's still a significant amount. Personally; I've found the majority of my lecturers to be very harsh markers and I don't think my exams have been easily marked or anything. Certainly there are a couple of modules that are easier than others to put it nicely but on the whole I think UL is a tough school and it will weed out anyone who doesn't try. I'd love to find the failure rates for the different courses out.

UL wants students to be cut down in their grades just to pretend that their education system has quality. Pathetic.

If students do a Grade A exam, they SHOULD be given just that. Not pre-judged by conservative small minded people with their own agenda. My sister studied in UL and she told me that grade deflation was rampant. She appealed one exam grade successfully - gives you an idea what certain well-paid civil servant Lecturers do as part of their job.

PeakOutput

sportz wrote: »

UL wants students to be cut down in their grades just to pretend that their education system has quality. Pathetic.

If students do a Grade A exam, they SHOULD be given just that. Not pre-judged by conservative small minded people with their own agenda. My sister studied in UL and she told me that grade deflation was rampant. She appealed one exam grade successfully - gives you an idea what certain well-paid civil servant Lecturers do as part of their job.

you have precisely zero clue what you are talking about

1)only the best in the class should be getting a1's. if the everyone is getting a's one of two things are happening, the course is too easy or the lecturer is marking too easy

2)it is too easy to get a's and even b's in ul with woefull attendance, this means the courses are too easy, simple

3)what use is it to prospective employers if they see 300 2.1's graduating from business every year? none thats what they have a variety of positions to be filled some they want the top people for some they want the middle people for and some they want the lowest grade people for. it dosnt help anyone to pretend all these 300 people are at the same level by awarding them all the same grade

4)easy marking is great for the average student as i said, it gets them an average to below average degree that will get them an average to below average job. it completely destroys the value of the degree of the hard workers and very intelligent people which means they might not get the job they deserve because the companies see their degree as a soft touch compared to other uni's either in ireland(ucd for example) or across the world(list any top 100 college in the world)

in conclusion easy marking is a disadvantage to everyone including your sister

sportz

PeakOutput wrote: »

you have precisely zero clue what you are talking about

1)only the best in the class should be getting a1's. if the everyone is getting a's one of two things are happening, the course is too easy or the lecturer is marking too easy

BS: How can you assume that when you don't even show any examples of this? You can't; that's why. Your view is a typical generalization that many older conservative lecturers seem to hold. This despite the fact that the students are keeping you in your job.

PeakOutput wrote: »

2)it is too easy to get a's and even b's in ul with woefull attendance, this means the courses are too easy, simple

The courses are already hard. Go ahead and make them a closed game if you wish. But you'll only loose your students to other Universities/Institutes in Europe/elsewhere. There are English speaking Institutes in France/Germany/Poland etc.

PeakOutput wrote: »

3)what use is it to prospective employers if they see 300 2.1's graduating from business every year? none thats what they have a variety of positions to be filled some they want the top people for some they want the middle people for and some they want the lowest grade people for. it dosnt help anyone to pretend all these 300 people are at the same level by awarding them all the same grade

Put differently: what if that genuinely reflects hard working students who put the work into their studies? You want to cut their grades anyway, right?

PeakOutput wrote: »

4)easy marking is great for the average student as i said, it gets them an average to below average degree that will get them an average to below average job. it completely destroys the value of the degree of the hard workers and very intelligent people which means they might not get the job they deserve because the companies see their degree as a soft touch compared to other uni's either in ireland(ucd for example) or across the world(list any top 100 college in the world)


in conclusion easy marking is a disadvantage to everyone including your sister

Easy marking does NOT exist in any Irish third level institute, in case you haven't realized.

PeakOutput

sportz wrote: »

This despite the fact that the students are keeping you in your job.

im a student

The courses are already hard. Go ahead and make them a closed game if you wish. But you'll only loose your students to other Universities/Institutes in Europe/elsewhere. There are English speaking Institutes in France/Germany/Poland etc.

some courses are hard

Put differently: what if that genuinely reflects hard working students who put the work into their studies? You want to cut their grades anyway, right?

if you pick a random 300 student and put them threw an educational programme there is no way they should all come out with roughly the same grades it just shouldnt happen there will be a wide variety of intellects and motivation between the 300 and the results should reflect that.

Easy marking does NOT exist in any Irish third level institute, in case you haven't realized.

yes it does it exists in ul were i study and i have taken advantage of this just like anyone else but i know the detrimental effect it has on the value of my education. also the study clearly shows it exists in the others too.

do you not understand how serious it is when employers like google and intel tell you that they dont even bother looking at graduates from it's?

cson

Imo you're overstating the impact PeakOutput. As I've said I don't believe it's entirely true - some modules I've had have been easily treated and they usually fall under the one category (I apologise to Business heads who think otherwise but some of the modules I have had in the faculty are a bit of a joke marks wise - BIM 1 in first year springs to mind).

I'd offer the theory that students have become cleverer at working the system - because at the end of the day, it is a system and with clever management you can get good grades. What this means in effect that students gear towards exams rather than learning. I don't think marking has become easier but that students have taken advantage of a system that allows you to concentrate your efforts on certain subjects in order to maximise your grades (for example in some modules the exam is sometimes outlined - what topics will come up). And that results in understanding and learning of a subject suffering.

That'll rear it's head in the like of these companies when you head into accounts in Intel or Google for example and they ask you to do a product costing using method x when the only part of costing you learned was method y because it was on the exam. They then wonder how you don't know it when you did a module containing that subject - ergo it must be grade inflation.

That's my understanding of the real problem - too much emphasis on exam results and not enough on conceptual understanding. And I should know, because I've been abusing the system like that since I came to college.

PeakOutput

ye its a good point but i think the most important thing is the decline of standards

having said that iv always been in favour of strict handing out of firsts so maybe this report just slides in with beliefs i had in the first place

edit

oh and being able to carry on your course of study after getting 30% in two modules out of 5/6 is also ridicolous imo

cson

PeakOutput wrote: »

ye its a good point but i think the most important thing is the decline of standards

having said that iv always been in favour of strict handing out of firsts so maybe this report just slides in with beliefs i had in the first place

edit

oh and being able to carry on your course of study after getting 30% in two modules out of 5/6 is also ridicolous imo

I'd agree with that; I think getting rid of compensatory fail grades would be a good thing - it'd cut out out a lot of the deadwood imo.

A lot of that decline in standards can be attributed to lecturers as much as students in my own opinion - its all too easy to reach for the bubble sheet & 20% across the boards project rather than come up with their own unique exam (again this plays into the hands of the likes of me who works the system as it were). Exam patterns are very very obvious in some modules. Again in the quiet words of Fifty Cent Esq "don't hate da player, hate da game" The game should be changed.

Vegeta

Would like to see it further broken down by department

PeakOutput

cson wrote: »

Again in the quiet words of Fifty Cent Esq "don't hate da player, hate da game" The game should be changed.

mike lowry (wil smith) said it first in bad boys

iv seen it broken down for department in the uk but not for ireland yet it varies a huge amount in the uk

Vegeta

cson wrote: »

too much emphasis on exam results and not enough on conceptual understanding.

Bingo

That is a problem with our education system from the minute you hit secondary school. How many A grades in the Junior Cert. How many points in the leaving cert. Knowing enough to pass exams in college without ever knowing the usefulness of the topics being thought.

cson

It's natural enough for it to vary greatly between departments though. Contrast a humanities course - say Arts where most of the grading is subjective to a point (one mans Jane Austen will be another mans Stephanie Meyer ) wheras with a faculty like engineering; you're either right or wrong.

cson

Vegeta wrote: »

Bingo

That is a problem with our education system from the minute you hit secondary school. How many A grades in the Junior Cert. How many points in the leaving cert. Knowing enough to pass exams in college without ever knowing the usefulness of the topics being thought.

Yup, you could be a decidedly average student in the true sense of the word but have exceptional academic achievements solely from knowing how to work the system.

breedie

And isn't 'knowing how to work the system' a life-skill? And one that is extremely useful in the 'real world'. Not everyone out there with a job is a walking genius. And yes, there is an amount of strategy needed if you plan on getting a first but let's face it there is a certain amount of strategy needed just to get thorough college..............perhaps we're looking at the wrong end of the scale here and should concentrate more on those getting pass degrees and/or scraping through and ask what they say about the institution that awarded them a degree.

PeakOutput

breedie wrote: »

perhaps we're looking at the wrong end of the scale here and should concentrate more on those getting pass degrees and/or scraping through and ask what they say about the institution that awarded them a degree.

its all the same problem

inflated grades include people who are scraping by and should really not get a degree at all

Nockz

Comp Systems and Multimedia and Comp Games are hard roads to go down. According to one 4th year I know, his class has cut in half every academic year pretty much. Getting really good grades in those is not a walk in the park at all. For this reason I find it hard to take some opinions too seriously because I am just getting the complete opposite experience.

PeakOutput

Nockz wrote: »

Comp Systems and Multimedia and Comp Games are hard roads to go down. According to one 4th year I know, his class has cut in half every academic year pretty much. Getting really good grades in those is not a walk in the park at all. For this reason I find it hard to take some opinions too seriously because I am just getting the complete opposite experience.

thats one course in a college with how many courses?

computer science courses in all colleges have notoriously high drop out rates in every university. however it is my personal opinion that the drop outs are a result of a lack of understanding of what a course like that entails rather than the course actually being so difficult that only 15% of people have the ability to complete it (im not saying its not difficult im a computer science drop out myself)

Nockz

PeakOutput wrote: »

thats one course in a college with how many courses?

computer science courses in all colleges have notoriously high drop out rates in every university. however it is my personal opinion that the drop outs are a result of a lack of understanding of what a course like that entails rather than the course actually being so difficult that only 15% of people have the ability to complete it (im not saying its not difficult im a computer science drop out myself)

That's one course that contradicts the need for grade deflation. Proof by Contradiction FTW

All I am saying, is that it is very hard to make any kind of educated guess on the topic unless you have had some knowledge of the standards of each department and the entailments of each course. It could be said that there are many 'easy' courses but keep in mind that there are difficult ones too.

PeakOutput

Nockz wrote: »

That's one course that contradicts the need for grade deflation. Proof by Contradiction FTW

All I am saying, is that it is very hard to make any kind of educated guess on the topic unless you have had some knowledge of the standards of each department and the entailments of each course. It could be said that there are many 'easy' courses but keep in mind that there are difficult ones too.

i can show you the uk figures by department and then figures extrapolated from those for irish departments if you like?

as i said in either this thread or the one in politics the differences between departments vary a huge amount(according to the uk figures) however the overall trend leads to these high figures of grade inflation we are getting thrown at us

no1 is saying you can apply those figures to each course individually

edit; and it only contradicts the need for it in that one course but i suspect you realise that

pajunior

I do computer systems and out of a class of 30 or so in first year there are about 14 left (in second year) and I will be quite suprised if at least two/three more aren't gone after the summer repeats this august. If this course is getting easier then I would never have stood a chance ten years ago.