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English Marking

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    #32
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Flecktarn wrote: »
    That Kavanagh essay seems ridiculously short, how long was it?
    Ah, that was the intro. It ended up being a few lines short of 4 pages. Got me a B3.

    That last essay I wrote up got a B1. My teacher said it was an excellent intro though. I've never seen anyone mention every single poem they're going to discuss in their intro though.


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    #33
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've never mentioned every poem I'm going to discuss in my intro, and I generally do very well in poetry essays. I don't think that's necessary, obviously there's nothing wrong with it but it's just not how I structure my essays. I do of course give an indictation of where I'm going to take an essay, but I don't list off poems in the intro...

    the element of surprise....yes I'll agree many could live with that....Grade remains at C1 :D


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    #34
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    My teacher said it was an excellent intro though. I've never seen anyone mention every single poem they're going to discuss in their intro though.

    On mature reflection :D perhaps I was a little hasty with my mention every poem demand. I would now say it's very possible to have a very legitimate intro without mentioning any poems but I like balance and if the essay is about 2 poems, why mention one in the intro and not the other?


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    #35
    Seannew1
    Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭Seannew1


    Well there,

    I appreciate your concern and it is fully true different english teachers will give different grades for the same essay, but I can fully reassure you this will not happen in the Leaving cert. The biggest gap most Leaving cert correctors in English especially at Higher Level will be 5% not 20%!!!! Examiners have to attend conferences, and the advising examiners will instruct the assitant examiners exactly what to expect in an answer and what to give good marks for etc!! In school, teachers tend to mark work down to keep you on your toes so don't worry to much about it. In english it's all about answering the question and in doing that expressing yourself as eloquently as possible!
    best of luck,

    Seán


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    #36
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    Seannew1 wrote: »
    Well there,

    I appreciate your concern and it is fully true different english teachers will give different grades for the same essay, but I can fully reassure you this will not happen in the Leaving cert. The biggest gap most Leaving cert correctors in English especially at Higher Level will be 5% not 20%!!!! Examiners have to attend conferences, and the advising examiners will instruct the assitant examiners exactly what to expect in an answer and what to give good marks for etc!! In school, teachers tend to mark work down to keep you on your toes so don't worry to much about it. In english it's all about answering the question and in doing that expressing yourself as eloquently as possible!
    best of luck,

    Seán

    I believe that English is indeed marked more consistently than most people believe, and I'm fully aware of the processes involved in the Leaving Cert. However, I'm curious to know whether there is research data to back up the assertion that you made and that I've highlighted in bold above?


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    #37
    jumpguy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    Yeah, when I was in class my teacher never liked my essays, and I'd always get a C. But I'd do grand then in mocks and exams. It's a matter of opinion as much as anything. If an examiner doesn't like a perfectly good essay, he/she probably won't be inclined to give it extra marks.


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    #38
    Seannew1
    Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭Seannew1


    Well it goes back to the PCLM, the margin for error is so small here and remember 4 marks is 1 percent on the paper, for example 30% of marks go towards Purpose, so its pretty obvious an english examiner will know damn well if someone's answering the question or not.


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    #39
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    Seannew1 wrote: »
    Well it goes back to the PCLM, the margin for error is so small here and remember 4 marks is 1 percent on the paper, for example 30% of marks go towards Purpose, so its pretty obvious an english examiner will know damn well if someone's answering the question or not.

    But my point is that, as far as I'm aware, there isn't any recent published research on the accuracy with which examiners mark essays in the LC. Since you were quoting an actual percentage, I thought you might know of such.

    This 5% assertion, then, is just an estimate based on your experience and beliefs about the system. Yes?

    (I'm not saying it's wrong, by the way; I have no data on this matter either.)

    And when you say the margin of error is small in the PCLM system, how small do you mean, and how do you know?


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    #40
    Seannew1
    Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭Seannew1


    MathsManiac wrote: »
    But my point is that, as far as I'm aware, there isn't any recent published research on the accuracy with which examiners mark essays in the LC. Since you were quoting an actual percentage, I thought you might know of such.

    This 5% assertion, then, is just an estimate based on your experience and beliefs about the system. Yes?

    (I'm not saying it's wrong, by the way; I have no data on this matter either.)

    And when you say the margin of error is small in the PCLM system, how small do you mean, and how do you know?

    No, but even out of appeals, it is rare people would go over 5% in any case. You have to remember the person you will be marking your english paper this summer has 15 yrs of correcting lc papers and they know evert detail of every novel, play etc.

    Even in English, you'll notice examiners follow a pretty rigid marking scheme. On your question about the PCLM, an example is the Prescribed poetry question, the grading is P15, C15, L15 and M5, take the question on Bishop, if a student answers the question then they'll score high but they'll be crucified in the rest of the marking if they don't and 2 examiners aren't going to give someone with excellent spelling 1/5 or 5/5 in the same essay.that's what I mean about the margin of error is very small.
    Hope that helps.


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    #41
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    Seannew1 wrote: »
    No, but even out of appeals, it is rare people would go over 5% in any case.
    This doesn't consitute relevant research. The appeal examiner sees the marks the original examiner awarded. Therefore it is impossible for them to take a completely independent view of the work, even if they wanted to. Furthermore, in the case of subjective assessments, they are instructed not to change the original mark unless it is significantly out of line with their own judgment.

    By relevant research, I mean systematic research in which examiners mark the same essays completely independently of each other.
    Seannew1 wrote: »
    You have to remember the person you will be marking your English paper this summer has 15 yrs of correcting lc papers and they know evert detail of every novel, play etc.
    I don't doubt this, but the same would be true about comparable examiners in other countries, and I'm not aware of any examination board claiming to have established such levels of accuracy in essay marking as you have described.
    Seannew1 wrote: »
    Even in English, you'll notice examiners follow a pretty rigid marking scheme. On your question about the PCLM, an example is the Prescribed poetry question, the grading is P15, C15, L15 and M5, take the question on Bishop, if a student answers the question then they'll score high but they'll be crucified in the rest of the marking if they don't and 2 examiners aren't going to give someone with excellent spelling 1/5 or 5/5 in the same essay.that's what I mean about the margin of error is very small.
    Hope that helps.

    You've indicated here that what you mean by a small margin of error is that it's unlikely that two different examiners would give 1 out of 5 and 5 out of 5 for the same aspect of a piece of work. I infer that you therefore consider 2, 3 or 4 out of 5 to be conceivable from different examiners. A mark that could range from 40% to 80% of the marks available could hardly be described as a 5% margin of error.

    If we take the midpoint between 1 out of 5 and 2 out of 5 as the boundary of your suggested error range, and similarly at the upper end, and if comparable levels of disagreement are feasible under the P, C and L headings, then the total mark for the essay could range from 15 to 45 out of 50. This is a range from 30% to 90%. If you read this as 60 [+/-] 30, it's a 30% margin of error, quite a distance from your first suggestion.

    In order to establish a 5% margin of error, as you first suggested, we would need to see evidence that if all examiners were to independently mark an essay scored out of 50 marks, then 95% of them would give a total mark that is within 2.5 marks of the correct score.

    I believe this is unlikely to be true, but I would obviously accept it if someone had solid data to back it up. I don't know whether SEC does this kind of research. I was a maths examiner for a number of years and I was never asked to participate in such research or made aware of it, so I'm guessing they don't. They certainly don't publish anything like this on their website.


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