[US/IRL] 6x06 - "Sundown" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

jimbling

the_monkey wrote: »

Why do people think this series syncs so much with The Stand ?

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Stand

blue_steel

6

This is lifted from the Lost blog on The Washington Post. Thought it was very interesting:

"What's off about the episode (and the whole season) is that the choices the characters make are becoming less significant to the plot. It's all Deus ex machina now with either Jacob or Smokey directly manipulating events. The last thing the characters had control over was setting off the nuclear device on last season's finale.... Last night's episode may have been a tour de force for Sayid, who struggled mightily with his inner demons and ultimately lost the battle. But if you step back just a few feet it becomes clear that the struggle was really just a symptom, or a by-product, of Sayid's being used as a pawn in the war between Jacob and MIB. All we needed was a chess board under his feet to make that clearer."

I think this has hit the nail on the head. All the characters remind me of chess pieces this season. This was probably the writers plan all along and if so then fair enough. But its hard to empathise with our Losties when they seem to be little more that automatons controlled by two warring deities.

Sad Professor

7

That WP blogger needs to look up Deux Ex Machina, because they obviously don't know what it means.

I don't think the chess board analogy is accurate. Nor do I think MIB or Jacob are gods. MIB said he was once a man who enjoyed reading but that Steinbeck was before his time. Jacob insisted to Hurley that he was alive, and he bled and died at Ben's hands the same as anyone else. Obviously neither of them are just men anymore, but I reckon they both came to the island the same as everyone else. What they both became afterwards is another thing, but probably a result of choices they made.

The idea of free will has a been a significant theme throughout the show. The writers haven't suddenly forgotten about it. The idea that Jacob manipulated the survivors into coming to the island is silly. He may have nudged them in the right direction but the choices they made were their own. The same in this episode. Sayid chose to take MIB's side because of his own character weaknesses. No one made him do it. If he now a pawn, it's because he chose to be one.

As I've said before, I think the conflict between Jacob and MIB is the same conflict we watched for 5 years between Locke and Jack. The subject of the conflict is the island. I think Jacob and MIB are fighting over the island the same way Locke and Jack fought over the button in the Swan hatch. Like Desmond, Jacob seeks a replacement to "protect" the island. And like Jack, MIB thinks there's no need to protect it. However unlike Jack, I think MIB fully understands the consequences of not "protecting" the island, or "pushing the button" as it were.

It's like the garden of Eden in a way. MIB is Satan, he believes everyone, all of humanity, is corruptible and unworthy of survival. And Jacob is trying to prove him wrong, so for hundred/thousands of years he has brought people to the island and MIB tempts all of them into corruption - "it always ends the same". But Jacob keeps bringing them. But now Jacob is dead and MIB is on the loose. I think his agenda became clear in this episode - he wants everyone off the island and to abandon their purpose there.

It's easy to see all of this as a game, but I don't think it is. A game has no consequences. Where as I think there's something very big at stake here. Whatever the island is, I think it is of huge importance. Dharma may have been dumb hippy scientists looking to experiment with polar bears and rabbits when they first came to the island, but whatever they found there changed everything. The electromagnetic anomaly that created the flash sideways is the same energy that Dharma sought to hold back. That energy hasn't gone away, Desmond just sealed it. I believe the release/containment of this energy is what MIB and Jacob are fighting over.

opinion guy

Sad Professor wrote: »

It's like the garden of Eden in a way. MIB is Satan, he believes everyone, all of humanity, is corruptible and unworthy of survival. And Jacob is trying to prove him wrong, so for hundred/thousands of years he has brought people to the island and MIB tempts all of them into corruption - "it always ends the same". But Jacob keeps bringing them. But now Jacob is dead and MIB is on the loose. I think his agenda became clear in this episode - he wants everyone off the island and to abandon their purpose there.

Hmm I don't think MIB tempts them anymore than Jacob does - Jacob bribes people like Dogen and Juliette with the safety of their loves ones - possibly endangerd by his design. In fact if anythin MIB is more honest - leave the temple and live, stay and die. I suspect MIB will actually do as he says and give them what he promises - possibly the alternate timeline. I think it could well turn out that MIB is the less evil of the two.

It's easy to see all of this as a game, but I don't think it is. A game has no consequences. Where as I think there's something very big at stake here. Whatever the island is, I think it is of huge importance. Dharma may have been dumb hippy scientists looking to experiment with polar bears and rabbits when they first came to the island, but whatever they found there changed everything. The electromagnetic anomaly that created the flash sideways is the same energy that Dharma sought to hold back. That energy hasn't gone away, Desmond just sealed it. I believe the release/containment of this energy is what MIB and Jacob are fighting over.

Wasn't the energy neutralised by the nuke ?

blue_steel

6

Sad Professor wrote: »

That WP blogger needs to look up Deux Ex Machina, because they obviously don't know what it means.

I don't think the chess board analogy is accurate. Nor do I think MIB or Jacob are gods. MIB said he was once a man who enjoyed reading but that Steinbeck was before his time. Jacob insisted to Hurley that he was alive, and he bled and died at Ben's hands the same as anyone else. Obviously neither of them are just men anymore, but I reckon they both came to the island the same as everyone else. What they both became afterwards is another thing, but probably a result of choices they made.

The idea of free will has a been a significant theme throughout the show. The writers haven't suddenly forgotten about it. The idea that Jacob manipulated the survivors into coming to the island is silly. He may have nudged them in the right direction but the choices they made were their own. The same in this episode. Sayid chose to take MIB's side because of his own character weaknesses. No one made him do it. If he now a pawn, it's because he chose to be one.

As I've said before, I think the conflict between Jacob and MIB is the same conflict we watched for 5 years between Locke and Jack. The subject of the conflict is the island. I think Jacob and MIB are fighting over the island the same way Locke and Jack fought over the button in the Swan hatch. Like Desmond, Jacob seeks a replacement to "protect" the island. And like Jack, MIB thinks there's no need to protect it. However unlike Jack, I think MIB fully understands the consequences of not "protecting" the island, or "pushing the button" as it were.

It's like the garden of Eden in a way. MIB is Satan, he believes everyone, all of humanity, is corruptible and unworthy of survival. And Jacob is trying to prove him wrong, so for hundred/thousands of years he has brought people to the island and MIB tempts all of them into corruption - "it always ends the same". But Jacob keeps bringing them. But now Jacob is dead and MIB is on the loose. I think his agenda became clear in this episode - he wants everyone off the island and to abandon their purpose there.

It's easy to see all of this as a game, but I don't think it is. A game has no consequences. Where as I think there's something very big at stake here. Whatever the island is, I think it is of huge importance. Dharma may have been dumb hippy scientists looking to experiment with polar bears and rabbits when they first came to the island, but whatever they found there changed everything. The electromagnetic anomaly that created the flash sideways is the same energy that Dharma sought to hold back. That energy hasn't gone away, Desmond just sealed it. I believe the release/containment of this energy is what MIB and Jacob are fighting over.

I think dues ex machina is a pretty accurate description for a lot of Lost's storytelling. They’ve made an art out of it if we’re honest and I for one love it. Moving the island is a prime example. Or magic ash that works then doesn’t work. Or shape-shifters who are suddenly stuck in the shows best actors body
But I’m not knocking that stuff because most of it has been wonderful.
I like your idea that the electro magnetic energy is what Jacob and MIB are fighting over. That is a very interesting concept.

Sad Professor

7

opinion guy wrote: »

Hmm I don't think MIB tempts them anymore than Jacob does - Jacob bribes people like Dogen and Juliette with the safety of their loves ones - possibly endangerd by his design. In fact if anythin MIB is more honest - leave the temple and live, stay and die. I suspect MIB will actually do as he says and give them what he promises - possibly the alternate timeline. I think it could well turn out that MIB is the less evil of the two.

No, I'm totally convinced that MIB is evil and Jacob is good. The only reason we think Jacob is a manipulator is because of what MIB told Sawyer. He also told Claire that Aaron was at the temple. He said that it's just an island. He manipulated Ben into killing Jacob. And he pretended to be a someone he wasn't for quite a while. He's a liar.

There's no evidence that Jacob caused bad things to happen to people. But unlike MIB, who offers Sayid the world, I think Jacob is honest enough to tell people that everything must be paid back. Good cannot prevail without sacrifice. Evil is appealing because it it leads people to believe they can have their cake and eat it too.

Wasn't the energy neutralised by the nuke ?

Maybe in the sideways timeline. Or at least that was Faraday's plan, but we can't be sure it worked as he intended. It definitely wasn't neutralised in the original timeline or else the hatch never would have been built, plane never would have crashed, etc. So in the original timeline it is still there.

blue_steel wrote:

I think dues ex machina is a pretty accurate description for a lot of Lost's storytelling. They’ve made an art out of it if we’re honest and I for one love it. Moving the island is a prime example. Or magic ash that works then doesn’t work. Or shape-shifters who are suddenly stuck in the shows best actors body.

I understand what you mean, but none of that is really Deus Ex Machina. It's just sci-fi or magic. Or in some of the less convincing cases: "a wizard did it".

That's not to say Deus Ex Machina won't play role in the endgame. In fact I'm certain it will. It's unavoidable at this stage. There are good and bad ways of doing Deus Ex Machina, however. The BSG finale is an example of the bad way. But I think The Stand and LOTR handle it in a way that is simple but effective. The Stand's handling of it is undoubtedly far too literal though.

We'll see, I guess.

Closed ac

6

Was eventful & exciting but a little unsatisfactory. Too rushed & I didn't like how Dogen was killed off so quickly, he was interesting.

Mr.Nice Guy

7

Just watched it there. I gave it an 8 as I found it quite unsatisfying for what was supposed to be such an important episode. It all seemed rather haphazard, especially when Ben and the rest showed up. I'm also not liking the location the action is taking place. In previous years they were always on the move somewhere wheras at the minute they're all just hanging around at The Temple waiting for things to happen. Makes it less exciting imo.

I also felt really sorry for Sayid. He's always been one of my favourite characters and I'm not happy with the way his story has progressed. I like to think he did those things due to the darkness inside of him but perhaps that's something that will be left to the viewer to determine.

Last week I expressed disappointment at Jacob seemingly putting the safety of Jack and Hurley above the others and this week pretty much confirmed that for me. If Dogen had survived then I guess MIB couldn't come in so why did he not make more of an effort to salvage the situation? That bugs me. He clearly knew The Temple was under threat yet he didn't give a toss about the guy who he had ensured would come to the island to protect the place? Lame!

The bargain that Dogen touched upon leads me to think that both he and MIB are prepared to be selfish and ruthless to get what they want and sacrifice those whom they feel are unnecessary.

Anyway need to probably watch it again and have a read of this thread to make sense of this.

blue_steel

6

Actually enjoyed that a lot more with a second viewing. Maybe it's time to stop analysing and just enjoy the ride

opinion guy

Sad Professor wrote: »

There's no evidence that Jacob caused bad things to happen to people. But unlike MIB, who offers Sayid the world, I think Jacob is honest enough to tell people that everything must be paid back. Good cannot prevail without sacrifice. Evil is appealing because it it leads people to believe they can have their cake and eat it too.

Well Dogen' initial reaction to th gang showing up was to order them all killed. In the early seasons Ben and the others killed loads of people. They were Jacob's people following jacob's orders, if not directly then following his standing orders. Also the crash that killed sayid's wife - I think its safe to assume that it was arranged by either Jacob himself or ben under his direction. He set sawyer off on his path of vengeance to eventually kill his father. So I think Jacob does kill people too. He just doesn't do it directly. Whilst MIB may have told a few lies, he doens't manipulate people's whole lives and he generally gives them a direct choice to believe him or not. Jacob does not even reveal himself or his motives to most of them.

Maybe in the sideways timeline. Or at least that was Faraday's plan, but we can't be sure it worked as he intended. It definitely wasn't neutralised in the original timeline or else the hatch never would have been built, plane never would have crashed, etc. So in the original timeline it is still there.

yeah fair point

The BSG finale is an example of the bad way.

Personally I loved the BSG finale. Thought it was brilliant.

budgemook

9

So Smoke is Emperor Palpatine and Sayid is Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader.

Good episode apart from Dogen getting killed. We need answers about that baseball and why he could keep Smoke out. Had the best alt. timeline out of any of the new series and the best fight sequence in the whole show so far.

Can't wait to next week.

Fake Locke, controls people once he speaks to them? Why not Sawyer though? I know he wasn't shot like Sayid or anything but neither were all the people he had with him at the end? Also, I didn't see him speak to Kate, can she kill him now? Although I couldn't see that happening.

opinion guy

budgemook wrote: »

So Smoke is Emperor Palpatine and Sayid is Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader.

Also, I didn't see him speak to Kate, can she kill him now? Although I couldn't see that happening.

I think it was clear from Flocke's look at the end that he didn't expect Kate to be there and wasn't particularly pleased about it, but he wasn't going to do anything about it in front of his new followers (remember he told Richard he punched him out for show in front of the other people)

Penn

7

budgemook wrote: »

Fake Locke, controls people once he speaks to them? Why not Sawyer though? I know he wasn't shot like Sayid or anything but neither were all the people he had with him at the end? Also, I didn't see him speak to Kate, can she kill him now? Although I couldn't see that happening.

No, I think it was implied that Dogen was lying to Sayid. He only said about not letting Fake Locke speak so Sayid would try to kill him quickly, causing Locke to kill Sayid instead. Allowing Locke to speak means there was more chance of Locke manipulating Sayid, rather than controlling him

Sad Professor

7

opinion guy wrote: »

Well Dogen' initial reaction to th gang showing up was to order them all killed. In the early seasons Ben and the others killed loads of people. They were Jacob's people following jacob's orders, if not directly then following his standing orders.

Do you really believe Ben was answering to anyone but Ben? Jacob was in the background, Ben never even met him. I don't think Jacob was really in control of the Others. Besides, the island clearly lends itself to corruption. If as I've suggested Jacob is good, then he's all about offering people a chance at redemption. So he's not going to order people about or make them be good. They must choose redemption over corruption, good over evil. His "what about you" to Ben was a indication imo that he didn't like Ben's methods. But he also told Ben that he had a choice.

Also the crash that killed sayid's wife - I think its safe to assume that it was arranged by either Jacob himself or ben under his direction.

Maybe, but Ben blamed that on Widmore. We still don't know his role in all this though.

He set sawyer off on his path of vengeance to eventually kill his father.

Ah come on, he handed him a pen.

I have a theory about the Others though. I think they were originally MIB's followers, but that at some point in the past, Jacob won them over and they betrayed MIB. This is why he said he was "very disappointed" in all of them in the premiere. It would also explain them being, as you say, not especially good.

budgemook

9

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

No, I think it was implied that Dogen was lying to Sayid. He only said about not letting Fake Locke speak so Sayid would try to kill him quickly, causing Locke to kill Sayid instead. Allowing Locke to speak means there was more chance of Locke manipulating Sayid, rather than controlling him

No I don't agree at all. When Dogen was talking to Sayid he said "So you let him speak", Sayid denied it but Dogen just sighed as if he knew there was nothing that could be done about it. I think killing him before he spoke would have killed him. Sayid isn't just following Fake Locke, he's totally under his control now. Same with Claire and seemingly his new followers. They can't have gone from scared for their lives to evil looking henchmen in about 5 minutes unless he has control over them.

homerun_homer

6

budgemook wrote: »

We need answers about that baseball

I mentioned earlier in this thread that it seems the baseball represents the sacrifice he made to keep his son alive after his screw up, and how he must honour his work for Jacob. In this case protecting the candidates, so as he was about to kill Sayid he saw the ball fall and it reminded him not to undo the work he started for Jacob.

budgemook wrote: »

Fake Locke, controls people once he speaks to them? Also, I didn't see him speak to Kate, can she kill him now?

Not likely, Dogan just wanted Sayid to get killed by someone elses hand since he couldn't do it, under Jacob's law no doubt. Not letting MIB speak is just to avoid him offering temptation.

budgemook wrote: »

Why not Sawyer though?

Sawyer knows Kate had Aaron so I'm hoping the writers factored this in, and that MIB for now kept Sawyer away from Claire. Now she's met Kate and knows the truth it shouldn't be a problem for MIB

budgemook

9

homerun_homer wrote: »

I mentioned earlier in this thread that it seems the baseball represents the sacrifice he made to keep his son alive after his screw up, and how he must honour his work for Jacob. In this case protecting the candidates, so as he was about to kill Sayid he saw the ball fall and it reminded him not to undo the work he started for Jacob.

Not likely, Dogan just wanted Sayid to get killed by someone elses hand since he couldn't do it, under Jacob's law no doubt. Not letting MIB speak is just to avoid him offering temptation.

Sawyer knows Kate had Aaron so I'm hoping the writers factored this in, and that MIB for now kept Sawyer away from Claire. Now she's met Kate and knows the truth it shouldn't be a problem for MIB

Your not really answering what I'm asking. Fake Locke is controlling Claire, Sayid and his new followers for sure. I don't think it's based just on an offer. Sayid knows that trick very well. The fact that he has so many followers so quickly says to me he can control people just by talking to them.

wayne040576

DKZ wrote: »

Was eventful & exciting but a little unsatisfactory. Too rushed & I didn't like how Dogen was killed off so quickly, he was interesting.

I think they needed to get the ball rolling on things. I was only thinking today, that with what 7, 8? episodes left they couldn't afford to have another episode that trods along a slow pace. There's a battle coming in it and I know the last thing I wanted was for them to jam it into the last 2 episodes and try to resolve it.

Borat_Sagdiyev

7

Enjoyed the episode, especially the freaky Claire singing at the end, and the sinister ending to the episode in general.

One thing I don't understand though: why is everyone assuming that Dogen is dead? Was he not drowned in the same water that Sayid was drowned in?

Sad Professor

7

wayne040576 wrote: »

I think they needed to get the ball rolling on things. I was only thinking today, that with what 7, 8? episodes left they couldn't afford to have another episode that trods along a slow pace. There's a battle coming in it and I know the last thing I wanted was for them to jam it into the last 2 episodes and try to resolve it.

There may not really be a battle though. Especially if The Stand is an influence. There's a huge build up in that book, but it ends with just a few characters heading off to make (as the title suggests) a stand against evil. Previous seasons of Lost tended to follow this pattern as well.

Borat_Sagdiyev wrote:

One thing I don't understand though: why is everyone assuming that Dogen is dead? Was he not drowned in the same water that Sayid was drowned in?

Mr Nice Guy and I were arguing over this last week, but imo getting dipped in the spring was not the cause of Sayid's resurrection or infection.

Dman001

I think Miles pretty much confirmed that it wasnt the spring that resurected Sayid. As he said, it was 2 hours after he was submerged in the spring when he woke up, and the Others were surprised he woke up too

murpho999

9

Well I thought that was a fantastic episode, and one again I don't understand the complaints.

I really have faith in the writers in relation to the alt-timeline. I'm sure they know what they are doing and come the end of the season it will all make sense. Can people just be patient?

Loved, how Dogen manipulated Saayid, who in turn was manipulated by MIB.

Loved how Claire reacted to Kate.

Loved Smokey going in and zapped everyone.

Loved how Ben witnessed the turning of Saayid.

Could go on and on.

I think Dogen could be back. He died in the healing water, and also I found he didn't put up a huge struggle. Wonder if it's all a masterplan.
The season is going at a great pace now, shaping up to a big battle of Jacob's team v Mib's team.

Don't forget we still have to see what Jack and Sawyer do. Also , Richard Alpert is to return and I think he will be very important.
Fed up with people complaing about not enough answers before the season has finished. Especially when you compare it to the first 3 seasons which just threw up mystery after mystery after mystery.
I honestly feel that this show will have a classic and unforgetable ending and I'm really just enjoying it while it lasts.

Also, are we all convinced that Ben, after all, was always a good guy?

Sad Professor

7

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but I just saw an interesting idea on The Fuselage. When Jacob told Dogen that he could save his son's life but Dogen would have to come to the island and could never see him again, what if Jacob was referring to the sideways timeline? As we saw last week, Dogen's son is still alive in that reality. So maybe the flashsideways were all part of Jacob's plan.

The same could apply to what happened to Juliet's sister. She had cancer, but Ben told Juliet that Jacob said he would take care of her if she stayed on the island. Ben later showed her a video of her healthy sister with a son. Maybe this was actually the sideways timeline as well. And of course this would make sense, as Juliet needed to stay on the island so she could go back in time and cause the sideways reality to exist.

Richard took the video of Juliet's sister, so this would men the Others have a means of travelling to the other reality.

opinion guy

murpho999 wrote: »

Also, are we all convinced that Ben, after all, was always a good guy?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ur funny.

Sad Professor wrote: »

IBen later showed her a video of her healthy sister with a son. Maybe this was actually the sideways timeline as well. And of course this would make sense, as Juliet needed to stay on the island so she could go back in time and cause the sideways reality to exist.

This makes know sens as how would they get the video from one reality to another ?

Richard took the video of Juliet's sister, so this would men the Others have a means of travelling to the other reality.

Ah come on you are just entirely making this up - there is no basis for this in the show.

Sad Professor

7

opinion guy wrote: »

Ah come on you are just entirely making this up

Of course I am. Nobody knows anything. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

- there is no basis for this in the show.

Well, there was the underwater station called The Looking Glass, which was a reference to the mirror Alice used to travel to another reality. Why would Dharma use a submarine when boats, planes, helicopters did the trick just as well. The island is underwater in the sideways reality. There could easily be a connection between all these things.

But even disregarding the Juliet-video bit, the first part could still be true.

omniscient_toad

Isn't it possible that MIB is bound by similar rules to those preventing Dogen from harming "candidates? Although he's killed a number of characters none of them were visible in the cave/lighthouse section were they?

People keep referring to Dogens goal to have Sayid killed by MIB but you'll notice he's actually the second choice to be sent out to confront MIB, he initially asks for Jack and Hurley, again both candidates. When Claire speaks to him upon entering the temple and he refuses to come out in person, she tells him to send someone MIB "won't kill". It seems more likely that he turns to Sayid reluctantly as a last option, rather than as part of a circuitous assassination plot.

Jazzy

9

have you people learned nothing?

Dead is Dead. Dogen is dead

kryogen

8

Jazzy wrote: »

have you people learned nothing?

Dead is Dead. Dogen is dead

care to explain Sayid then?

opinion guy

kryogen wrote: »

care to explain Sayid then?

And Mikhail

Dempsey

5

opinion guy wrote: »

And Mikhail

When did he come back from the dead?

Jazzy

9

kryogen wrote: »

care to explain Sayid then?

too big a character to kill basically. its when its convenient. they needed a big statement of evil from sayid and they got it by having him kill dogen. he wont be back, ill bet the house on it


edit - im actually really enjoying this season. i love where they are going with it

opinion guy

omniscient_toad wrote: »

People keep referring to Dogens goal to have Sayid killed by MIB but you'll notice he's actually the second choice to be sent out to confront MIB, he initially asks for Jack and Hurley, again both candidates. When Claire speaks to him upon entering the temple and he refuses to come out in person, she tells him to send someone MIB "won't kill". It seems more likely that he turns to Sayid reluctantly as a last option, rather than as part of a circuitous assassination plot.

Oh yeah. Maybe Flocke couldn't kill Sayid even if he wanted to. Hmmm can you kill a zombie anyhow ? FLocke and Sayid are seemingly both 'undead' already.

Dempsey wrote: »

When did he come back from the dead?

Mikhail. Couple of times I think. The sonic fence fried his brain once and i think he was shot or something another time but he was still there to kill Charlie. I saw reference to it on another site which reminded me.

Dempsey

5

opinion guy wrote: »

Mikhail. Couple of times I think. The sonic fence fried his brain once and i think he was shot or something another time but he was still there to kill Charlie. I saw reference to it on another site which reminded me.

The fence wasnt set to kill according to Mikhail plus people can recover from injuries faster on the island.

Shot in the chest with an arrow but never checked if he was dead.

Its hard to determine when people actually die and when they are badly injured tbh and the writers have their excuse for surprise comebacks.

Ya can be grand in 1 day after a punctured lung, but cant survive a pregnancy. You cant get cancer but get a tumor and of course walk if you arrived paralyzed, if and when it suits.....the island :pac:

Soby

7

Thought for half a second Sayid was gonna stab kate

recylingbin

6

homerun_homer wrote: »

51 - Austen, scratched out on the Cave wall (not seen in the episode but confirmed by Darlton) but seen not scratched out in the Lighthouse.

Am I wrong in thinking that that isn't her real name though?

I felt really weird after watching it. You spend solong waiting for something to happen and then it all happens together. It's like being a diabetic all your life and then breaking into the cadbury's factory, being found in the morning by police, a quivering mess, with a belly full of chocolate.
While I was happy that something happened, I was, again, a little disappointed by the lack of answers.
I give it a 7.

Penn

7

budgemook wrote: »

Your not really answering what I'm asking. Fake Locke is controlling Claire, Sayid and his new followers for sure. I don't think it's based just on an offer. Sayid knows that trick very well. The fact that he has so many followers so quickly says to me he can control people just by talking to them.

I still don't think he's 'controlling' them, just manipulating them. He has so many followers so quickly because Sayids message said that if they didn't join him, he'd kill them. He hadn't even spoken to any of the Others who joined him. They chose to join him rather than be killed.

Claire is following him because he told her he'd help her get Aaron back. Sayid is following him because he told him he could be with Nadia. Sawyer is following him because it's his only way off the island.

If Fake Locke could just control people by speaking to them, he wouldn't need to promise them anything.

budgemook

9

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

I still don't think he's 'controlling' them, just manipulating them. He has so many followers so quickly because Sayids message said that if they didn't join him, he'd kill them. He hadn't even spoken to any of the Others who joined him. They chose to join him rather than be killed.

Claire is following him because he told her he'd help her get Aaron back. Sayid is following him because he told him he could be with Nadia. Sawyer is following him because it's his only way off the island.

If Fake Locke could just control people by speaking to them, he wouldn't need to promise them anything.

Why do they have a demonic crazy ass look about them so? Why is "evil growing within them"

I suppose though, going back to the star wars reference, the emperor didn't really control anakin, just promised him stuff and he turned evil by himself, although the change seems quicker in lost.

I still think fake Locke would have died had Sayid stabbed him quickly, I don't think that was a trick by Dogen. Hopefully we'll get an answer to that.

Sad Professor

7

I think it's a bit of both. More than just manipulation, but not quite control. Like Flagg in The Stand, I think MIB just has a very powerful influence over people which is hard to resist.

Although in the case of Sayid and Claire he may be in part responsible for their being alive. If this is true and he can give life to dead people (in return for their following him), then he can probably take it away just as easily.

nc6000

If this wasn't the final season I'd have stopped watching, I'm only barely hanging in there to see how it ends. From what I've seen so far in Season 6 we'll all be disappointed with the ending.

They are obviously making it up as they go along and had no idea of the ending when the show started.

From last nights episode there appear to have been about 40 people living in "The Temple". In the whole time since 815 crashes nobody encountered any of them or found the temple while moving around the island? :rolleyes:

It's getting pathetic now.

homerun_homer

6

Soby wrote: »

Thought for half a second Sayid was gonna stab kate

Nah, Claire will be looking to kill her.

homerun_homer

6

nc6000 wrote: »

If this wasn't the final season I'd have stopped watching, I'm only barely hanging in there to see how it ends. From what I've seen so far in Season 6 we'll all be disappointed with the ending.

They are obviously making it up as they go along and had no idea of the ending when the show started.

From last nights episode there appear to have been about 40 people living in "The Temple". In the whole time since 815 crashes nobody encountered any of them or found the temple while moving around the island? :rolleyes:

It's getting pathetic now.

OK, for the umpteenth time. The writers producers were asked to make a pilot for a show based on a plane crashing on a deserted island. That's all they knew at the time. Season 1 - Yes it was getting made up as they went along but in the season break they started to map things out and plan ahead. There came a point where they knew what the end game was and what the last scene would entail and they couldn't begin to realise this until they were given an ultimate end date.
So, no they are not making it up as they go along - they have had a plan for a few years now.

Temple others have been in the show before. What springs to mind the most is in Season 2 when Jin and the tailies hid and saw them walk by barefoot with the kids they kidnapped. I know Ben's others made lists of who to kidnap, but they are part of the same gang of others, just an outer ring of a larger group so to speak.
The guys never found the temple because they probably would have been caught beforehand. I know the french team got there easily enough but smokie was quick to attack so who knows what the lay of the land was in 1988 compared to 2004.

Sad Professor

7

We've known about the Temple since season 3. The 40 or so people living it in are pretty much the same group of Others who we saw leave Otherville in 3x15. They went to the Temple for sanctuary apparently because they knew Widmore was coming.

Hyzepher

It seems to me that Jacob and MiB were both unable to visit the temple. Why give Hurley a guitar case with a message inside with a list of names when he could of easily filled Dogen in on the plan and for him to expect them. Also Jacob spent his time in the statue not the temple so it seems to me that maybe the temple is a santuary from whatever is happening on the island. People go there because it is safe or they can use it to recover from their wounds etc.

brick tamland

7

When Sayid was talking about the one thing he really wanted died in his arms....was he definiatly talking about Nadia or could it possibly have been Shannon?

Penn

7

brick tamland wrote: »

When Sayid was talking about the one think he really wanted dying in his arms....was he definiatly talking about Nadia or could it possibly have been Shannon?

I'd say Nadia. He loved Nadia before he came to the island, and finally got to marry her after he left. Plus, the episode flash-sideways focused on him and Nadia. I'd say it's pretty much a certainty that he was talking about Nadia

budgemook

9

brick tamland wrote: »

When Sayid was talking about the one think he really wanted dying in his arms....was he definiatly talking about Nadia or could it possibly have been Shannon?

That's a very good question.

Hmmmm.

I can't even remember if Nadia did indeed die in his arms. Can anyone?

podgemonster

8

Definetly see similarities between The Stand occuring, Unlocke with the seductive traits of R.F. and people choosing sides. Maybe Hurley is Nick Andros, pure innocent and naive. The writers admitted a few years back that the first character the wrote in was Hurley, everyone else followed afterwards.

And as regards Sayid i think a whole Darth Vader persona exists and maybe at the end of series he will side with Jack and Hurley! Although Claires behaviour does bring doubt to that thought

Sayid's execution of Keamy reminded me of when Saywer kill that big fat other that took Walt!

One thing that concerned was Unlocke paid little attention to Sun who is a potential candidate. By the episode title 'Sundown' i thought that it was a Jin and Sun episode. Looking forward to when she meet Jin actually, could be some tears. She hasnt seen him since the freighter exploded right? She must be gagging for it!:D

podgemonster

8

budgemook wrote: »

That's a very good question.

Hmmmm.

I can't even remember if Nadia did indeed die in his arms. Can anyone?

I think he picked her up after she landed! Did she say something to him??

Penn

7

budgemook wrote: »

That's a very good question.

Hmmmm.

I can't even remember if Nadia did indeed die in his arms. Can anyone?

She did I think. After she was hit by the car, Sayid ran over to her and held her. Hard to say if she actually "died" in his arms, but it's more a figure of speech really. Same with Shannon, I can't remember if she actually died in Sayid's arms, or if he ran over to her after she hit the ground.

Penn

7

podgemonster wrote: »

I think he picked her up after she landed! Did she say something to him??

Actually, yeah, she said "Take me home" to Sayid just before dying. Thats why the funeral was in Iraq