[US/IRL] 6x06 - "Sundown" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Dempsey

5

JohnK wrote: »

I’d disagree here, the flash sideways show that while he certainly strives to be a good man he ultimately fails and returns to the world of violence and killing which was mirrored on the island when he killed Dogen and the other guy. From what we’ve seen everyone elses life seems markedly different in the sideways world but Sayid isn’t really different at all – he ends up being a killer in both.

I never said he succeeded in being a good man though and I dont think there is a big difference in any of flash sideways. Whilst they all seem different at first, the people are essentially the same people making the same decisions/mistakes, have the same issues as the original timeline.

Patricide

6

Gets a big meh from me. Which was a shame because the last 2 episodes i thought were pretty good...

Necronomicon

The writing was on the wall for Dogen as soon as he started telling his life story, thought it was quite predictable (it's like showing someone pictures of your kids in movies ffs ) but I'm a little disappointed, I liked him.

Overall I really liked the episode, fantastic pace. Though again, the 'flash-sideways' aren't doing it for me. I have faith that the writers will reconcile the arc well, but for now I find them a bit frustrating. Mainly, because it feels like a game of 'how many characters can we fit into a flash?'. I mean when Sayid was being taken into the building and we saw the back of Keamy without seeing his face, it was obviously going to be 'someone'. Ditto when we heard the muffled cries of Jin. Just feels very forced IMO.

homerun_homer

6

Jay Ru wrote: »

Also i'm starting to think Smokie killed Mr Echo only because he knew he cudn't control him. MIB did speak to Sayid before Sayid managed to stick the knive into his chest, therefore un-doing whatever power the knive had, and by MIB speaking to him he managed to gain some control and didn't have to kill Sayid. Smokie in the form of Yemi spoke to Echo a couple of times but finally realised he cudn't control him so he killed him.

The whole "Kill him before he talks is a ruse. Dogen wanted MIB to kill Sayid for him. The whole 'Don't let him talk' thing is so Sayid wouldn't get drawn to temptation.

me-skywalker wrote: »

Did they contradict themselves with the whole MIB becoming dead people?
Didn't Ilana say he is now 'stuck' as Locke yet Dogen said he will come to Sayid as someone he knew who died? Although the kicker here is that we all assumed it would be Nadia yet he appeared as Locke... But is it not true that Sayid never knew that Locke was dead?

Dogen wasn't telling Sayid this thinking MIB would manifest himself as someone important from Sayid's life (i.e. Nadia) but someone he knew, and who was dead. Dogen would be sure of what Ilana knew, that MIB was now in the form of a dead person and wouldn't be able to change.

don ramo wrote: »

also looking at the bigger picture why is kate still around, shes not a candidate

51 - Austen, scratched out on the Cave wall (not seen in the episode but confirmed by Darlton) but seen not scratched out in the Lighthouse.

Necronomicon wrote: »

The writing was on the wall for Dogen as soon as he started telling his life story, thought it was quite predictable (it's like showing someone pictures of your kids in movies ffs ) but I'm a little disappointed, I liked him.

Picture the scene:-2 soldiers at war

Soldier 1: "Hey did I ever show you a picture of my girl back home?"
*Shows Soldier 2 a picture*
Soldier 2: "Nice"
Soldier 1: "I'm gonna ask her to marry me when I get back"

HE'S A GONER!!

TonyD79

7

In think the fact that Juliet said it worked to Sawyer shows that the bomb going off in the 1970s lead to what were seeing in the flashsideways.Faradays theory seemingly worked but the question is what are the consequences.

Penn

7

JohnK wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, with all the other people Jacobs influence began when they were very young so its likely that Jacob was working on Dogen for quite some time and its possible he even engineered the promotion that lead to the drinking which caused the car crash. So with Jacob out of the picture that promotion may have never happened which would mean Dogen wouldn’t have been drinking so the crash would have never occurred.

I see it that way too. Similar to Nadia being hit by the car while Jacob prevented Sayid from being hit. Jacob may have influenced Dogen in some way before the accident which ended up causing the accident, because Jacob needed Dogen to come to the island

Dymo

4

Not my points but I agree with them

Let me get this straight...

Dogen had Sayid tied down and "tested" him. Sayid didn't pass the test. Dogen didn't kill him, let him go, and then tried to get Jack to get Sayid to "willingly" take the poison pill. So in this episode Dogen attacks Sayid (because someone wanted to film a fight scene), tries to kill him but let's him go because a baseball fell to the floor. Dogen then tells Sayid to leave the temple but then decides he's going to trick Sayid into trying to kill Locke thinking Locke will kill Sayid... because Dogen apparently wants Sayid dead now. Is this making any sense?

So Sayid decides to kill Dogen and his little translator buddy. Dogen was the only one keeping the smoke monster out of the temple. How? Who knows. Probably "magic".

The Flash Sideways. ZZZzzz. Did you guys know Sayid is haunted because he tortured people? Oh, and remember, Jack has Daddy issues and Kate runs. These characters are a richly developed tapestry aren't they?

This week's Flash Sideways cameo: the soldier guy who shot Ben's daughter. In the Alt Timeline, soldier guy is a loan shark and he's also apparently practicing for Top Chef. Oh, and Jin's tied up in a closet.

Miles tells Kate about Claire. She's acting weird but she's still hot. Has he seen her hair? Somebody get Claire a comb for that badger on her head.

Kate came back to rescue Claire? What was that plan exactly? Go back to the island, find Claire, and... do what? Take the first flight home?

Kate tells Claire she took Aaron and came back for her. Claire cartoonishly glares at Kate with hatred and tells her she's not the one who needs rescued but somehow Kate misses the over-the-top sinister glare and the next thing you know they're leaving the temple together.

Oh, and if you need to avoid the Smoke Monster, jump in a hole. Apparently it can't look down.

jimbling

Dempsey wrote: »

e.g Sayid wanting to prove himself to be different from the man that tortured people in the Republican Guard was done already. We know that he strives to be a good man because of his past. There was nothing in the flash sideways that seemed to matter.

JohnK wrote: »

I’d disagree here, the flash sideways show that while he certainly strives to be a good man he ultimately fails and returns to the world of violence and killing which was mirrored on the island when he killed Dogen and the other guy.

Dempsey wrote: »

I never said he succeeded in being a good man though and I dont think there is a big difference in any of flash sideways. Whilst they all seem different at first, the people are essentially the same people making the same decisions/mistakes, have the same issues as the original timeline.

The point is, your first quote states that we already knew that he strives to be a good man and that there was nothing new in the flash sideways.
But there was. He failed. He had no real need to kill Keamy, but he did it anyway.
It's basically Sayid coming full circle, both in the flash sideways and in the on-island action. How can you see that as unimportant?

jimbling

Sad Professor wrote: »

I loved this ep.

I expected Dogen to die. In fact I expect a lot more people to die soon. This is the final season and they have too many characters. There's bound to be a culling soon. Although I will miss John Hawkes's character. I wish we'd gotten a bit more about him.

I actually never really liked Dogen to be honest. I was also assuming he was going to die pretty soon.

Sad Professor wrote: »

MIB so totally evil. Jacob asks for sacrifice, while MIB offers everything on a silver plate. His behaviour is perfectly consistent with with him being a Satanic figure. In fact he reminded me of Randall Flagg in this episode. Which is great because I've been waiting for a Randall Flagg-type figure to show up since the start. Funnily enough, it was initially theorised by many that Locke would be it.

lol, I remember having that conversation with you a few years ago. I was just after finishing reading the Dark Tower series at the time.

Penn

7

Dymo wrote: »

Not my points but I agree with them

Let me get this straight...

Dogen had Sayid tied down and "tested" him. Sayid didn't pass the test. Dogen didn't kill him, let him go, and then tried to get Jack to get Sayid to "willingly" take the poison pill. So in this episode Dogen attacks Sayid (because someone wanted to film a fight scene), tries to kill him but let's him go because a baseball fell to the floor. Dogen then tells Sayid to leave the temple but then decides he's going to trick Sayid into trying to kill Locke thinking Locke will kill Sayid... because Dogen apparently wants Sayid dead now. Is this making any sense?

If Dogen killed Sayid, he'd run the risk of Jack, Hurley etc leaving the Temple, and Jacobs instructions seemed to be for Dogen to protect them. Tricking Jack into killing him, he could have manipulated them somehow. As for tricking Sayid into killing Locke, I thought that was pretty well explained.

So Sayid decides to kill Dogen and his little translator buddy. Dogen was the only one keeping the smoke monster out of the temple. How? Who knows. Probably "magic".

Who knows, but I'm sure they'll explain it somehow

The Flash Sideways. ZZZzzz. Did you guys know Sayid is haunted because he tortured people? Oh, and remember, Jack has Daddy issues and Kate runs. These characters are a richly developed tapestry aren't they?

Thats how they're the same as before. But the focus is how they're different now. Jack has daddy issues, as a father. Sayid is haunted because he tortured people, but he still hasn't forgiven himself, and gave up the one thing he wanted most, whereas before, it was all he wanted.

This week's Flash Sideways cameo: the soldier guy who shot Ben's daughter. In the Alt Timeline, soldier guy is a loan shark and he's also apparently practicing for Top Chef. Oh, and Jin's tied up in a closet.

The one thing I picked up is that Keamy and Omar died, just like they did on the island. Perhaps they are destined to die in both timelines, which means the same might happen to people like Charlie, Boone etc in the Alt-timeline

Miles tells Kate about Claire. She's acting weird but she's still hot. Has he seen her hair? Somebody get Claire a comb for that badger on her head.

Holes a hole

Kate came back to rescue Claire? What was that plan exactly? Go back to the island, find Claire, and... do what? Take the first flight home?

But if there was a way to get back to the island, it would theoretically be easier to leave it again. Kate couldn't have known about going back to 1977

Kate tells Claire she took Aaron and came back for her. Claire cartoonishly glares at Kate with hatred and tells her she's not the one who needs rescued but somehow Kate misses the over-the-top sinister glare and the next thing you know they're leaving the temple together.

Kate didn't really have a choice. She had to stay with Claire because of Smokey, and Claire wouldn't want to kill Kate yet until she finds out where Aaron is. And Smokey can help her do that.

Oh, and if you need to avoid the Smoke Monster, jump in a hole. Apparently it can't look down.

Or it didn't really care about Kate, or didn't want to kill her yet. He was mostly going after the Others in the Temple

I thought it was a good episode. The flash-sideways were, like the past few weeks, fairly uneventful, but interesting nonetheless, and I look forward to seeing what part it plays as the show progresses. Sayid pulling Dogen into the pool was badass too. I actually started to like Dogen, thought he was really interesting

Sad Professor

7

Dymo wrote: »

Dogen had Sayid tied down and "tested" him. Sayid didn't pass the test. Dogen didn't kill him, let him go, and then tried to get Jack to get Sayid to "willingly" take the poison pill. So in this episode Dogen attacks Sayid (because someone wanted to film a fight scene), tries to kill him but let's him go because a baseball fell to the floor. Dogen then tells Sayid to leave the temple but then decides he's going to trick Sayid into trying to kill Locke thinking Locke will kill Sayid... because Dogen apparently wants Sayid dead now. Is this making any sense?

Dogen knows the "darkness" will take Sayid eventually. He wants him dead, but for whatever reason he can't do it himself. The baseball belonged to his son and is a reminder of what he lost. I don't see a problem with any of this.

So Sayid decides to kill Dogen and his little translator buddy. Dogen was the only one keeping the smoke monster out of the temple. How? Who knows. Probably "magic".

As I said earlier, the ash is a magic circle. And a magic circle is usually created by a practitioner (i.e. a witch or magician). I'm not sure, but I think it makes sense that when the person who created the circle dies the protection no longer works. I think this is what Dogen's role was.

jimbling wrote:

lol, I remember having that conversation with you a few years ago. I was just after finishing reading the Dark Tower series at the time.

Yeah, I remember. Claire really reminded me of Nadine Cross in this episode. It really fits in with the dreams she had in season 1.


I think this was MIB she was dreaming about. Just like how Nadine dreamed of Flagg. Of course we know what that means for poor Claire. It might also explain Aaron's importance. He's MIB's replacement. That's what the psychic saw in Aaron's future.

So:

Mother Abagail = Jacob
Randall Flagg = MIB/UnLocke
Nadine Cross = Claire

Stu, Frannie, etc are obvious. But who's Harold Lauder (the traitor)? Trashcan Man? Nick Andros (someone significant has to die)?

I think Sawyer will pay the role of Larry Underwood in the end. That would mean him saving Jack and going off to die in his place.

jimbling

Sad Professor wrote: »

Yeah, I remember. Claire really reminded me of Nadine Cross in this episode. It really fits in with the dreams she had in season 1.


I think this was MIB she was dreaming about. Just like how Nadine dreamed of Flagg. Of course we know what that means for poor Claire. It might also explain Aaron's importance. He's MIB's replacement. That's what the psychic saw in Aaron's future.

Very nice, didnt think of that with Aaron.
In that dream, didn't lock have one black eye one white eye, or am I remembering it wrong? I cant really see his other eye in that photo.

If I'm correct, that would mean it was still undecided at that point if locke was going to turn good or bad...i.e. he had the potential to become body for either MIB or Jacob. I think the fact that Locke was so easily manipulated and pushed towards death meant that he ultimately failed Jacob.

Woddle

9

tok9 wrote: »

I was gutted to see Sayid go all bad.. !

I'm still not convinced he is bad, the scales could have been tipped in favour of bad over good as he still hasn't done enough good to compensate for all the bad that he has done and also the Sayid I know would certainly kill a man who has tried to kill him twice aswell as torture, we all know he loves Nadia, so if I was Sayid and I was offered Nadia and all I had to do was kill the dude that wanted me dead, sure absolutely I'll do it.

jimbling

Sad Professor wrote: »

So:

Mother Abagail = Jacob
Randall Flagg = MIB/UnLocke
Nadine Cross = Claire

Stu, Frannie, etc are obvious. But who's Harold Lauder (the traitor)? Trashcan Man? Nick Andros (someone significant has to die)?

I think Sawyer will pay the role of Larry Underwood in the end. That would mean him saving Jack and going off to die in his place.

Ya, Abagail and Flagg are decided.
Not sure they're going to have someone for every role. You could see Sayid as the traitor I guess. Ultimately it is his actions in this episode that created the war. He knowingly shifted to the other side...most others were manipulated/lied to to get them to do certain things.

Ya, Sawyer is Larry all right.... always was.
Not sure about Nick Andros..... cant even remember who he was to be honest.

jimbling

Woddle wrote: »

I'm still not convinced he is bad, the scales could have been tipped in favour of bad over good as he still hasn't done enough good to compensate for all the bad that he has done and also the Sayid I know would certainly kill a man who has tried to kill him twice aswell as torture, we all know he loves Nadia, so if I was Sayid and I was offered Nadia and all I had to do was kill the dude that wanted me dead, sure absolutely I'll do it.

Oh he is bad all right. Everything about him, and the way he was portrayed in this episode, shows he's resigned to the role now.

opinion guy

JohnK wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, with all the other people Jacobs influence began when they were very young so its likely that Jacob was working on Dogen for quite some time and its possible he even engineered the promotion that lead to the drinking which caused the car crash. So with Jacob out of the picture that promotion may have never happened which would mean Dogen wouldn’t have been drinking so the crash would have never occurred.

Completely agree with this. Take Sawyer for example. He showed up at the funeral of Sawyers mom and essentially set him off on a path of vengeance.


Hmm this episode gave me a new theory on what the show is all about. The part were MIB recruits Sayer I think it is, he tells a story of how he knows what it is to lose loved ones etc etc. This totally reminded me of the film Dogma - in fact you can draw several links - they talk about loopholes in the film also. So I posit - perhaps Jacob and MIB are two cast down angels, banished for whatever reason to live out their days on the island/Earth (perhaps the island is Eden or just a mystical prison). They have ideological differences about how they should live and as there is apparently a set of rules whereby they can't kill each other, have to play out their differences using mankind. Jacob clearly is the maniuplator whilst MIB is more a fan of direct action. So I think the loophole, like in dogma, is some way in which MIB has found a way to get home (so I don't think home is off the island, I think its Heaven). In this little theory, I suspect the alternate reailty is how the world would be if Jacob and MIB were never cast down, and MIB is currently setting about some plan of action to make that happen (to which Jacob is opposed for whatever reason - again this was a factor in Dogma).

Anyhow....its probably wrong...but if its even part right I'll be quite pleased with myself:D

Quite apart from that has anyone else noticed they have now set up at least three antagonistic pairs amongst the main characters (apart from the obvious Jacob-MIB). Jack Vs Sawyer, Sayid vs Ben & Kate vs Claire. I suspect death-match will be the eventual outcome (with Sawyer being the wildcard as to what side he will ultimately take....hmmm mind you now thsat I say that Jack is kind of want to change sides also).


My favourite character has to be Sayid. Constantly seeking redemption and constantly being foiled by other people's ambitions and manipulations (ok - apart fromt he odd revenge murdering spress that is). He by a long way has my sympathies because he's th eonly charcater who actually seeks to simply live a good life, all the others in one way or another have selfish interests. I think his 'conversion' at the end of the episode rather than being a conversion to evil, is more a decision to actually be selfish to get what he wants.

Ben is the other interesting one and I'd say Sayid's nemesis. He's quite obviously a broken man - and I have to say acted brilliantly by the actor. Him backing away meekly from a now powerful Sayid was a touch of brilliance. I wonder if Ben is going to undergo a converison also from being the selfish one to a selfless one.

Anyhow....looking forward for more.
Now to go watch some Caprica....

Sad Professor

7

jimbling wrote: »

Very nice, didnt think of that with Aaron.
In that dream, didn't lock have one black eye one white eye, or am I remembering it wrong? I cant really see his other eye in that photo.

If I'm correct, that would mean it was still undecided at that point if locke was going to turn good or bad...i.e. he had the potential to become body for either MIB or Jacob. I think the fact that Locke was so easily manipulated and pushed towards death meant that he ultimately failed Jacob.

I don't think Locke failed Jacob, I think he remained good until the end. It's not his fault Ben killed him. Similarly, I don't think he had any control over MIB's decision to take his form and memories. Evil doesn't ask permission.

Re: the eye
Yeah one of them is white, but it's not really clear in the picture. My interpretation of this is that the white eye represents the piece of the real Locke that MIB inadvertently took when he scanned Locke's memories. Hence the "you can't tell me what I can't do". I doubt the real Locke will reassert himself within MIB as I think it was only a small piece of the real Locke that he took. But enough to lay the seeds of MIB's eventual undoing.

Dempsey

5

Dymo wrote: »

Oh, and if you need to avoid the Smoke Monster, jump in a hole. Apparently it can't look down.

And he can be summoned by pulling a plug in a bath....:pac:

jimbling wrote: »

The point is, your first quote states that we already knew that he strives to be a good man and that there was nothing new in the flash sideways.
But there was. He failed. He had no real need to kill Keamy, but he did it anyway.
It's basically Sayid coming full circle, both in the flash sideways and in the on-island action. How can you see that as unimportant?

He had failed in the original timeline long before the 6th season. He tortured and killed how many people on the island. How many people did he kill for Ben? You say 'he failed' like he was succeeding up until he got infected but in truth, he had fallen off the bandwagon well before this.

opinion guy wrote: »

Completely agree with this. Take Sawyer for example. He showed up at the funeral of Sawyers mom and essentially set him off on a path of vengeance.

Thinking about this myself

First it seems that Jacob wants people to think they made their own choice in coming to the island but it was actually his. This is alot like the "Long Con" where you get what you want by making the person think that it was their idea.

I doubt that we'll be left with traditional heros and villians, more like which anti hero you identify with the most.

Sherifu

7

Was nice to see the attack on the temple. Good episode. Always nice to see Martin Keamy.

homerun_homer

6

TonyD79 wrote: »

In think the fact that Juliet said it worked to Sawyer shows that the bomb going off in the 1970s lead to what were seeing in the flashsideways.Faradays theory seemingly worked but the question is what are the consequences.

I wonder if when characters now die on the island their consciousness to that point merges with themselves in the time when the island is sunken. Juliet seems to be a clue to this line of thinking. As she died it was like she's possibly halfway between worlds, like a lucid dream that you're semi-conscious through.

I've no firm belief yet as to what I think will happen.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Dogen knows the "darkness" will take Sayid eventually. He wants him dead, but for whatever reason he can't do it himself. The baseball belonged to his son and is a reminder of what he lost. I don't see a problem with any of this.

The way I see it is Jacob has Dogen as a protector of the temple and for Dogen to kill someone from Jacob's candidate list would ruin/mess up his job Jacob has him doing. Seeing the baseball was a reminder of all he sacrificed to take the position, which was having his son saved but never getting to see him again. At that moment he could snap out of his desire to kill the evil Sayid and honored his position as guardian.

Woddle

9

homerun_homer wrote: »

The way I see it is Jacob has Dogen as a protector of the temple and for Dogen to kill someone from Jacob's candidate list would ruin mess up his job Jacob has him doing.

Spot on as Hurley last week told Dogen he was a candidate and Dogen said sth in Japanese I think about chopping his head off

AnonoBoy

opinion guy wrote: »

My favourite character has to be Sayid. He by a long way has my sympathies because he's the only charcater who actually seeks to simply live a good life, all the others in one way or another have selfish interests.

What about Hurley? He's a good guy.

opinion guy

AnonoBoy wrote: »

What about Hurley? He's a good guy.

That's true actually. but he kinda has given up thou. He doesn't want anything. He doens't even quesiton anything anymore. He just goes along with whatever random **** happens. He is kind of entirely pawn at this point wouldn't you say ?

jimbling

Dempsey wrote: »

He had failed in the original timeline long before the 6th season. He tortured and killed how many people on the island. How many people did he kill for Ben? You say 'he failed' like he was succeeding up until he got infected but in truth, he had fallen off the bandwagon well before this.

Ya, you're right there all right. Tired this morning, kinda forgot about the damage he did for ben during the 3 years off the island.

jimbling

Sad Professor wrote: »

I don't think Locke failed Jacob, I think he remained good until the end. It's not his fault Ben killed him. Similarly, I don't think he had any control over MIB's decision to take his form and memories. Evil doesn't ask permission.

I know where you're coming from, but must say I disagree to some extent. I think Locke did let Jacob down. No, it wasn't his fault Ben killed him, but Locke was going to kill himself anyway.
John was never able to overcome his own self doubt. That's why he failed.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Re: the eye
Yeah one of them is white, but it's not really clear in the picture. My interpretation of this is that the white eye represents the piece of the real Locke that MIB inadvertently took when he scanned Locke's memories. Hence the "you can't tell me what I can't do". I doubt the real Locke will reassert himself within MIB as I think it was only a small piece of the real Locke that he took. But enough to lay the seeds of MIB's eventual undoing.

That's pretty class to think of and I really hope you're right. It would redeem Locke for his failings (which I believe are as described above) which we all want to see.

purple_hatstand

opinion guy wrote: »

That's true actually. but he kinda has given up thou. He doesn't want anything. He doens't even quesiton anything anymore. He just goes along with whatever random **** happens. He is kind of entirely pawn at this point wouldn't you say ?

Quite.

From the outset, Hurley has been the show's representation of the audience.

Anyhoo, really enjoying the season so far - the two sides are taking shape nicely and the payoffs are slowly revealing themselves through the off-island story threads...Ilana's next move could be interesting...

Dempsey

5

jimbling wrote: »

Ya, you're right there all right. Tired this morning, kinda forgot about the damage he did for ben during the 3 years off the island.

Yea, there is loads of stuff that you forget about, important stuff, until you start watching some old episodes again.

Actually as I write this post I'm watching S04E03 and as I was writing the above, Sayid says "Forgive me but the day I start trusting him (pointing at Ben) is the day I would've sold my soul"

How about that for some Lost extreme coincidence bullcrap!

Penn

7

jimbling wrote: »

I know where you're coming from, but must say I disagree to some extent. I think Locke did let Jacob down. No, it wasn't his fault Ben killed him, but Locke was going to kill himself anyway.
John was never able to overcome his own self doubt. That's why he failed.

Locke was only going to kill himself because that's what he thought he had to do. Richard and Christian (most likely MIB) told Locke he'd have to die in order to bring everyone back to the island. But as it turned out, it was MIB that told Richard to say it to him. Locke thought that he was a sacrifice that the island demanded, which would be what Jacob wanted. But he was tricked by MIB.

Locke was prepared to sacrifice his own life in order to save the island. Whether he was tricked into doing it or not, he thought he was doing it for the island and for Jacob.

jimbling

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Locke was only going to kill himself because that's what he thought he had to do. Richard and Christian (most likely MIB) told Locke he'd have to die in order to bring everyone back to the island. But as it turned out, it was MIB that told Richard to say it to him. Locke thought that he was a sacrifice that the island demanded, which would be what Jacob wanted. But he was tricked by MIB.

Locke was prepared to sacrifice his own life in order to save the island. Whether he was tricked into doing it or not, he thought he was doing it for the island and for Jacob.

Yep, I know, but it doesnt change the fact that he was doing MIBs bidding and not Jacob.
Just because someone thinks you're doing good doesnt really change much. Suicide bombers think they're doing great things and are going to bask in the glory of god for all eternity...... they're not... they're just killing innocent people.

jimbling

In fairness though.... perhaps this is Jacobs plan all along. I mean he didn't exactly try and guide Locke to his side did he. Seems like he just let it happen.

So, even though I think Locke showed great weakness in being so easily manipulated by MIB (and pretty much everyone ), it could be that these very qualities are what brings MIB down in the end.

i.e. if MIB had become Fayid instead of Flocke the island could be a whole hell of a lot worse off. (this is coming from SPs theory that some of locke is still in there and will come into play - love this theory)