Not a happy bunny

Richard tea

Where do I stand with this one ( if anywhere at all )

I bought a second hand car recently off a small dealer. He gave a one month engine & gearbox warranty. After three weeks the clutch started making a screeching noise when I pressed down on it. I brought it to my mechanic and he informed me that it needs a new clutch. The work will amount to around 800 euro.

I rang the dealer and pleaded my case but he is having none of it, he wont even meet me half way on the costs. Some people are telling me that the clutch should be covered under the gearbox warranty & some people are telling me the opposite. He is not registered with the SIMI as far as I know.

So what do you think. Would I be wasting time & money going down a legal route? or has anybody been in a similar situation and actually got something back

Jip

A clutch would be seen as part of normal wear and tear.

irishejit

Unless you got the warranty in writing I don't think you could do a thing about it, hateful as that may be

Cuddlesworth

Legal route. Get the work done now and go after him with the bill.

Gumbo

legally he has to give you a 3 month warranty.
have you got receipts etc from the purchase?

could send him a solicitors letter.

Edit - clutch would be normal wear and tear but im surprised he wont even give a contribution towards it.

Cuddlesworth

Jip wrote: »

A clutch would be seen as part of normal wear and tear.

You can't claim wear and tear after three weeks.

irishejit wrote: »

Unless you got the warranty in writing I don't think you could do a thing about it, hateful as that may be

Any car bought new or second hand comes with a warranty regardless of what the dealer states. And there is no limitation on the time of this in Irish law.

mickdw

You should have got 3 months I guess but I doubt you will get anywhere with a claim for a clutch regardless. For all anyone knows, you could have been using the pedal as a footrest while driving for the last 3 weeks leading to you burning it out. Im not saying you did that but clutches are a wear item and the dealer will always have that reason for not doing it under warranty.

What type of car?
€800 sounds like alot to be paying for a clutch. I also assume thw car is not worth much when you got just 1 month with it & were happy with that.

He should really meet you halfway and pay for the parts as a gesture of goodwill. Solicitor letter is a waste if time, legally you have no come back, you could have been doing wheelspins for the three weeks for all he knows.

What goes around comes around

Jip

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You can't claim wear and tear after three weeks.



Any car bought new or second hand comes with a warranty regardless of what the dealer states. And there is no limitation on the time of this in Irish law.

So at what point when buying a second hand car does a clutch failing become part of wear and tear ? I'm not siding with the dealer, just saying that that's how it's viewed.

Richard tea

I paid 5000 for the car. One month warranty didn't seem right but regardless of the duration of the warranty it looks like the sentiment here is just take the hit. I guess you win some you loose some.

The 800 euro covers the clutch kit and flywheel ting-a-ma-gig. could be less.

I have the warranty covering the engine and gearbox in writing. But has since expired in the last few days.

The likely hood is, a quick fix was done on the clutch just for the sale. Cant prove that I suppose though.
Hopefully when its fixed it will be trouble free foe a while:rolleyes:

They wouldn't have done a quick fix, just bad luck I reckon. What is it a Mondeo ?

Henry Ford III

gumbo wrote: »

legally he has to give you a 3 month warranty.
have you got receipts etc from the purchase?

I've seen this on here before. I think it's perhaps an urban myth. Many cars are still sold "as seen".

Can you substantiate?

mickdw

I doubt a quick fix was done but if its a Dual Mass flywheel, it may well have been knocking when you bought it. What type of car?

Cuddlesworth

OP take this to the consumer issues forum and see what the response is. There are too many people working in the trade here to get a rather unbiased opinion.

Cuddlesworth

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

OP take this to the consumer issues forum and see what the response is. There are too many people working in the trade here to get a rather unbiased opinion.

The vast majority of them are very very helpful in these sort of threads, it's only when they are trying to flog Renaults to folk their bias comes out

Of who has posted who do you reckon are in the trade ?
I reckon one only max, and I doubt they are fulltime in it.

Gumbo

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I've seen this on here before. I think it's perhaps an urban myth. Many cars are still sold "as seen".

Can you substantiate?

yes but with the trade ads, its clearly stated as a trade ad.
any car deal a private individual enters through a garage has to legally have a 3 month warranty minimum unless otherwise agreed in writting between the purchaser and the garage, and these are the trade/sold as seen ads you are on about.

im sure theres tons of proof of the 3 month warranty, heck ive gotten them myself on tons of cars ive bought from 2k runarounds to 32k X5's.

whats with the "Can you substantiate" question?

Richard tea

Its a Peoguet 407. 95,000 miles, 2005

dvae

I'm not sure about your warranty but 800 for a clutch seems mad.
If he is prepared to charge you 800 euro just after you buying the car it just goes to show you how much of an ass hole he is...
I have an Nissan primera and had to get the hole clutch replaced about 3 years ago, it cost me 320 euro..
clutch e150
labor e150
gear oil e20
I cant See prices going up that much since then especially with a recession.
If you cant get him to fix it under warranty id shop arround......

Richard tea

dvae wrote: »

I'm not sure about your warranty but 800 for a clutch seems mad.
If he is prepared to charge you 800 euro just after you buying the car it just goes to show you how much of an ass hole he is...
I have an Nissan primera and had to get the hole clutch replaced about 3 years ago, it cost me 320 euro..
clutch e150
labor e150
gear oil e20
I cant See prices going up that much since then especially with a recession.
If you cant get him to fix it under warranty id shop arround......

Its been fixed by my own mechanic. Parts and labour for under 800. It could only come to 650. Not sure at the mo.

dvae

dvae wrote: »

I'm not sure about your warranty but 800 for a clutch seems mad.
If he is prepared to charge you 800 euro just after you buying the car it just goes to show you how much of an ass hole he is...
I have an Nissan primera and had to get the hole clutch replaced about 3 years ago, it cost me 320 euro..
clutch e150
labor e150
gear oil e20
I cant See prices going up that much since then especially with a recession.
If you cant get him to fix it under warranty id shop arround......

You didn't have a dual mass flywheel

Richard tea

RoverJames wrote: »

You didn't have a dual mass flywheel

yeah im getting a clutch kit and flywheel done. I think its around 500 for parts plus 250 labour.

Henry Ford III

gumbo wrote: »

yes but with the trade ads, its clearly stated as a trade ad.
any car deal a private individual enters through a garage has to legally have a 3 month warranty minimum unless otherwise agreed in writting between the purchaser and the garage, and these are the trade/sold as seen ads you are on about.

im sure theres tons of proof of the 3 month warranty, heck ive gotten them myself on tons of cars ive bought from 2k runarounds to 32k X5's.

So a dealer can't sell a member of the public a car "sold as seen"?

I'd love to see where the minimum 3 month warranty is on the statute books. Can you point me in the right direction please?

bladebrew

the same thing happened me,the car was bought with a 3 month engine and gearbox warranty,after a few weeks the clutch started making noise and eventually went,the garage i bought if off pointed out it wasnt a problem with the engine or gearbox but said they would pay for parts which was €82, the total repair for the clutch was around €680,

i doubt dealers have to offer a warranty with used cars, i got three months,i know someone last week who got a 2 month warranty and you received one month,surely dealers would be broke if they had to offer a 3 month warranty on all cars?

Gumbo

Henry Ford III wrote: »

So a dealer can't sell a member of the public a car "sold as seen"?

yes they can, but as i said they are clearly marked as trade/sold as seen sales, not your typical sale that a member of the public will stumble in and buy.

are you saying thers no law on providing a warranty on a used car?

Hagar

bladebrew wrote: »

surely dealers would be broke if they had to offer a 3 month warranty on all cars?

Not if the cars they were selling were in half decent order.

bladebrew

69 wrote: »

Not if the cars they were selling were in half decent order.

but some car dealers have no problems selling pieces of crap to the public,

actually if dealers were forced to offer a 3 month warranty on all used cars they would make sure cars they are selling are in perfect condition

zilog_jones

Sale Of Goods And Supply Of Services Act 1980 (the only thing I remember from Leaving Cert Business Studies ):
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0013.html#zza16y1980s13

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/FAQs/Faulty-goods/

I don't know where this "3 months" thing comes from, I don't think there is a law that specific.

Personally I don't know about this case - the clutch is a "wear and tear" item but it does seem a bit suspicious that it's going only 3 weeks after purchase.

Henry Ford III

zilog_jones wrote: »

Sale Of Goods And Supply Of Services Act 1980 (the only thing I remember from Leaving Cert Business Studies ):
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0013.html#zza16y1980s13

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/FAQs/Faulty-goods/

I don't know where this "3 months" thing comes from, I don't think there is a law that specific.

Personally I don't know about this case - the clutch is a "wear and tear" item but it does seem a bit suspicious that it's going only 3 weeks after purchase.

Nor do I Zilog. I think it's one of those things whereby if enough people read it over and over, they'll eventually start to believe and repeat it.

Padraig Mor

What's with all the posters telling the OP that it's basically tough? He clearly has a case here! The law stipulates that goods must be of merchantable quality - according to the Consumer Agency this means roadworthy in the case of cars and further defines it as "reasonable, acceptable quality given what was said about them and taking into account the age and history of the vehicle".

Look at the car in this case. It's not a junker the OP bought for a couple of ton from Dodgy Dave - it's a 2005 car with 95k miles costing 5 grand! Sure, 95k is a good few miles, but it's hardly astronomical. For the clutch to go after 3 weeks, it was clearly 'on the way out' when sold. While the law seems not to define a minimum warranty, one month is complete bollocks and contravenes the OP's rights. TBH the OP should have walked out of the garage at that point - this is obviously not a professional outfit.

OP, you have a very strong case. I would proceed as follows:
1. Don't ring the garage any more. Send them a registered letter setting out the facts of the case and point out that you believe that the car was sold to you with a defect and was not of merchantable quality, in contravention of the Sale of Goods Act. Inform them that they have a period - say a week - to rectify the defect to your satisfaction or you will be proceeding to the Small Claims Court. If you're not comfortable writing such a letter, ask a friend (no need for a solicitor) - hell, I'll do it if you want.

2. If they won't do it, get it done elsewhere and then lodge a claim with the SCC for the cost. This will only cost you a tenner and you don't need a solicitor.

Chances are they'll sort you out. If they don't the worst that can happen is you lose a tenner.

That would be a tenner down the drain unfortunately. Though a sale of a 2nd hand car from a dealer to a normal buyer is covered under the 1980 thing a 2nd hand car would be expected to have some wear and tear. Is it unexpected for a clutch / flywheel on a modern diesel to fail at 95K miles ? Answer is nope. Can the dealer be expected to foresee this ? Answer is nope again. I had a new Mondeo in 2005 and the DMF went without any warning. Went into a shop it was perfect, came out and started it and it was knocking like a Jehovah.

Do send a letter if you want and pursue it to the small claims court but don't espect to get the dealer to look after you. Taking into account the age and mileage the car was probably of merchantable quality when sold.

I reckon a warranty is not legally required, the car is bought from a dealer should be of merchantable quality though. The three month engine and box is just a par for the course p1ss poor thing that folks expect as a minimum and it covers f all but the engine and box.

Padraig Mor

I'd do it anyway. If he's down a tenner, it's only a fraction of the repair cost. TBH this 1 month warranty bull**** suggests to me that the dealer knew bloody well that there was problems with the car.

No harm at all in doing it as you say
If I was the dealer I'd cover the parts anyway to be honest. Easy for me to say it though not being the dealer.

BostonB

Padraig Mor wrote: »

What's with all the posters telling the OP that it's basically tough? He clearly has a case here! The law stipulates that goods must be of merchantable quality - according to the Consumer Agency this means roadworthy in the case of cars and further defines it as "reasonable, acceptable quality given what was said about them and taking into account the age and history of the vehicle".

Look at the car in this case. It's not a junker the OP bought for a couple of ton from Dodgy Dave - it's a 2005 car with 95k miles costing 5 grand! Sure, 95k is a good few miles, but it's hardly astronomical. For the clutch to go after 3 weeks, it was clearly 'on the way out' when sold. While the law seems not to define a minimum warranty, one month is complete bollocks and contravenes the OP's rights. TBH the OP should have walked out of the garage at that point - this is obviously not a professional outfit.

.....

Its impossible for you to be so definate about the facts when you don't know what they are.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055823592
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055815787

I could be wrong, but it seems like hes bought a car with more than one problem, didn't get a mechanic to check it out, and didn't check out the details of the warranty. Hes been driving it for 3 weeks, I'm not saying he did, but he could have burnt out the clutch himself. Or that it was slipping when he bought it. We have no way of knowing.

That said I agree hes got nothing to lose in going to the small courts if the dealer turns his back on it.

Absurdum

interesting read about warranties

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2010/0106/1224261723440.html

Richard tea

BostonB wrote: »

Its impossible for you to be so definate about the facts when you don't know what they are.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055823592
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055815787

I could be wrong, but it seems like hes bought a car with more than one problem, didn't get a mechanic to check it out, and didn't check out the details of the warranty. Hes been driving it for 3 weeks, I'm not saying he did, but he could have burnt out the clutch himself. Or that it was slipping when he bought it. We have no way of knowing.

That said I agree hes got nothing to lose in going to the small courts if the dealer turns his back on it.

I did buy the car knowing about a few problems. I knew the timing belt and brake pads had to be done. I also knew that there was a problem with a false error telling me that the indicators and stop lamp was not working ( but they are ).

I didnt cop that the cap covering the handle on the passenger door was missing.

I only copped that the engine was slightly smokey because when I parked up early one morning beside a black car I could notice the slight smoke coming from beneath the bonnet.

The clutch wasn't slipping or screeching when I bought it. And I did indeed have a mechanic with me, who spent a good 25 mins looking over the car.

Thanks for the info Padraig Mor. Ill might just write that letter.

Henry Ford III

Absurdum wrote: »

interesting read about warranties

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2010/0106/1224261723440.html

Interesting ok, but not of any great relevance to any other cases. A precedent doesn't dictate a course of action to a Judge.

Hagar

Isn't precendent one of the cornerstones of the Irish legal system?

Henry Ford III

69 wrote: »

Isn't precendent one of the cornerstones of the Irish legal system?

It's merely a precedent. No obligation to follow it in any later case.

BostonB

Richard tea wrote: »

...The clutch wasn't slipping or screeching when I bought it. And I did indeed have a mechanic with me, who spent a good 25 mins looking over the car....

Think about what you've just said. There was no problem with the clutch when you bought it, based on your own, and your mechanics check. Can't see how its the dealers problem if its not in the warranty. But I can appreciate you feel you should get some sore of goodwill guesture regardless. If you google for it, theres a few people complaining about early clutch failures on the 407 and other Peugeots.

Theta

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I've seen this on here before. I think it's perhaps an urban myth. Many cars are still sold "as seen".

Can you substantiate?

There was a court ruling recently that said the as seen condtion no longer applis and what a salesman tells you is legally binding. So if he says I replaced the clutch and sold you the car as seen he is liable for it!

Henry Ford III

Theta wrote: »

There was a court ruling recently that said the as seen condtion no longer applis and what a salesman tells you is legally binding. So if he says I replaced the clutch and sold you the car as seen he is liable for it!

Where?

If it's "sold as seen" they can tell you the earth is flat.

zilog_jones

Theta wrote: »

There was a court ruling recently that said the as seen condtion no longer applis and what a salesman tells you is legally binding. So if he says I replaced the clutch and sold you the car as seen he is liable for it!

Surely if what a salesman tells you is legally binding, if he says it's "sold as seen" then that is legally binding too, i.e. he does not guarantee it is free of faults.

This isn't exactly a case of the car being completely unroadworthy and a danger to the public and users of the vehicle. That is not acceptable regardless of the claimed "sold as seen"-ness unless there is an agreement on sale that it is not roadworthy.

BostonB

You can't see a clutch so the only way you'd know there is a problem was if you could feel it slip, or there was a noise. Or that someone had told you there was a problem with it. I don't think we were told that was the case here. I don't see how the dealer would know.

Also unfortunately its not impossible that something can fail on a car just after you buy it. I sold a car to my mechanic, a car he had serviced for me for 3 yrs previously. A week later the head went on it. Thats just bad luck. Likewise on some cars, you can more common failures due to a design of the car. One car I had, needed the alternator replaced twice in 3 yrs and the service history indicated it had been replaced at least once before that too. I've never had one fail on any other car. Ditto suspension on some cars.

Theta

zilog_jones wrote: »

Surely if what a salesman tells you is legally binding, if he says it's "sold as seen" then that is legally binding too, i.e. he does not guarantee it is free of faults.

This isn't exactly a case of the car being completely unroadworthy and a danger to the public and users of the vehicle. That is not acceptable regardless of the claimed "sold as seen"-ness unless there is an agreement on sale that it is not roadworthy.

No it had to do with a saleman saying work had been done to a car when in fact it hadn't (Timing belt if i remember correctly) and when legal action was brought against him his defense was that he sold the car as is and whatever he said about the car didnt matter.

The judge ruled that whatever a salesman said is binding so if he says I changed this or that when in fact he hasnt he can longer hide behind the rule of it was sold as seen!

Zubeneschamali

Richard tea wrote: »

I only copped that the engine was slightly smokey because when I parked up early one morning beside a black car I could notice the slight smoke coming from beneath the bonnet.

Say what?

Smoke from under the bonnet?

A smokey engine generally puts the smoke out through the exhaust, not the bonnet. That could be your clutch burning, right there.

The Pontiac

My own gut feeling is the dealer knew the clutch was going to go, hence him giving only a one month warranty. Three months always seems to be the minimum.

I'd give the Citizens Advice Bureau a ring on 1890 777 121 (Monday to Friday, 9am to 9pm).

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

A smokey engine generally puts the smoke out through the exhaust, not the bonnet. That could be your clutch burning, right there.

As its a diesel there would be a good chance the little hoses that are on the cylinders are seeping a bit of diesel, they are a common fail on loads and loads of diesel engines as the mileage racks up. Simple and cheap to fix too. I would be extremely surprised if it was off the clutch.

BostonB

RoverJames wrote: »

As its a diesel there would be a good chance the little hoses that are on the cylinders are seeping a bit of diesel, they are a common fail on loads and loads of diesel engines as the mileage racks up. Simple and cheap to fix too. I would be extremely surprised if it was off the clutch.

Also Clutch smells very different, quite distinctive. I seem to remember.

<Ollie> wrote: »

My own gut feeling is the dealer knew the clutch was going to go, ....

How would he know that? Considering the OP and his mechanic couldn't tell.

zilog_jones

Theta wrote: »

No it had to do with a saleman saying work had been done to a car when in fact it hadn't (Timing belt if i remember correctly) and when legal action was brought against him his defense was that he sold the car as is and whatever he said about the car didnt matter.

The judge ruled that whatever a salesman said is binding so if he says I changed this or that when in fact he hasnt he can longer hide behind the rule of it was sold as seen!

Well that's just blatant dishonesty, I don't see how that is relevant to this case. It's not like the seller claimed the clutch was new. If I was buying a car and they claimed important work was done like the timing belt, I'd get it in writing.

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

Also Clutch smells very different, quite distinctive. I seem to remember.

Yep, the stink from a smoking clutch would be fairly pungent.

Richard tea

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Say what?

Smoke from under the bonnet?

A smokey engine generally puts the smoke out through the exhaust, not the bonnet. That could be your clutch burning, right there.

A new seal for the injector sorted that