France -v- Spain 8pm

deisedude

redout wrote: »

Henry is being booed by the crowd at the Stade de France!!!!!!!!!

wtf is that about ?

Well i have had a Frenchman come up to me and apologise on behalf of the French nation because they were ashamed at the way they had won the game.

redout

Stevecw wrote: »

I suppose you have a point there. They are doing well at club level, but i just don't think the 2 of them are top class. That is only fear I have for Spain, I reckon they might be found out by top strikers in the summer. Agreed that keeper is quality, no worries there.
I reckon Spain will win the WC, but only area i have doubts about is centre backs...hope they prove me wrong.

Like, seriously brother ?

Pique and Puyol are rocks tbh.

Something like 17 games as a CB pairing this season without conceding a single goal. Thats what was mentioned on revista a couple of weeks back. More worried about the fullbacks tbh. That is Spain's weakest area in my opinion.

eZe^

Stevecw wrote: »

I suppose you have a point there. They are doing well at club level, but i just don't think the 2 of them are top class. That is only fear I have for Spain, I reckon they might be found out by top strikers in the summer. Agreed that keeper is quality, no worries there.
I reckon Spain will win the WC, but only area i have doubts about is centre backs...hope they prove me wrong.

They had a worse defensive unit at the euro's and still only managed to conceding 3 goals in the group stages and none in the knock outs. Puyol this season has arguably been the best CB in the world. Spain won't lose the WC because of their CB's, they'll lose the WC because on the day they are beaten by a better team.

IvySlayer

Anelka off, Cissé on.

redout

eZe^ wrote: »

they'll lose the WC because on the day they are beaten by a better team.

Is there one around at the moment ?

eZe^

It's amazing to see such a stale France side really. I remember the days of being absolutely terrified when Spain played them. I mean, it's a farcry from the days of Lizarazu, Zidane, Deschamps, Trezegoal. It's also fascinating to see how much Spain have progressed from the days of Raul, Hierro, and Luis Enrique. The personal in both teams are similar, but the the mentality and cohesiveness as unit couldn't be more different, they look a whole new beast.

redout wrote: »

Is there one around at the moment ?

Don't think so, but in a one off game it's an even playing field between the likes of Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, and England.

IvySlayer

Unlucky by Malouda, off the post.

Peyton Manning

Excuse the ignorance, but is Pique definitely first choice partner for Puyol rather than Albiol?

mayordenis

Archimedez wrote: »

Excuse the ignorance, but is Pique definitely Puyols first choice partner for Spain rather than Albiol?

yup at the moment anyway

eZe^

Archimedez wrote: »

Excuse the ignorance, but is Pique definitely first choice partner for Puyol rather than Albiol?

Mhmmmmm, Del Bosque is embracing the idea that club level partnerships can really ease the transition into international football. That's why you see Ramos partnered with Arbeloa, Pique with Puyol, Busquets with Xavi/ Iniesta, etc.

Peyton Manning

Aye - I havent followed Spain's line-ups at all really since the Euros. Is Fabregas still not in the first choice 11? Amazing really considering how he's rated over here, although then there are questions about his performances at the highest level. Then there's the midfield competition for Spain I guess, which is disgustingly talented.

redout

Archimedez wrote: »

Excuse the ignorance, but is Pique definitely first choice partner for Puyol rather than Albiol?

eZe^ wrote: »

Mhmmmmm, Del Bosque is embracing the idea that club level partnerships can really ease the transition into international football. That's why you see Ramos partnered with Arbeloa, Pique with Puyol, Busquets with Xavi/ Iniesta, etc.

this ^

and he is the better player anyway as far as I am concerned.

eZe^

Archimedez wrote: »

Is Fabregas still not in the first choice 11? Amazing really considering how he's rated over here, although then there are questions about his performances at the highest level. Then there's the midfield competition for Spain I guess, which is disgustingly talented.

It's not because he isn't rated, I think it comes down again more to the fact that Del Bosque is favouring partnerships that have been established and are strong at club level, so to him it makes more sense to play Xavi/ Iniesta together and have Fabregas as an impact sub. (Although Fab gets his fair share of appearances)

Smegball

The reason for Spains excellent defensive record isn't only down to the quality of the actual defenders, you could make a viable case for stating there is better defenders in world football, especially with Pique.

The reason their defence is so solid is simply down to ball retention, Spain rarely lose the ball, and when they do their midfielders will drop back and press like any normal team. However the periods of time Spain can retain the ball in midfield stringing passes reduces the actual number of potential attacks they will encounter.

I personally will love to see a clash with the counter attacking Brazil side, that would be an incredible spectacle imo.

IvySlayer

Smegball wrote: »

The reason for Spains excellent defensive record isn't only down to the quality of the actual defenders, you could make a viable case for stating there is better defenders in world football, especially with Pique.

The reason their defence is so solid is simply down to ball retention, Spain rarely lose the ball, and when they do their midfielders will drop back and press like any normal team. However the periods of time Spain can retain the ball in midfield stringing passes reduces the actual number of potential attacks they will encounter.

I personally will love to see a clash with the counter attacking Brazil side, that would be an incredible spectacle imo.

Pique is used to a team that retains the ball very well. How are Spain at defending free kicks/corners?

Stevecw

redout wrote: »

Like, seriously brother ?

Pique and Puyol are rocks tbh.

Something like 17 games as a CB pairing this season without conceding a single goal. Thats what was mentioned on revista a couple of weeks back. More worried about the fullbacks tbh. That is Spain's weakest area in my opinion.

Yes i am serious "brother"

Those 2 can never be called rocks!!
Still not convinced at all about Pique, and Puyol while usually very good does have his dodgy moments too. I just reckon they might get found out in the summer, if I'm wrong then great as i hope Spain do win the WC.

redout

Stevecw wrote: »

Yes i am serious "brother"

Those 2 can never be called rocks!!
Still not convinced at all about Pique, and Puyol while usually very good does have his dodgy moments too. I just reckon they might get found out in the summer, if I'm wrong then great as i hope Spain do win the WC.

Considering your perception of the guy I would be amazed if you actually watched him week in, week out.

rossie1977

Archimedez wrote: »

Aye - I havent followed Spain's line-ups at all really since the Euros. Is Fabregas still not in the first choice 11? Amazing really considering how he's rated over here, although then there are questions about his performances at the highest level. Then there's the midfield competition for Spain I guess, which is disgustingly talented.

the quality of spains squad is incredible, reina arguably the best goalie in england last 3-4 seasons is only backup too

xavi, iniesta and alonso in midfield, wow

Frisbee

Archimedez wrote: »

Aye - I havent followed Spain's line-ups at all really since the Euros. Is Fabregas still not in the first choice 11? Amazing really considering how he's rated over here, although then there are questions about his performances at the highest level. Then there's the midfield competition for Spain I guess, which is disgustingly talented.

I like jerking it thinking about Cesc as much as the next Arsenal fan but there's no way he should be in the first choice starting XI.

Breaking up the Xavi/Iniesta partnership for anything other than an injury should be considered a crime against the state and the manager summarily executed.

JPA

eZe^ wrote: »

Don't think so, but in a one off game it's an even playing field between the likes of Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, and England.

I don't know about that. I don't think England or Germany could cope with Spain. (England have shown that in the past, although they were friendlies).

If England (or Germany, although I doubt they have serious ambitions), want to win the the WC they better hope Brazil, Argentina or someone else do them a a favour against Spain.

Peyton Manning

JPA wrote: »

I don't know about that. I don't think England or Germany could cope with Spain. (England have shown that in the past, although they were friendlies).

If England (or Germany, although I doubt they have serious ambitions), want to win the the WC they better hope Brazil, Argentina or someone else do them a a favour against Spain.

Thing is though, as impressive as they have been under Capello, they've struggled in the face of any team who can move the ball around competently and who like to attack. Brazil played them off the park recently, Spain have had their way with them, and they were lucky to snatch a draw against Holland too. They'd be my 4th favourite to win the tournament after the above mentioned teams.

redout

Archimedez wrote: »

Thing is though, as impressive as they have been under Capello, they've struggled in the face of any team who can move the ball around competently and who like to attack. Brazil played them off the park recently, Spain have had their way with them, and they were lucky to snatch a draw against Holland too. They'd be my 4th favourite to win the tournament after the above mentioned teams.

I dont see anyone as a serious threat to Spain.

The gulf in class is ridiculous really. Bigger than any in recent memory for me. This is without doubt the greatest, most gifted Spanish side ever assembled.

Brazil perhaps are closest but not even convinced of that as they are very suspect at the back but also their attacking prowess just isnt comparable to previous Brazilian sides.

I think England, Portugal, Argentina, France, Italy, Germany and Holland are miles off the pace in fairness so much so that Spain could take any of these without getting out of second gear.

I think that it will require either a bad day at the office or dodgy officiating for them to get knocked out. There is just not a team capable of going toe to toe with them if they play their game in my opinion.

JPA

redout wrote: »

I dont see anyone as a serious threat to Spain.

The gulf in class is ridiculous really. Bigger than any in recent memory for me. This is without doubt the greatest, most gifted Spanish side ever assembled.

Brazil perhaps are closest but not even convinced of that as they are very suspect at the back but also their attacking prowess just isnt comparable to previous Brazilian sides.

I think England, Portugal, Argentina, France, Italy, Germany and Holland are miles off the pace in fairness so much so that Spain could take any of these without getting out of second gear.

I think that it will require either a bad day at the office or dodgy officiating for them to get knocked out. There is just not a team capable of going toe to toe with them if they play their game in my opinion.

In theory I agree, but things never work out as straight forward as that in tournaments.

Peyton Manning

Brazil arent really suspect at the back anymore though. It may have been true in the past, but they only conceded 11 goals in 18 games in their qualifying group for the WC. And if you look at the "big teams" they've played with Dunga in charge, that is Argentina (3 times), Italy (2 times), England (2 times), Portugal (2 times), and Sweden, they've only conceded 6 goals (and scored 23). They're a very different machine under Dunga. They've abandoned the tricks and adopted a more tidy, efficient approach. Spain vs Brazil is the final everyone wants, and there's nothing to choose between them imo.

kryogen

Brazil now have a nice mix of Brazilian flair and German efficiency!

Dunga has come under fire in the past for his not all out attack tactics back in Brazil but his results have exonerated him so far

He was always going to have this style considering the typoe of player he was i guess

Remember the 94 team he captained? not exactly a goal machine team in that World Cup but they made it there

Warper

Spain are undoubtably an excellent side but there is a lot of history against them. They are going in as the outright favs and the pressure will be on for them to succeed. Spain have never even got to a World Cup final before and I think just made the semi's once. They got a monkey off their back by winning the Euro's but there are still of questions regarding their temperament. Just look at last year's Confed Cup and see how easily they were knocked out by the USA. If Xavi and Iniesta play poorly they can be got at.

Their defense is very strong, particularly Pique, Puyol and Casillas. I have never seen Puyol play better than this season and Pique will be the heart of Spain's defense for the next 10 years. Casillas is Casillas. They have an excellent pool of players to call on as well. Brazil's defense is excellent also with Lucio, Maicon, Cesar the top dogs. All 3 know each other inside out playing for Inter Milan and they have one of the meanest defenses int he competition, comparable to Spain.

Brazil are the team to beat imo. They have a psychological edge over everyone with their history and tradition. Dunga has them playing a relatively counter-attacking game but their results speak for themselves. They won the Copa America, Confed Cup and the SA qualifying group. They have beaten Argentina in Argentina and although the Confed Cup is a bit mickey-mouse the way they came back from 2-0 down at half-time against the US was the most impressive thing of all. It showed the belief they have in themselves - I doubt Spain would have been able to do that.

All in all I think Brazil are the team to beat. They know how to get themselves out of a hole and can change gears. I can see Spain having an off-day somewhere along the line and they, like every Spain team in the past will bow out around the 1/4's.

SlickRic

i just want to acknowledge the phenomenon that is David Villa.

with all the hullabaloo over Rooney, Drogba, Torres, Ibra, etc, i believe this man is better than them all.

loyal too.

smashing player, and took his goal with consumate calm last night.

Mr Alan

Torres international stats is kinda skewed by the very young age he started playing for spain and expectation that was on his shoulders when he came in.

eZe^

Mr Alan wrote: »

Torres international stats is kinda skewed by the very young age he started playing for spain and expectation that was on his shoulders when he came in.

Compare their past 20 appearances and I would still guarantee Villa's international record trumps Torres'. By the way, I'm not trying to belittle Torres' here, it's just I literally don't think I can't remember an international striker scoring so consistently for his country over a 2 year period.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

Torres international stats is kinda skewed by the very young age he started playing for spain and expectation that was on his shoulders when he came in.

don't worry Al, i still love him anyway.

Mr Alan

eZe^ wrote: »

Compare their past 20 appearances and I would still guarantee Villa's international record trumps Torres'. By the way, I'm not trying to belittle Torres' here, it's just I literally don't think I can't remember an international striker scoring so consistently for his country over a 2 year period.

Oh i'm sure it would particularly wit a couple of hat-tricks and stuff he's picked up, that's not wat i was gettin at, i'm more commenting on a post someone made last night that i didn't bother writing back to at the0time !i think Torres has more to his all round game than people give him credit for

eZe^

Torres is one of the most complete strikers in the world, if not the most complete (bar Bojan Krkic obviously ). Don't think many can argue with that.

Mr Alan

wats the story wit Bojan, he ever gonna make it properly?

rossie1977

redout wrote: »

I dont see anyone as a serious threat to Spain.

The gulf in class is ridiculous really. Bigger than any in recent memory for me. This is without doubt the greatest, most gifted Spanish side ever assembled.

history is not on spains side, no team from europe has ever won it outside of europe and some mighty fine teams have tried down the years

if it comes to it, brazil will over-power spain with their size and strength. these boys have the toughness of stoke or bolton but some really gifted footballers to match spain if it comes down to that

redout

Archimedez wrote: »

Brazil arent really suspect at the back anymore though. It may have been true in the past, but they only conceded 11 goals in 18 games in their qualifying group for the WC. And if you look at the "big teams" they've played with Dunga in charge, that is Argentina (3 times), Italy (2 times), England (2 times), Portugal (2 times), and Sweden, they've only conceded 6 goals (and scored 23). They're a very different machine under Dunga. They've abandoned the tricks and adopted a more tidy, efficient approach. Spain vs Brazil is the final everyone wants, and there's nothing to choose between them imo.

I couldnt agree with that. I think people seem to forget or either do not know that Brazil done rather poorly in qualifying sat down around 4th/5th for a long period and didnt improve until the latter stages. Both Paraguay and Chile won more qualification games than Brazil. Brazil drew nearly half of there 18 qualification games. Every game you mentioned above has been nothing more than a friendly bar Argentina. If you want to use friendlies as an example sure then I could point out Ireland gave that Brazilian defence problems and had them under pressure with no world class players whatsoever.

Also to say there is nothing between Spain and Brazil is well wide of the mark. Brazil have at best and average midfield - Spain in comparison have the greatest one on the planet. Up front again Spain trump them to be perfectly honest. At the back Spain have a better keeper and a stronger CB pairing. The only area in defence were Brazil are better is at fullback and even then I would argue it is only on the right handside. As a unit Spain appear to be a far more solid unit defensively and a more lethal unit in attack.

rossie1977

brazils defence and goalie are solid

julio cesar, luisao, alves, maicon and lucio, i don't foresee any problems there

people are talking about torres and villa but Luis Fabiano has 17 international goals since the summer of 2008 and we saw the other night that robinho is a completely different player in the yellow and blue

Mr Alan

brazil are strong up front no doubt, but they aren't near the quality spain have.

redout

rossie1977 wrote: »

brazils defence and goalie are solid

julio cesar, luisao, alves, maicon and lucio, i don't foresee any problems there

people are talking about torres and villa but Luis Fabiano has 17 international goals since the summer of 2008 and we saw the other night that robinho is a completely different player in the yellow and blue

Alves is not a starting player for Brazil.

He is backup to Maicon.

Warper

Brazil have something that Spain havn't got and that is pedigree. The World Cup is a bigger beast than the Euro's and Spain have yet to show they have the bottle to win it. I still have my reservations about their mental toughness and how they respond to going behind in a "big game".

Dont be at yourself

Also worth noting that the World Cup has often been won by teams who underperformed in the run-up to the tournament. It's very difficult to sustain form over such a long period of time, and Spain might just have peaked too soon.

flahavaj

Having thought about this a lot, my traditional 50 quid bet is going on Brazil to win it.

Warper

Plus the fact, lately Brazil only win it every second tournament

1994 - Brazil
1998 - France
2002 - Brazil
2006 - Italy
2010 - Brazil

Its obvious - cant wait

redout

Warper wrote: »

Brazil have something that Spain havn't got and that is pedigree. The World Cup is a bigger beast than the Euro's and Spain have yet to show they have the bottle to win it. I still have my reservations about their mental toughness and how they respond to going behind in a "big game".

Pedigree ?

That Brazil squad that played Ireland which was near full strength had only 3 players who won a World Cup. Kleberson, Gilberto Silva and Lucio. Kaka barely featured in 2002 and Ronaldinho aint even in the squad.

Compared to Spain's Squad which has nearly all won either the European championship and/or Champions league I think your pedigree claim falls short tbh. If anything Spain have the better current pedigree side.

Dont be at yourself

Psychological though, isn't it? Teams like Germany and Brazil will always feature in the latter stages of the World Cup. They'll have the confidence of their history behind them, and teams will be reluctant to play against them.

Spain, on the other hand, have a history of crumbling spectacularly under pressure. Being favourites won't suit them.

redout

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Psychological though, isn't it? Teams like Germany and Brazil will always feature in the latter stages of the World Cup. They'll have the confidence of their history behind them, and teams will be reluctant to play against them.

Spain, on the other hand, have a history of crumbling spectacularly under pressure. Being favourites won't suit them.

I would now replace had with have tbh considering they have broken that hoodoo.

We will have to wait and see I suppose.

Del Bosque has been playing down the teams chances himself by saying that they have never won a world so cant be considered favourites.

In a way he is right but that still doesnt stop the bookies all making Spain tournament favourites.

As regards Brazil I believe they had a stronger squad in 2006 than they do currently.

Warper

redout wrote: »

I would now replace had with have tbh considering they have broken that hoodoo.

We will have to wait and see I suppose.

Del Bosque has been playing down the teams chances himself by saying that they have never won a world so cant be considered favourites.

In a way he is right but that still doesnt stop the bookies all making Spain tournament favourites.

As regards Brazil I believe they had a stronger squad in 2006 than they do currently.

When I said pedigree, I mean Brazil have the tradition and history of winning World Cups, something Spain are seriously lacking - their World Cup history is woeful. The best they have done is a fourth place way back in 1950 and since then have made 3 quarter-finals. All the stats are against Spain - no European team have ever won outside Europe.

Brazil had better individuals in 2006 than they do now - they do not have the better team. That is why Dunga was put in charge - he has formed team-spirit and a hard work ethos. Now everyone works for the team - even Robinho and Adriano close down players when they lose the ball. Brazil are a better side in 2010 than they were in 2006. There is no place for the likes of Ronaldinho or Diego in Dunga's squad as they dont work hard enough when they lose the ball. Brazil have an excellent hungry squad and each player plays for the team - they still have Pato and Fabiano to come back who were unavailable the other night and anyone can see how happy Robinho is when he plays for Brazil. Spain are perennial "bottlers" and until they win the WC, that tag is justifiable.

redout

Warper wrote: »

When I said pedigree, I mean Brazil have the tradition and history of winning World Cups, something Spain are seriously lacking - their World Cup history is woeful. The best they have done is a fourth place way back in 1950 and since then have made 3 quarter-finals. All the stats are against Spain - no European team have ever won outside Europe.

Brazil had better individuals in 2006 than they do now - they do not have the better team. That is why Dunga was put in charge - he has formed team-spirit and a hard work ethos. Now everyone works for the team - even Robinho and Adriano close down players when they lose the ball. Brazil are a better side in 2010 than they were in 2006. There is no place for the likes of Ronaldinho or Diego in Dunga's squad as they dont work hard enough when they lose the ball. Brazil have an excellent hungry squad and each player plays for the team - they still have Pato and Fabiano to come back who were unavailable the other night and anyone can see how happy Robinho is when he plays for Brazil. Spain are perennial "bottlers" and until they win the WC, that tag is justifiable.

So the team who just won the European Championship for the second time are still "perennial" underachievers ? Is that not the exact same term that has dogged the England team for over 40 years yet they won a world cup

flahavaj

redout wrote: »

So the team who just won the European Championship for the second time are still "perennial" underachievers ? Is that not the exact same term that has dogged the England team for over 40 years yet they won a world cup

I don't think the added pressure that winning Euro 2008 and going into the World Cup as favourites will bring does the Spanish any favours at all to be honest. I think it may get a little too much for them.

The Brazilians on the other hand are born to play in and challenge for the World Cup, yes there is massive expectation but I think they embrace and relish it rather that see it as a burden.

redout

flahavaj wrote: »

I don't think the added pressure that winning Euro 2008 and going into the World Cup as favourites will bring does the Spanish any favours at all to be honest. I think it may get a little too much for them.

The Brazilians on the other hand are born to play in and challenge for the World Cup, yes there is massive expectation but I think they embrace and relish it rather that see it as a burden.

Well if that is what you think then fair enough but I cant say I agree with you.

Headshot

Ill go for England to win the WC