*Limerick GAA news/discussion thread*

paddy no 11

mickmackey1 wrote: »

But didn't we finish very strong against Tipp all the same?

We did, but other people on here said GOM gassed on 55 that day also, it mightnt be the fact that not every player is struggling just a few. Also we got a goal through dowling and tipp had no midfield versus cork who have 2 serious athletes. Its speculation on my behalf, ive nothing to back it up.

glasagusban

paddy no 11 wrote: »

We did, but other people on here said GOM gassed on 55 that day also, it mightnt be the fact that not every player is struggling just a few. Also we got a goal through dowling and tipp had no midfield versus cork who have 2 serious athletes. Its speculation on my behalf, ive nothing to back it up.

Might be more the pressure from Dodge and Hannon being completely absent at half forward and our wing backs being completely dominated started to show as the second half wore on. The mids ran themselves into the ground also and had a superior midfield pairing to contend with too. Earlier use of the bench is necessary.

Fireball07

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Quaid - one puck out on the full not involved really, no chance on 2 goals

Condon - destroyed by cadogan, was poor for sull's goal two, was poor v tipp i thought, wont be dropped but needs to improve

Richie - solid

Hickey - was excellent but for turnover

POB - conceded scores to lehane and not a genuine half back, cant argue if is dropped

Wayne mac - done well in general, distribution good scored a great point, though cooper did well too

GOM - destroyed, will be on sideline next day, just looks a total loss of form at the wrong time

Jimbob - very good but should have been replaced on 55 mins

Browne - excellent but spoiled his performance with 2 turnovers

Hannon - wonder score and then went south, hard to know to drop him or not

Dodgy - pretty good 2 scores and a free won in 5 mins, battled well one bad wide, not a natural forward though

Downes - got on a share of ball but 3 wides and a block down shot was a poor return, won a free immediately when moved to CF, still think thats where he belongs

Mulcahy - our top performer, was excellent, 2 games in a row now

Dowling - was very good the 3 frees aside, leave him inside, footwork practice for next 2 weeks

Breen - very good, one bad wide and one head down gallop into traffic and a turnover (his usual) cant do that at this level - definitely keeps his place

Seanie tobin - totally bypassed, you'd hardly know he was on sadly

Walsh - cork were on top when he came, done ok, gave away one free

King and the other fella not on long enough.

Management - had the team well prepared and got a great performance but didnt react to the blatantly obvious, maybe they were hamstrung by injuries to ryan and dempsey but they need to get the finger out on match day or we wont be involved much longer.

Excellent post, I would agree with all that bar 2 small things.

First, I thought Condon was excellent against Tipp. Obviously very poor against Cork, but maybe he needed more protection from the system. It's not like it was a surprise... all the Cork lads were saying about how much pace Cadogan had. I assumed we'd have a plan to deal with it, if you drop a half-back deep to Condon, all he has to do is make sure the ball doesn't go into his hand. Condon was beaten to a lot of ball and turned too easily. But when isolated, he had no chance against the pace. Wouldn't blame him for it all tbh.

And I'd prefer to see Downes at centre-forward than corner-forward, although he is a real threat inside.

Rightwing wrote: »

1 thing we don't have is strength in depth.

This is a bit of a problem... I think we have plenty of decent backs and midfielders, but we lack fowards for sure. We don't really have a centre-back replacement either, but I would have faith in Walsh, Dempsey, Carmody, King, Tom Ryan, Morrissey all coming into that team.

But up front... we've got Conor Allis, who has a decent engine and is a good player but can disappear from games.

Seanie Tobin... who is a very talented player, but a bit small, and I'm not sure he can play in the same forward line as Mulcahy, certainly not the way they were playing before. And Mul is clearly the more talented of the two.

Then you've got Moran who's just out of retirement, no real pace anymore.

Outside of that... I wouldn't have faith in Tommy Quaid, Tommy O'Brien, John Fitzgibbon, Mikey Ryan coming into that forward line, I'm just not sure they're up to intercounty standard at all. All have made a serious impact at club level but at intercounty you have to be able to win your own ball, or have that bit extra- the spark to get away from a man, an ability to knock over scores from anywhere, supreme intelligence on the ball, a real knack for getting goals, do any of those have that? I'm not so sure...

Tom Ryan as a forward, I can see why they're trying it, but he's more comfortable elsewhere. Maybe Mike Fitz is the answer, a very good player if we can get him fit and in the team... bit disappointed that Kevin O'Brien wasn't given a chance, he was by far the most impressive our U-21 forwards and has always been a very skilful player.

But otherwise, we're waiting for the likes of Cian Lynch, Ronan Lynch, Barry Nash, maybe Dean Coleman and Dave Dempsey to step up from U-21s. Or put someone like Gavin in attack, as he's been playing there at club level... but if his form isn't right in the backline, then I wouldn't be trying that now.


I think Hannon needs a spell on the bench, he's clearly not right at the moment and hasn't been for a while. But even playing poorly, I'm not sure any of his replacements would do better. Allis is the best of them, but even then... not convinced.

Vanolder wrote: »

Agreed... All doesn't seem right, the conditioning is all wrong.

I don't know about conditioning, a lot of people talking about Gavin. He's never been the most powerful, I can't tell if he's lost weight or not... maybe that is the problem. I don't know tbh, but he's clearly off-form.


As for the overall athleticism of the team, I certainly wouldn't be faulting the likes of Jim-Bob, Browne & Hickey, huge engines. King as well, although he didn't get to show it.

I do think the likes of Hannon & Dowling could be fitter, Dodge's age probably plays a part and none of our starting backline bar Hickey have top-end pace. Not necessarily a problem, but maybe if we introduced someone like King earlier, it would make an impact.

I do remember Wayne Mac absolutely flattening Bonner Maher, so I'm not sure the argument against him is right.


It's hard for me to judge, I do think that if our conditioning is off, it's probably unlikely that it will be rectified in the next 2 weeks, but I suppose some work couldn't hurt.

zombieHanalei

I had heard in the run up to this game that the masterplan was to minimise Horgan's tally by keeping the free count as low as possible and to throw David Breen into the half forward line to provide an aerial threat we sorely lacked v Tipp. And that appeared to work very well for a while, didn't concede a free until the 22nd minute and Breen was a nuisance in the opening quarter.

Some big decisions to be made the next day, I don't wish to single out individuals but there are a few players who probably need to be dropped the next day out.

Something wasn't quite right on the defence, they didn't seem to perform as a unit as we are used to, Ryan and Browne supported very well as usual but Cork seemed to find gaping holes to exploit in our defence. And our forward 6 despite the undoubted individual talents we have can be very static. They'll work hard when not in possession but as an offensive unit in possession we just don't seem that threatening.

There isn't too much wrong with the team, they had a small bit of an off day in some respects, better team won on the day. Cork like last year will be serious All-Ireland contenders, unlike us they have added a few players to what already was a strong team. If you think about it, we have basically had the same team for 4 years now, over that time frame we haven't really added to the first team in a meaningful way since Dowling was brought on board in 2012. If we keep that up we can expect a fairly rapid decline in 2/3 years time.

I'm not too worried about our prospects this year, we certainly have a very good chance of making the semi final v Kilkenny and provided the physical conditioning and team selections are in good order by then it certainly is not beyond this team to go all the way; I'd personally be very surprised if we pulled it off but from what I've heard the players have bought into TJ and they have a good working relationship.

I really don't want to single out individual players; but I am very concerned about Declan Hannon- probably the most naturally talented hurler we have in the county, I'll never forget the first time I saw him in the 2008 U-16 county final, his free taking was impeccable, and his all round play was excellent. I know it was "only" underage but I've never seen a player control a game like that. Was thrown straight into the Adare seniors the following year and over the next 2/3 years he was an absolute joy to watch for Adare, Ard Scoil Ris and county underage teams. Played with an air of freedom and appeared to really enjoy himself.

Last few years he looks burdened by it almost, brilliant in flashes but the game can pass him by an awful lot, he doesn't play with that freedom anymore, it's as though he lacks self-belief or something because I have absolutely no doubt about his hurling ability; he is one of the best I have ever seen. There's some kind of psychological issue there, I often wonder did it wear him out a few years ago when he was playing for about 6 different teams at the one time, burnout perhaps. (Both club and county badly messed him about in 2012 when they kept rushing him back too soon from a groin injury that consequently took much longer to properly heal) I don't really care about how it effects his club or county, I just hope for his own sake this sorts itself out, I don't know him as such but I've met him a few times, a really nice humble young man.

LMK

Overall really happy with the performance, whoever scored the first goal was going to win. A lot of people would have a different perspective if that happened, I'd have no qualms about starting the same fifteen the next day, I like to see TJ using 3 of the subs for at least 15 mins that's the only qualm I'd have, it will pay dividends to have 2 or 3 tried and tested waiting on the sidelines, i.e we know Stephen Walsh has the stuff maybe try him at center back for 20 mins if Wayne MC needs to put out a fire somewhere else, or keep Dodge for the final 20 and let Conor Allis in from the start.
Reading posts on here some suggest moving Hickey from corner back - I think he's too attack minded to move from the corner he need the constraints of that position to keep in check where he's been brilliant this year.

Fireball07

Again, I'd agree with everything written above by Hanalei.


Particularly in relation to Hannon. An absolute class hurler, has the highest potential of all our hurlers, but the last time he's really stood out in the Championship was back in 2011 against Dublin, when he ran riot. He's shown flashes since for sure, generally scores a point or two from play, gets fouled when he runs directly at the defence... but when you know the ability he has, it's almost always a let-down.

He had some great games for Mary I in the Fitzgibbon last year, he was one of our best performers in the 2013 league when we severely underperformed but he didn't really bring that form into the Championship. A superb performance for Adare in the county semi-final there 2 years ago now was absolutely phenomenal... he is capable of that.


There may be a psychological issue, he definitely doesn't seem as confident as someone with his talent should be. But fitness is definitely a thing too... he's had serious trouble with injuries, particularly niggly ones, and I think he looked half-lame last year. He definitely doesn't cover as much ground as other half-forwards in the modern game, he doesn't have a lot of physicality or natural aggression either... I'd be giving him a personal trainer and trying to get him as fit as possible, whether that be by resting or hitting the gym or whatever... I don't know, but someone should be trying to find out what the issue is.



He is still so young though, he's only 21, he's got his whole future ahead of him. Has been hyped up since he was around 16, big burden on his shoulders and that can weigh down certain players. Plenty of time to turn it around.


As for the aging team thing, a lot of this team are around their prime now.... if we're going to do something, it'll have to be this year or next year, before we make changes. But our forward line is still really young, and we do have about 4 years of very decent minor teams behind us, which will hopefully stand to us.

glasagusban

+1 to Hanalei and Fireball above.

I think we're ok with the age profile of the team though. After Dodge the next oldest is who? Breen, Jimbob and Wayne about 28? The next few are just about hitting late 20s, easily 4 years left at least in most of them. Many on the team have potential for a good ten years ahead of them. I expect Dempsey or King to come into the team in a year or two, Tom Ryan for sure, within two years both Lynches will be starting. Kevin O'Brien could be looked at for corner forward even this year. Morrissey, Reidy on the panel. English, David Dempsey, Nash, Coleman... I think we'll actually have a stronger 15 in two years time, something like Quaid, Dempsey, Richie, Condon, Tom Ryan, Hickey, Gavin, Paudie, Browne, Hannon, Downes, R Lynch, Mulcahy, Dowling, C Lynch.

Wishful thinking though -now is always the time.

washman3

Any news on David Reidy's injury lads.?? Is he out for the season.?

Fireball07

washman3 wrote: »

Any news on David Reidy's injury lads.?? Is he out for the season.?

I haven't heard, a broken collarbone... I'd have thought that's about 6 weeks - 2 months, depending on the severity. That would mean he'd have a chance of playing against Wexford/Waterford, but you'd wonder about his overall fitness at that stage, and he wouldn't have trained with the team for a while.


Still, he'd be a welcome addition for sure. Not sure that he's top class or anything, but at least he's an option and he did fairly well in the league.


But if Mike Fitz got over his hamstring problem, I'd love to see him involved. A real dog of a forward, but well able to get a score.

Browney7

Just a few thoughts on the game on Sunday.

Firstly it was a great occasion but it was a pity we didn't get a result in either game. I feel a 6 point defeat is a little harsh on our guys. Cork deserved their win but once the first goal went in we started to panic. We did need a goal to win the game but we still had a lot of time after the first one went in.

We started very well but we left a lot of scores out there. I feared it would be a repeat of the Clare game last year after the first two frees tailed off wide but Dowling recovered very well in fairness to the lad.

Felt Brian Gavin was harsh on us a few times in the first half and gave Cork a few handy frees to keep them in touch - The Paudie O'Brien yellow card and subsequent free wasn't even a first cousin of a free and a free to aidan walsh a few minutes after for a flick by dowling but harnedy did the same thing a few minutes later and no free - and we should have been much further ahead instead we had to fight to back to make sure we were level at half time.

Breen had a great first half. Caused awful problems for the Cork backs.

It was always going to be tough going down to Cork to win but we hit some shocking wides in the first half which we need cut out the next day. That said we hit some huge scores in the first half.

TJ needs to make substitutions quicker which we all said after the Tipp game and I think his reading of a game is quite poor. Nash was driving every puckout beyond our half back in front of our full back line and caused lots of problems for us in the second half. For each Cork puck out our Half backs should have dropped further back allowing them to attach the ball instead of back peddling and midfield should have dropped back to the half backs an half forwards to midfield and corner forward to half forward.

All's not lost and if we don't beat Waterford or Wexford we've no business at this end of the championship.

I'd agree with nearly all that has been said already here about our half back line etc. We should have made more changes sooner.

Vanolder

What's the story with other injuries? Tom Ryan, Dempsey?

citykat

Browney7 wrote: »

Felt Brian Gavin was harsh on us a few times in the first half and gave Cork a few handy frees to keep them in touch - The Paudie O'Brien yellow card and subsequent free wasn't even a first cousin of a free and a free to aidan walsh a few minutes after for a flick by dowling but harnedy did the same thing a few minutes later and no free - and we should have been much further ahead instead we had to fight to back to make sure we were level at half time.

He bottled the McDonnell decision on 45 by giving just a yellow for the slap on the head of Mulcahy. He would have walked if Mulcahy had made a meal of it. Kudos to Mulcahy.

glasagusban

citykat wrote: »

He bottled the McDonnell decision on 45 by giving just a yellow for the slap on the head of Mulcahy. He would have walked if Mulcahy had made a meal of it. Kudos to Mulcahy.

Correct. It was a straight red strike. Can't believe the Sunday game didn't bother to highlight it.

glasagusban

Vanolder wrote: »

What's the story with other injuries? Tom Ryan, Dempsey?

Dempsey fully fit again. Tom Ryan had a broken thumb as far as I know but came on in the 69th minute so is surely fit for two weeks time. Allis wasn't on the 26 named, surely that's through injury, anyone know the story there?

Fireball07

Obviously Tipp have some excellent players at that level, but does how close they got to Clare show bad management on our part.

We mightn't have players as good as Tipp or Clare, but they weren't as poor as they showed in the 2nd half either and I think we were set up the wrong way to deal with them.


We could also take a lesson from Cork, not a lot of big names, but they still got a very very convincing victory, with 14 men for a decent part of the 2nd half.


Choke Clare's space inside, have sweepers in midfield who are able to use the ball well. Target them aerially in their full-back line. We could have done all that better than we did.

francozola

First thing I would say FB07 is that many of Clare's senior players seemed fatigued given their exertions over the past two weekends. Limerick met a relatively fresh Clare side.

I fancied Tipp after watching Limerick put it up to Clare for 40 minutes. That was a very young Limerick side with a number of players underage next year, not to mind Cian Lynch who sat his Leaving that morning.

I thought Tipp played very well, used their number 13 around the middle and had Johnny Meagher sweeping and playing great ball into the forwards more often than not.
When I saw the LK team named, I thought Pat Ryan would have drifted out as a third midfielder giving that he was hurling well for Doon there.

Cork are always going to be strong at this level considering the strength of their local colleges in the Fitz and Freshers competitions.

Fireball07

francozola wrote: »

First thing I would say FB07 is that many of Clare's senior players seemed fatigued given their exertions over the past two weekends. Limerick met a relatively fresh Clare side.

That's fair enough

I fancied Tipp after watching Limerick put it up to Clare for 40 minutes.

As did I... maybe not to win, but to put up a very good fight anyway.

That was a very young Limerick side with a number of players underage next year, not to mind Cian Lynch who sat his Leaving that morning.

That's true, and we were missing the likes of David Reidy, Barry O'Connell, Jack Aherne who would have improved us.

I thought Tipp played very well, used their number 13 around the middle and had Johnny Meagher sweeping and playing great ball into the forwards more often than not.

Tipp were excellent; Cahill, as you say, was very prominent but their ball-winning forwards like O'Riordan and Forde also made a big impact, and their half-back line was a lot more impressive than ours were.

When I saw the LK team named, I thought Pat Ryan would have drifted out as a third midfielder giving that he was hurling well for Doon there.

Yeah, I would have thought something like that too tbh.

Cork are always going to be strong at this level considering the strength of their local colleges in the Fitz and Freshers competitions.

Both LIT & UL impressed a lot in the Fitzgibbon this year.




I still think we under-performed a lot- I expected so much more from the likes of Dowling, Byrnes, Carmody, Fitzgibbon, O'Donoghue... but not only that, we weren't set up intelligently to counter Clare's strengths or expose their weaknesses. Which was the most disappointing thing. And when Clare took control, we didn't have much of an answer.

francozola

Fireball07 wrote: »

Both LIT & UL impressed a lot in the Fitzgibbon this year.

What I meant was that the majority of UCC & CIT's players are from Cork, play Cork senior hurling championship with their club & college.
In Limerick, there's a mix mainly between Galway, Clare, Tipp & Limerick lads playing.
I just think when you have a bunch of players from one county making up a colleges team and doing well it bodes well for that county and shouldn't come as a surprise at underage level - like Cork have.

paddy no 11

So wexford, we can beat them for sure, so long as Richie goes well on McDonald, presumably hickey would pick up McGovern which would suit us...hopefully. Obviously both half backs need to improve drastically if the 2 are given another chance. Our midfield and forwards can cause them far more problems than Waterford tonight.

The Letheram

Hard to disagree with all you say there Paddy. Wexford man btw here. However the biggest problem I see Wexford having is in dealing with Mulcahy and Dowling inside. The flip side to that is that I don't see the Limerick half back line and centrefield being able to dominatevagainst the Wex half forwards and centre. I reckon that the Wx half forwards need tonstep up bif time for 2 rrasons next week. 1. To prevent good delivery to the Limerick inside line. 2. I reckon this Limerick full back line are very well equipped to deal with the two Mc's so scores need to come from outside. However if McGovern hurls at half forward he could do damage against ye're half backs.

glasagusban

Wexford on a super run and more than capable of beating us. However, if we do win, would our two wing backs on current form live with kk? They'd be destroyed by TJ Reid et al. Bold calls needed here. TJ hasn't shown much faith in the bench so far, especially against Cork when it was needed, so I doubt it'll happen. On what I've seen of us this year I'd pick:

Quaid
Walsh
Richie
Condon
Tom Ryan
Wayne Mc
Hickey
Ryan
Browne
Allis
Dodge
Breen
Mulcahy
Dowling
Downes

If playing a three man full forward line our half forwards need to play deeper I think, to provide some cover for our half backs and give space to an undoubtedly dangerous inside line. They also need strict instruction that their first priority is ball into space to the two corner forwards, not constantly taking poor shots themselves (Dodge) and not constant route one high ball to Dowling. Our two corner forwards had the beating of their men last day out, if they'd seen enough ball we might have nicked that game.

letowski

glasagusban wrote: »

Wexford on a super run and more than capable of beating us. However, if we do win, would our two wing backs on current form live with kk? They'd be destroyed by TJ Reid et al. Bold calls needed here. TJ hasn't shown much faith in the bench so far, especially against Cork when it was needed, so I doubt it'll happen. On what I've seen of us this year I'd pick:

Quaid
Walsh
Richie
Condon
Tom Ryan
Wayne Mc
Hickey
Ryan
Browne
Allis
Dodge
Breen
Mulcahy
Dowling
Downes

If playing a three man full forward line our half forwards need to play deeper I think, to provide some cover for our half backs and give space to an undoubtedly dangerous inside line. They also need strict instruction that their first priority is ball into space to the two corner forwards, not constantly taking poor shots themselves (Dodge) and not constant route one high ball to Dowling. Our two corner forwards had the beating of their men last day out, if they'd seen enough ball we might have nicked that game.

I wouldn't lose too much faith in Hannon yet, glasagusban. I know he hasn't played well against Tipp and Cork, but you can't underestimate having no pre-season and league work done. It has definitely affected his performance and he has struggled to reach the pitch of the games. It's very hard to just turn it on for championship.

Conor McGrath I know for us, missed everything last year up until the league relegation play-off. He too struggled similarly and was very inconsistent up until the QF against Galway.

In both cases, those two forwards are probably the most talented in their respective county. I think there is still a good chance Hannon will make his mark soon this year, as he finds his feet. He has all the ability, I think he just needs to move better off the ball, to get involved more with ye're midfielders. As you said above, POM and GOM's performances have been poor this year, and these two are ye're best distributor's of the ball from defence. Improvement in the wing backs and likes of Hannon and Downes become much more of a threat for ye up front.

paddy no 11

Think we are all agreed that the performance of our half backs is crucial to the result.

Letheram, hickey will 100% pick up McGovern and follow him. What was the point in starting hehoe tonight, not much of a confidence booster to be hauled off after 20.

Our biggest concern is the lack of decisions on the sidelined during games and the lack of faith in the subs you csn only go so far with that sort of stuff, hopefully we get past this round.

Agree glas about picking half backs for KK. For me it would be tomas ryan, but the management could put one of hickey, hannon, DOG, Breen there.

As you say big calls to be made in selecgtion and more importantly on sunday

The Letheram

I suppose Kehoe got his reward for the goal and all round good show against Clare. His shooting is a huge problem though. The Wx boys seem very united about substitutions etc with P Morris coming off against Clare and back on in ET to get 3 points.

paddy no 11

The Letheram wrote: »

I suppose Kehoe got his reward for the goal and all round good show against Clare. His shooting is a huge problem though. The Wx boys seem very united about substitutions etc with P Morris coming off against Clare and back on in ET to get 3 points.

The opposite of us regarding subs and its something we have to sort out.

savannahkat

Talking about who will be your wing backs against Kilkenny is a bit premature and a bit dangerous. If your players and management think the same way, you will not have to worry about it after Sunday.

bennyl10

To.let ye know, for sunday, if buying online, both stands appear to be sold on tickets.ie

Fireball07

I'd agree with glas' team, although still not convinced by Wayne at centre-back, would prefer him on the wing. But definitely need Hickey & Ryan in the half-back line on the current form of our half-backs.

And I would also start Hannon on the bench, use him as an impact sub.

Wexford have a very physical backline and they could cause problems for us in that regard. Not 100% convinced by Allis either, but who else is there? Not sure Moran is an option realistically... the only other thing would be to play Cathal King as an extra midfielder and play with 5 forwards... but when 2 of those forwards are Dodge & Breen, you've only got 3 natural scoring forwards there (although both those can score, they're not forwards like Dowling, Downes & Mul).

But I'd have Downes at centre-forward for sure.


McGovern will be a real handful... McDonald is a threat, because even if Richie has a good game, McDonald is capable of getting goals.

glasagusban

savannahkat wrote: »

Talking about who will be your wing backs against Kilkenny is a bit premature and a bit dangerous. If your players and management think the same way, you will not have to worry about it after Sunday.

You're right of course. Wexford are an equally strong team as us on what we've seen the last two games. My point should be that we have problems and they should be addressed before this game, instead of being neglected and exposed massively in the next game if we do get through.

Fireball07

I imagine we will be favourites against Wexford, we are further ahead in our development than them; we beat them in the league this year but we can't under-estimate them. They've shown what they are capable of by dumping out the champions, and disposing of Waterford.

We do need to sort out our problems, been there all year now. I don't think Paudie or Gavin can start at wing-back this time, and Ryan/Hickey are the logical replacements. One slight worry is that Ryan has been played in the forwards for the last while, when it's not his natural position and would be the perfect player to slot in for Gavin... he's strong, quick and a good hurler. Bit wild at times, but our wing-backs haven't even been using the ball that well, which is why those 2 are selected in the first place.


McDonald/McGovern/Guiney/Morris... all players who can win their own ball, and score. Always a huge help, and in that area, they will trouble us. They hit an awful lot of wides though, and that's really why I think we'll win. Downes caused problems when he got the ball against them in the league, if we can supply good ball inside to whoever is in there, there are goals to be got.