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*Limerick GAA news/discussion thread*
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If TJ does stay on, there would have to be a bit of a shake-up in the management team. The reality is from a coaching, fitness and tactical point of view, we were off the pace this season.
The number 1 priority next season is the league, to use it properly and hopefully, finally, gain promotion. The were comments from one Limerick player during the season which essentially suggested that Limerick didn't really care about the league and it was all championship, which is utter bolloxology in my view and suggests there was little competition for places in the squad at that time. Playing the same full-back line through-out the league certainly indicated this and it came back to haunt us in the championship where we went out against Tipp with 2 players in that line with questionable fitness. There were a number of surprise omissions from the squad at the start of the year and I would hope to see the likes of Tom Ryan and Alan Dempsey return next year as they would strengthen the squad considerably. In addition, a few more of the recent minors should start coming through next year, Richie English, Tom Morrissey, ALTC, Ronan Lynch, Colin Ryan, David Dempsey being potential candidates. Limerick people still have a hang-up about blooding players early, probably because of how the U21 three-in-a-row team fared, but as Clare proved and Waterford are beginning to prove, if they are good enough they are old enough. If the management, whoever they end up being, show a real desire to try different players during the league, the competition for places will be a boost in so many ways; freshness, fitness, workrate. The mantra for next spring should be "Work beats talent when talent isn't working."
Players are only part of the recipe - we need to coach ourselves into better use of the ball; use of the ball that suits our players but with keeping an eye on what other counties are doing as well. Unlike the out-and-out possession based teams such as Clare and Waterford, we do have players that can win primary possession, so I think we can mix the long ball and stick-passing more than some counties. I fear we're very one-paced in our forwards for the possession game side of things, however, we're missing "greyhound" type players that add pace and movement particularly in the middle third, it's the overlaps and space created by players in this area of the field that creates scores. The biggest problem with the orthodox lineup as we use it is that a three man full-forward line crowds the space in the part of the pitch where you want to create it. It worked to a degree against Clare because we withdrew the half forwards out the pitch which created the space in front of Lynch and Mulcahy, but in general a three man full-forward line means you are hitting the ball direct to someone coming away from goal, rather than hitting it into space where the attacker and defender are turned, a much more difficult scenario for the defender to defend against.
Little things: We've gone soft. I don't attend training but to me we look like a team where the whistle is going frequently enough in practice matches, I was watching some of the players being pulled and dragged against Dublin, going to ground and their arms outstretched looking for frees that were never going to be given. Put the whistle away in training and let them flake the ****e out of each other; again it's work-rate, the player that shrugs off the opposing player or gets straight up and makes the run will always be more useful than the player looking for a handy free. Players taking too much out of the ball is currently endemic in our senior team, Breen, Lynch, S O'Brien and Hickey particularly guilty culprits and how this hasn't been coached out of them I don't know. Positioning under the dropping ball is another one, Hannon and Breen for two big men we are hoping to win puck-outs for us getting caught regularly too far forward to reach the ball. Identify individual faults and concentrate on coaching them out of the player, I remember reading before about Cregan coaching Brian Geary into catching the ball with the correct hand and this playing a huge part into transforming him in the middle of the 00s.
I don't buy into comments suggesting that this is the end of the road for this particular team, we won't win an AI for at least another three years, etc, etc. There are players within the county to challenge if the setup is right.0 -
Can you point to anything rather than heresay where Kinnerk was approached by Limerick and rejected it saying he wouldn't work with Ryan, where he said he only wants a 'possession' game whatever that means and where he has said he's going back to Clare in 2016?
As I understand it, it was said Kinnerk was going travelling for a year when he left the Clare setup but that was before he joined the Limerick underage football academy...he might end up back in Clare but it's all just heresay and guessing and pointless.
including from Donal og who shouldn't be highlighting it on national media, the guy is entitled to his own plans without people speculating on it off their own batt to try to bolster davys position.
Look point is he was asked to join limerick last year in limerick leader had interest from limerick was shown
He declined as he's going travelling
As post up article said he would be rejoin clare in year after
I didn't put words in a mouth
You give your opinion on match etc what you see before you or in media etc
My point was on basis as said above he's likely be clare as clare paper said so I gave my opinion in yes he has affection clare hurling but I gave my opinion just my opinion that he would choose worj with Fitzgerald in clare as he's system possession game worked their rather than limerick in as many posters here said many different ones limerick have been orthodox this year
He's travelling yes but Cusack was only saying as any pundit would do he huge huge loss to clare and he was asked what clare should do now to win an all Ireland
He just gave he's answer get him back
If he can'tgive he's answer what's the point of pundits0 -
Twoman Fullbackline wrote: »If TJ does stay on, there would have to be a bit of a shake-up in the management team. The reality is from a coaching, fitness and tactical point of view, we were off the pace this season.
The number 1 priority next season is the league, to use it properly and hopefully, finally, gain promotion. The were comments from one Limerick player during the season which essentially suggested that Limerick didn't really care about the league and it was all championship, which is utter bolloxology in my view and suggests there was little competition for places in the squad at that time. Playing the same full-back line through-out the league certainly indicated this and it came back to haunt us in the championship where we went out against Tipp with 2 players in that line with questionable fitness. There were a number of surprise omissions from the squad at the start of the year and I would hope to see the likes of Tom Ryan and Alan Dempsey return next year as they would strengthen the squad considerably. In addition, a few more of the recent minors should start coming through next year, Richie English, Tom Morrissey, ALTC, Ronan Lynch, Colin Ryan, David Dempsey being potential candidates. Limerick people still have a hang-up about blooding players early, probably because of how the U21 three-in-a-row team fared, but as Clare proved and Waterford are beginning to prove, if they are good enough they are old enough. If the management, whoever they end up being, show a real desire to try different players during the league, the competition for places will be a boost in so many ways; freshness, fitness, workrate. The mantra for next spring should be "Work beats talent when talent isn't working."
Players are only part of the recipe - we need to coach ourselves into better use of the ball; use of the ball that suits our players but with keeping an eye on what other counties are doing as well. Unlike the out-and-out possession based teams such as Clare and Waterford, we do have players that can win primary possession, so I think we can mix the long ball and stick-passing more than some counties. I fear we're very one-paced in our forwards for the possession game side of things, however, we're missing "greyhound" type players that add pace and movement particularly in the middle third, it's the overlaps and space created by players in this area of the field that creates scores. The biggest problem with the orthodox lineup as we use it is that a three man full-forward line crowds the space in the part of the pitch where you want to create it. It worked to a degree against Clare because we withdrew the half forwards out the pitch which created the space in front of Lynch and Mulcahy, but in general a three man full-forward line means you are hitting the ball direct to someone coming away from goal, rather than hitting it into space where the attacker and defender are turned, a much more difficult scenario for the defender to defend against.
Little things: We've gone soft. I don't attend training but to me we look like a team where the whistle is going frequently enough in practice matches, I was watching some of the players being pulled and dragged against Dublin, going to ground and their arms outstretched looking for frees that were never going to be given. Put the whistle away in training and let them flake the ****e out of each other; again it's work-rate, the player that shrugs off the opposing player or gets straight up and makes the run will always be more useful than the player looking for a handy free. Players taking too much out of the ball is currently endemic in our senior team, Breen, Lynch, S O'Brien and Hickey particularly guilty culprits and how this hasn't been coached out of them I don't know. Positioning under the dropping ball is another one, Hannon and Breen for two big men we are hoping to win puck-outs for us getting caught regularly too far forward to reach the ball. Identify individual faults and concentrate on coaching them out of the player, I remember reading before about Cregan coaching Brian Geary into catching the ball with the correct hand and this playing a huge part into transforming him in the middle of the 00s.
I don't buy into comments suggesting that this is the end of the road for this particular team, we won't win an AI for at least another three years, etc, etc. There are players within the county to challenge if the setup is right.
You have great points
Who would be your back room team with Ryan as manager0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »I didn't put words in a mouth
You very clearly put words in his mouth and it was highly inappropriate for you to purport to speak for him.0 -
Right, first things first, I'd like to thank the players for playing this year. These guys sacrifice a lot to play hurling at the top level between summers away, years abroad and professional careers outside of gaa and I think that gets forgotten at times like this. I was delighted Richie went some way to proving his doubters wrong (aside from the goal).
Now, onto management. When it comes to reviewing the year in the cold light of day it has to be viewed as an abject failure. Not sure what this "review" will involve and who'll be doing the reviewing but the four goals we should have had were 1) Promotion to 1B - Failure 2) Beat Clare - success 3) Beat Tipp - Failure, 4) All ireland final appearance - Failure. 1 out of 4.
In the aftermath of that defeat to Dublin it's very hard to be optimistic for a future under the present management team. I'm not one to delve too much into interviews and things said after games but this quote concerns me hugely:
"When you get beaten, you can question everything. Hindsight is marvellous and sport is brilliant in hindsight but I thought we prepared well and picked the team well and thought we had done a good job on Dublin".
If the management team genuinely thought in training that we were preparing well questions need to be asked because Stevie Wonder could see we were miles off the pace all year. After the struggle against Westmeath I think a lot in the county weren't hopeful or confident and there was a low ebb. Maybe this fed into the camp, who knows. If TJ stays he needs to change the coaches but needs to get the right guys in.
None of us know what goes on in the camp and none of us know whether our esteemed wise men of a county board interfere but looking at the panel I'd have concerns around why some guys have been kept on the bench for years. I hope club politics doesn't come into it but I'd have my fears. Surely this year was an ideal year to have more of the minors involved (maybe a blessing in disguise though).
Finally, clubs are culpable for this managerial malaise. Why can't any of our senior clubs give limerick coaches experience at senior level? The county board insisting on a limerick man being in charge after Allen looks foolish when Limerick clubs don't even trust their own.
This experiment is starting to look very like Steve Staunton and Bobby Robson that time. Grand and rosy at the start but looking ominous now. I hope I'm proven wrong though.0 -
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glasagusban wrote: »You very clearly put words in his mouth and it was highly inappropriate for you to purport to speak for him.
No i did not
Show me clearly where I did
I said he'd choose Fitzgerald over Ryan in simply words as manager
I didn't elaborate why in full details as surely it's well known Kinnerk possession game coach and Ryan limerick have been the traditional Limerick style
When I don't go in to detail it leaves me open to you to twist it yet I showed you common courtesy keeping my posts short like you asked yesterday to be fair now
Simply proved after why thought that
He declined limerick and said in clare paper coming back next year
My opinion just my opinion like you give your opinion on things is he choose clare as can play he's style play
Fireball made comment he was right Kinnerk should be approached as manager bring in who he wants full control team and style he wants play
Fireball was it seems of the view Kinnerk has he own style
Kinnerk imo no problem with Ryan and he's hugely popular limerick my point is style both want may conflict and like many yes many poster said limerick were direct this year
I asked you regards caoimhin harty cup on Kinnerk style play
But typically you refused to answer
In awful awful weather in the winter he played possession game and they played it superbly
Clare style is the possession game
Flannan under o Connor the same
Clare blue print for hurling is the pooession game imo at all levels
Limerick style is well known
My opinion is purely on style play Kinnerk prefers pooession game
Debate this point if you choose if not fair enough but please stop with this nonsense twisting posts and take out of context as you done twice with two my posts in one day0 -
What do you mean by Robson and Staunton reference?Right, first things first, I'd like to thank the players for playing this year. These guys sacrifice a lot to play hurling at the top level between summers away, years abroad and professional careers outside of gaa and I think that gets forgotten at times like this. I was delighted Richie went some way to proving his doubters wrong (aside from the goal).
Now, onto management. When it comes to reviewing the year in the cold light of day it has to be viewed as an abject failure. Not sure what this "review" will involve and who'll be doing the reviewing but the four goals we should have had were 1) Promotion to 14 - Failure 2) Beat Clare - success 3) Beat Tipp - Failure, 4) All ireland final appearance - Failure. 1 out of 4.
In the aftermath of that defeat to Dublin it's very hard to be optimistic for a future under the present management team. I'm not one to delve too much into interviews and things said after games but this quote concerns me hugely:
"When you get beaten, you can question everything. Hindsight is marvellous and sport is brilliant in hindsight but I thought we prepared well and picked the team well and thought we had done a good job on Dublin".
If the management team genuinely thought in training that we were preparing well questions need to be asked because Stevie Wonder could see we were miles off the pace all year. After the struggle against Westmeath I think a lot in the county weren't hopeful or confident and there was a low ebb. Maybe this fed into the camp, who knows. If TJ stays he needs to change the coaches but needs to get the right guys in.
None of us know what goes on in the camp and none of us know whether our esteemed wise men of a county board interfere but looking at the panel I'd have concerns around why some guys have been kept on the bench for years. I hope club politics doesn't come into it but I'd have my fears. Surely this year was an ideal year to have more of the minors involved (maybe a blessing in disguise though).
Finally, clubs are culpable for this managerial malaise. Why can't any of our senior clubs give limerick coaches experience at senior level? The county board insisting on a limerick man being in charge after Allen looks foolish when Limerick clubs don't even trust their own.
This experiment is starting to look very like Steve Staunton and Bobby Robson that time. Grand and rosy at the start but looking ominous now. I hope I'm proven wrong though.
I agree with a lot of your points0 -
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thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »What do you mean by Robson and Staunton reference?
I agree with a lot of your points
That TJ was brought in with OGrady with a view to take over. Staunton and Robson was similar.
Ireland were alright for first few months but not long after the battling one nil away to Germany we had our San Marino moment. Obviously ogrady went very early in the day (who knows the full story there!) but a rookie manager learning the ropes at the highest level often doesn't work.0 -
Great posts Browney and Twoman Fullbackline.
You'd have to say management have a lot to do over the winter. A lot of talk of "style" being pushed the few pages as if there were only two types of ways to play. Personally I like the set up under Allen and think it could be tweaked to be a bit more attacking. I think the way Tipp play with a former mid/halfback in Brendan Maher named at 11 but playing mostly at midfield would be a good template for us. Lots of use of long ball from Tipp but it is generally diagonal and either to hand or to space.
Lots of questions as to how to get the best from the players we have. For example, Downes, Hannon, and Lynch are arguably all best at centre forward. Would the rest of the forwards be best served by Downes winning ball and tearing through the centre, by Hannon as a traditional 11 (if he can hit the heights he did v kk last year), or Lynch as a playmaker? Dowling is probably our best forward (even if management didn't see it that way in the Dublin game, another failing) but where is he best deployed. I think he's an out an out full forward but some would say he's too slow to operate in a two man full forward line -I don't agree with that either, he's shown he's well able to be out in front in summer. Loads of talk of a sweeper but the best teams generally play a centre back that sits deep with mids and a deep playing half forward covering in front of them. If the opposition play a two man full forward line there should be a clear plan for who the free man will be and what their role is. Setting up "with a sweeper" makes no sense if your opponents play two inside and all of a sudden you have two free men at the back but are overrun out the field.
There's obviously a lot beyond that to consider. In my view next year needs to be a completely clean slate and maybe about five players should be certain starters next year: Quaid in goals if not moved up field; Richie, as we definitely have no better full back; Gavin but I'd love to see him back at half forward, he's perfect to play deep from there; Lynch, could play from 8 to 15; and Dowling.
Every other player is under pressure for a starting place IMO. All our backs had good moments and ropey moments but I'd tend to think Hickey and Seanie will keep their places. We need some corner back options and I'd hope Dempsey and English at a minimum are given a chance, I think ALTC could make a fine corner back to start his senior career. At half back we are still struggling. Hickey Seanie, and Gavin are good options. Morrissey may be one. I'd expect Byrnes to come in at wing or 6. I think Quaid should be tried here (with Murphy to goals), and I still think Wayne can be a quality 5.
Our mids have been a strength for us but I'm beginning to think we need to make a hard call or two here. Ryan gets through a mountain of work and wins so much possession, huge fan, but is his use effective? No one can cover ground like Browne but same question relevant. Would hickey, Seanie, Tom Ryan, c lynch, r lynch, do better?
Forwards there probably won't be much change. Dowling needs to stay. Downes has be given a run of games to stake a claim, I think he could take Breens spot, he brings the same directness but is more clinical. Hannon needs to demonstrate sufficient workrate. Lynch needs to be utilised better. Ronan Lynch or Gavin could be added at half forward. Mulcahy, Tobin need to start finally being fed ball in space. David Dempsey, Morrissey, Nash, O'Brien, Lynch need to give us viable options from the bench.
Looking at the personnel available I think they're good enough to compete with anyone. And we will definitely have a stronger panel next year than in 2015. Fitness, organisation and coaching needs to bring the best out of them though. And some hard calls have to me made on players that have given good service in recent years. This year should have demonstrated problems in the team and in preparation that management can start planning to rectify now. The Clare u21 management famously did it, over to TJ and co to see can they learn from their mistakes.0 -
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You make some interesting points that are well put and deserve to be looked at and I agree with some of them
However I disagree with some and would like to counter debate them
You are right the team needs change and imo the panel but you say just five of the current team to start, you seem to have changed view from last week saying that you were totally against major changes of the team yet you change practically two thirds of it
I think as not just me but at least six different posters acknowledge here the management tactical innovation and appreciation on the field of play, ruthless bold ability make changes, team selection in all games were poor, the playing out of position of players leaves a lot to be desired so I think it's unfair to judge all the players as being not up to the level when the system played to their weakness and not their strengths and players deserve to be looked at in a better system, a classic example to my counter debate is armagh and Donegal in armagh years ago hammered Donegal yet one year a new system completely changed most that team with them winning an ulster title
Tom Ryan played long direct style of play with newtownshandrum and they lost a county final to Blackrock yet pooession game won them the all ireland the following year under ger Cunningham the excellent limerick coach
Limerick have players huge great servant limerick hurling like McNamara tobin, o brien, etc that imo aren't suited to a fast game with pooession being key and should be dropped next year but I'd keep core of the team
You here seem to be of the view management this same management may learn from mistake
That is your hope going forward
Let's be honest now all league and championship and the failure get promoted, loosing to tipperary's and barely beating westmeath and then lost to Dublin despite having better hurlers shows they as a unit of management haven't learned at all
My opinion also and I'm not putting words players mouth but just my observations and I could be wrong is players while belive in Ryan management and be fair Ryan surprised me man management how he turned last season around to the players being hugely committed in every game and is equally to jbm and cody man management I would wonder do the players belive in the system as there lethargic no energy performance seem like they don't imo
You mention Allen style
I'm not going over old ground but to counter debate this as you were the one to reference him Allen style was in my opinion too old school and same style cody clearly beat in 2006 with Cork in yes not as total as Cork pooession game but too predicable and clare destroyed Allen style on all ireland semi final
Allen style also lost to Dublin by a point in league promotional play off the day boland got the match winning score
Limerick need a completely new style of play and the traditional style will be used as a plan b when needed
I think Ryan has to stay as manager but the limerick leader article suggests now it is not clear cut
I don't rate he's management but I'm totally opposed he being sacked as board so loyal to him last year he doesn't now deserves be sacked and he should never been given like I felt then a new term
The only way limerick will evolve and adapt is by he staying with bran new selectors set up and niall moran involvement would offer best hope change in style
If limerick don't change and leave as it is just hoping they learn mistake imo is not backed up with logic as Browney said the team has gone backwards this year with little player improvement and no improvement from two years ago
If that's the case it mean it two more years for a new manager before he's coming in with them two years to build a team which is even fast tracking it
People most remember also limerick young generation outstanding hurlers success winning from all ireland under sixteen with Quaid to minor and if they go under management that doesn't get the best from the team few years defeats could really affect their confidence and they don't fear Cork or tipp from under age but loosing few years at senior will change that
A crucial cross roads for Limerick hurling imo now
As for browny I see your point with reference to Staunton etc
Just to go further your right Staunton was terrific over hundred cap servant ireland and great great really great player and with villa and Liverpool was brilliant and man match v Germany world cup draw thirteen years ago and could possibly play wing centre half left full
Ryan is extremely similar in outstanding great great great player limerick up their best game could be versatile play full forward full back and half back but like Staunton there's two different skills sets in management and playing
There was an outstanding article in the examiner today about how modern tactic are paramount to hurling now days
It's simple essential for any all ireland team to have imo0 -
If you want an excellent coach and probably the best out there, get Martin Fogarty. He would easily win the managers position in Kilkenny, if Brian Cody retired tomorrow
Fogarty was heavily involved with Westmeath and just look at their improvement. He was the man who singled out Mick Dempsey (an ex Laois senior footballer ) to get involved in coaching the Kilkenny under 21 to All Ireland success and who subsequently has spent 10 years as the Kilkenny senior trainer. Martin himself was a selector for three years under Cody.
Limerick have there own style and it not a possession style. TJ clearly knows this and has stopped Limerick from going down that particular cul de sac.. TJ is not a bad manager in fact he has the potential to be a great manager. Blaming managers is a Limerick sickness. All the managers since 1973 cannot all have been useless. Changing managers every time Limerick lose is counter productive. After the Kilkenny match last year I was struck by TJ's grace in defeat. It was a class act and showed how deeply he does know his business. It reminded me very much of Brian Cody''s interview after losing the 1999 All Ireland.
Limerick have won nothing of worth since 1973 though they should have won a number of titles. Limerick do not need outside managers, all they need is a real hurling coach, some one who has been involved with success at the very highest levels , some one who will see their strengths and improve them and not try to change their style and try to emulate the shyte tactics of Clare, Cork and Waterford this year. Shyte tactics that are ruining the game and were developed to make the best out of average players who cannot win primary possession. Kilkenny and Tipp have gone on to dominate because they don't buy into the shyte.
Fogarty you can be sure will have Limerick take the league seriously. He would beat the nonsense out of Limerick that league does not matter. Hang on to TJ, he is a diamond in the rough, all you need is some one of Fogarty's caliber to polish him up.0 -
It's great saying that management needs a shake up but will it actually happen? There's way too much politics involved and my understanding of it is that management feel they did everything right this year and it is the players that didn't deliver... Management seem to have the support of the county board and will dig their heels in and only the clubs can change things but that is never going to happen. If TJ was able to stand back objectively surely he can see that himself and his team have come up short this year in a big way and if he has any integrity he will change things up. I don't have much faith in it happening tho.
Limerick were drill happy this year... stupid drills the mornings of games and stupid drills during training and the basics of the game were ignored and it was very, very evident. That's nothing to do with the players....
Also, the same group of players have been there for 4/5 years now, as an ex-inter county player himself, surely TJ knew things needed freshed up a bit and senior players needed to be challenged.
It was also evident that a lot of players didn't know their role this year -Dec Hannon being one. He has come in for a bit of criticism but he looked like he was running around a bit headless all year without a specific role- again, this is down to management. Playing players midfield one game, then half back the next - Young O'Brien being put into the full back line.... All suggests that management were making it up as they went along. Yes players have to take responsibility on the field and take charge of the situation but they also need leadership, direction and vision from the sideline.
I thought the last few years that Limerick hurling had turned a corner - there was a sense of unity about the team and the way we went about things. But it is evident now that last year was very much down to the work O'Grady did early in the year and this notion of Limerick needing a Limerick man is bullsh*t as there is too much politics involved and if anything, Limerick needs an outside man.0 -
Regards the parts on fogarty I'd totally agree and he's outstanding coach and would be a major coup major coup for Limerick but it seems unlikely imo
Maybe he will be asked who knows down the line
There's a myth in gaa that is over blown there that kk don't do tactics
Since 2006 kk have since they destroyed cork three in a row with tactical master mind by cody and against Dublin last year with a sweeper and many times have consistently showed different tactical awareness
The media rather like to focus on kk man to man ability as players that are simply outstanding and greatest game lucky to have seen but we can't be naive to think to kk don't play tactics
Clare simply with no ball winner really can afford play kk way so their pooession game won them an all Ireland
Tippeary are not the naive free flowing tippeary of old either that they last year when then humiliation of cork played a sweeper and against Waterford played a sweeper
Cork free flowing hurling won't come close to beating kk so have no choice but to become tactically efficency
Kk have better players than most so going man for man they haven't a chance
A system gives them that chance but it's still hugely difficult to beat a truly exceptional young kk team that are building again and imo set for domination for the next five years
I said this in January
Whatever happens this year it's hugely worrying the state of hurling in other counties in management sense
Clare could have new management but unlikely so if Kinnerk comes back as won all ireland may have a chance two years
Limerick if things don't change in the selectors won't challenge and even so like the statics show no team from division two since ninety six won an all Ireland and limerick won't win it or any division two team next year even clare
Waterford be fair McGrath has done well and deserves new term and defence is good but all league he's team hasn't scores enough from play and tippeary proved that Sunday and out of all the teams weekend waterford were either worst off scoring from play of around that and huge challenge is will they change to attack and kk will imo beat waterford this year all ireland semi final
Challenge is for waterford to evolve and not be a one trick pony
It remain to be seen
Galway if they don't win the all ireland you would think cunningjham is gone as manager as farell said he's outgrown them last year
Galway may beat Cork but I can't see them beating kk in all ireland even though cunningjham said he will be playing kk again after the Leinster final
I don't see it myself
Dublin have young players coming through that cunningjham is trying to build a team but won't win next year
Cork even if the unlikely happened we win the all ireland jbm could resign and problem in Cork is tomas mulchay outstanding captain and players and servant wants the job and could get it and he's record at senior and under twenty one With glen Rovers is poor
I like Eoin kelly have huge reservations about the appointment of selector to all ireland team before season ends in Michael Ryan to tippeary
If tipperary's don't win the all ireland a selector with eight year involved in team just one all ireland to now management a team with plenty of young talent coming through doubts remain is he there too long in the set up with no success
In essence my worry in hurling sense is kk could dominated hurling for the next few years quite easily in cody always evolved but other counties by not fixing their own problems won't even challenge kk is my fear
Time and again we hear the hurling committee from their green velvet table preach about hurling is their agenda the state of the game
What is often ignored is how management is paramount to success like the football showed and they should be a general mandate from croke park no management any team is left get senior job unless they have some sort of proven record and this would prevent other counties failing and loosing key years in development over management that can't performance at senior and the likes of the tomas mulchay and Ryan would never got or will get the top jobs in hurling until their record is some what justified that
Cody yes lost he's ist all ireland but he's the true exception to the rule with no real proven record before hand imo0 -
TTM, it's frustrating replying to you half the time but even more so when you won't even read what others say properly.
I said in my view 5 players can be guaranteed their place next year, with everyone else under pressure for their place.
The next 5, 6 or 7 positions will likely be players currently on the team, as I went on to outline. They are under pressure to keep their places though.
I reckon three, or at a maximum four new players will come into the starting team that weren't there this year. I expect Ronan Lynch and Byrnes to come into the starting 15 with maybe one or two more, and the front runners for those one or two more are likely to have been former panellists that weren't there this year.0 -
savannahkat wrote: »If you want an excellent coach and probably the best out there, get Martin Fogarty. He would easily win the managers position in Kilkenny, if Brian Cody retired tomorrow
Fogarty was heavily involved with Westmeath and just look at their improvement. He was the man who singled out Mick Dempsey (an ex Laois senior footballer ) to get involved in coaching the Kilkenny under 21 to All Ireland success and who subsequently has spent 10 years as the Kilkenny senior trainer. Martin himself was a selector for three years under Cody.
Limerick have there own style and it not a possession style. TJ clearly knows this and has stopped Limerick from going down that particular cul de sac.. TJ is not a bad manager in fact he has the potential to be a great manager. Blaming managers is a Limerick sickness. All the managers since 1973 cannot all have been useless. Changing managers every time Limerick lose is counter productive. After the Kilkenny match last year I was struck by TJ's grace in defeat. It was a class act and showed how deeply he does know his business. It reminded me very much of Brian Cody''s interview after losing the 1999 All Ireland.
Limerick have won nothing of worth since 1973 though they should have won a number of titles. Limerick do not need outside managers, all they need is a real hurling coach, some one who has been involved with success at the very highest levels , some one who will see their strengths and improve them and not try to change their style and try to emulate the shyte tactics of Clare, Cork and Waterford this year. Shyte tactics that are ruining the game and were developed to make the best out of average players who cannot win primary possession. Kilkenny and Tipp have gone on to dominate because they don't buy into the shyte.
Fogarty you can be sure will have Limerick take the league seriously. He would beat the nonsense out of Limerick that league does not matter. Hang on to TJ, he is a diamond in the rough, all you need is some one of Fogarty's caliber to polish him up.
A top coach is what's needed, no question about it.
As for blaming managers, it does tend to happen alright but looking back, the Tom Ryan years should have definitely yielded at least one but when the chips were down we got outfoxed and had no bottle. 96 was lost on the sideline but stage fright struck as well.
Cregan did an alright job of it. Maybe dismantled the previous team a bit early but could have won Munster in 2001. We made a shyte of it against Wexford then again.
Think it was Pad Joe after that? We failed to deliver but that team was limited.
Dave Keane was given no chance at all. He deserved another go.
Joe McKennas term ended in a shambles down in Clare after having gotten to a league final.
Richie stepped in and I'd argue he got the best out of any Limerick team for a long time with limited resources. Kilkenny were always going to win that final though.
The point of this? I'm not sure myself. I suppose none of the people given the reins were cody esque (I don't think his achievements will ever be surpassed in the modern game) but we didn't have strong enough panels with players having the right attitude either. We probably still don't.0 -
I'd agree with your points there well put in fairnessIt's great saying that management needs a shake up but will it actually happen? There's way too much politics involved and my understanding of it is that management feel they did everything right this year and it is the players that didn't deliver... Management seem to have the support of the county board and will dig their heels in and only the clubs can change things but that is never going to happen. If TJ was able to stand back objectively surely he can see that himself and his team have come up short this year in a big way and if he has any integrity he will change things up. I don't have much faith in it happening tho.
Limerick were drill happy this year... stupid drills the mornings of games and stupid drills during training and the basics of the game were ignored and it was very, very evident. That's nothing to do with the players....
Also, the same group of players have been there for 4/5 years now, as an ex-inter county player himself, surely TJ knew things needed freshed up a bit and senior players needed to be challenged.
It was also evident that a lot of players didn't know their role this year -Dec Hannon being one. He has come in for a bit of criticism but he looked like he was running around a bit headless all year without a specific role- again, this is down to management. Playing players midfield one game, then half back the next - Young O'Brien being put into the full back line.... All suggests that management were making it up as they went along. Yes players have to take responsibility on the field and take charge of the situation but they also need leadership, direction and vision from the sideline.
I thought the last few years that Limerick hurling had turned a corner - there was a sense of unity about the team and the way we went about things. But it is evident now that last year was very much down to the work O'Grady did early in the year and this notion of Limerick needing a Limerick man is bullsh*t as there is too much politics involved and if anything, Limerick needs an outside man.
I always believed as you know limerick need an outside manager or coach to change the culture of past years and get away from the limerick way old school style and mix and match and not be predicable as before
O grady seen as you mentioned him was outstanding in bringing in a change and professional standard and should been left in charge
One game that imo showed limerick possessions game was going to work under him was ist league game in cork down in cork limerick had loads key players out and this was essentially ist game but winner get promoted
Limerick were down a man and style changed from direct play to awesome fast cohesive telephatic dynamic movement with crucial awareness of spatial movement and space and in wet conditions played a possession game and drew a game should have lost down a man but actually deserves to win only for a wonderful late equaliser by cork
Limerick had no choice to play a sweeper and it worked
As time passed in that league some in limerick were against the short game so it wasn't all together as it should of been and the league performance showed that after imo0 -
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/michael-moynihan-hurlings-2015-grand-design-342356.html
A key point also is o shea spoke after about the tactics battles
Watch he's previews of the match with interview on rte before the game
Twice he was asked regards tactics twice he dismissed them in didn't want to engage he said with smile work rate like he'd changed correctly so cody to kerry yerra talk
Tactics are not important he was saying
As if he didn't focus on them
He kept cards close to he's chest but he as Skefflin said and others course he had tactic planned for waterford system
And while it took time and patience like a tactics chess game among two tactical team point is he still won tactic battle as win suggest
But ask him before they play kk and he'll probably say work rate
Right full so don't show your hand to the media
Jbm was always on about work rate and still is but the dog on the street knows main difference were in championship is in two games he's changes whole system tactic wise
May be late in the day for an all Ireland but it's kept us in the championship now to a point
Tactics are the essence of sporting success and gone are the days of any given day you may win an all Ireland imo0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/michael-moynihan-hurlings-2015-grand-design-342356.html
A key point also is o shea spoke after about the tactics battles
Watch he's previews of the match with interview on rte before the game
Twice he was asked regards tactics twice he dismissed them in didn't want to engage he said with smile work rate like he'd changed correctly so cody to kerry yerra talk
Tactics are not important he was saying
As if he didn't focus on them
He kept cards close to he's chest but he as Skefflin said and others course he had tactic planned for waterford system
And while it took time and patience like a tactics chess game among two tactical team point is he still won tactic battle as win suggest
But ask him before they play kk and he'll probably say work rate
Right full so don't show your hand to the media
Jbm was always on about work rate and still is but the dog on the street knows main difference were in championship is in two games he's changes whole system tactic wise
May be late in the day for an all Ireland but it's kept us in the championship now to a point
Tactics are the essence of sporting success and gone are the days of any given day you may win an all Ireland imo
Galway had 60% possession against Kilkenny and still got hockey'd. Work rate will win you nothing if you cant hurl. Cody has you all fooled with his praise of the work rate of Kilkenny. He is sending you all up a blind alley because you are all replacing skill with work rate. Master tactician is our MR Cody.0 -
savannahkat wrote: »Galway had 60% possession against Kilkenny and still got hockey'd. Work rate will win you nothing if you cant hurl. Cody has you all fooled with his praise of the work rate of Kilkenny. He is sending you all up a blind alley because you are all replacing skill with work rate. Master tactician is our MR Cody.
Valid point but to be fair no one can question the hurling of tippeary or Galway or cork in they always had hurling
Cork hurling has had skill always absoultey buy under age tell the story in we relied on our fast hurling with out development aggressive physical side and tactical side like kk done with cody
The myth is cody doesn't do tactics and also he once said it's hard to study a game from the sideline
He's the greatest manager history of the game to judge a game from the line in its game flow0 -
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The Limerick U-21 team to face Tipp has been named, but only 14 players named!David McCarthy
Mark O'Callaghan Richie English Michael Casey
Diarmuid Byrnes Barry O'Connell Gearoid Hegarty
Darragh O'Donovan Pat Ryan
Robbie Hanley Ronan Lynch Dave Dempsey
Kevin O'Brien Tom Morrissey Cian Lynch
KOB is either at 12 or 13, I've presumed 13 and that it's one of the half-forwards they've excluded.
EDIT- Dave Dempsey is the 15th player.0 -
The bench is:
16. Eoghan McNamara (Eoghan Mac Conmara) Doon
17. Sean Finn (Sean O Fionn) Bruff
18. Sean Flanagan (Sean O Flannagáin) Feohanagh/Castlemahon
19. Jody Hannon (Seosanh O hAnnáin) Adare
20. Colin Ryan (Coilín O Riain) Pallasgreen
21. David Condron (Daibhéid O Conaráin) Granagh/Ballingarry
22. Liam O Sullivan (Liam O Súilleabháin) Knockaderry
23. Jack Kelliher (Séamus O Céileachair) Patrickswell
24. Aaron Gillane (Aaron Mac Gileáin) Patrickswell
So I expect the missing player is either Andrew La Touche Cosgrave, David Dempsey or Barry Nash. Either way, it would be a surprise for the 2 of those that aren't included not to be there imo.0 -
David Dempsey is no 120
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It is quite a strong team.
Last year Irwin & O'Callaghan in the corners were caused big problems by the Clare forwards, both are underage this year too but only O'Callaghan makes the team. I rate Casey quite highly, thought Finn might jump ahead of O'Callaghan. English was one of our best players last year at full-back.
Half-back line looks strong. Hegarty is a serious ballwinner, I didn't think he'd start there ahead of ALTC, I thought maybe he'd get a go in the forwards but it does look strong. Barry at centre-back ahead of Byrnes was expected but it is still interesting, think both skillsets would be bettered if they were switched.
Midfield looks good, was expected to start. Cian Lynch & William O'Donoghue were our midfield last year, both are underage again but O'Donoghue's not even on the panel this year. I think we could still see Cian drift out around here. Ryan was corner-forward last year but he's an intelligent hurler and probably better suited to midfield. O'Donovan is a very promising player too. I do think midfield could be Ronan Lynch's best position.
Half-forward line also looks strong. I'm actually quite surprised that Robbie Hanley got in here ahead of the likes of Nash & Cosgrave, or even Colin Ryan or Liam O'Sullivan if Cian Lynch were to start on the wing. He wasn't one of the stars of last year's minor team but was good for Kilmallock and is a clever, hard-working player. Ronan Lynch is a fine scoretaker but I'm not sure it's his best position. Dempsey was on the team last year, fine player, will be expected to make more of an impact this year. Do we have the ballwinners there... you'd think last year's line of Dowling/Dempsey/Fitzgibbon looked a bit more formidable in that regard and they had trouble. Tipp are bound to be strong in that area. Tbh I'm not sure what Hanley is like in the air.
Inside line looks very very very strong. Two senior panellists and Kevin O'Brien who probably should be. We'll probably see Lynch go back around the middle but both O'Brien & Morrissey now have experience from the intermediates, both are goalscorers, both have pace and can win their own ball. Probably our best line.
As I've said numerous times- I am surprised that ATLC, Nash & Ryan weren't picked, I thought they were the stars of the last two minor teams, along with the Lynches & Morrissey. The fact that two of them aren't even on the bench is interesting, I suppose they could possibly be injured or maybe they're not going well in training compared to the others.
On paper, the bench doesn't look unbelievably strong but we do have Ryan there; Eoghan Mac is a serious goalkeeper, Liam O'Sullivan was good enough to start last year & both Kelliher & Gillane have been going well with the Well, by all accounts.
Tipp will be strong but it should be a very good game.0 -
Fireball07 wrote: »It is quite a strong team.
Last year Irwin & O'Callaghan in the corners were caused big problems by the Clare forwards, both are underage this year too but only O'Callaghan makes the team. I rate Casey quite highly, thought Finn might jump ahead of O'Callaghan. English was one of our best players last year at full-back.
Half-back line looks strong. Hegarty is a serious ballwinner, I didn't think he'd start there ahead of ALTC, I thought maybe he'd get a go in the forwards but it does look strong. Barry at centre-back ahead of Byrnes was expected but it is still interesting, think both skillsets would be bettered if they were switched.
Midfield looks good, was expected to start. Cian Lynch & William O'Donoghue were our midfield last year, both are underage again but O'Donoghue's not even on the panel this year. I think we could still see Cian drift out around here. Ryan was corner-forward last year but he's an intelligent hurler and probably better suited to midfield. O'Donovan is a very promising player too. I do think midfield could be Ronan Lynch's best position.
Half-forward line also looks strong. I'm actually quite surprised that Robbie Hanley got in here ahead of the likes of Nash & Cosgrave, or even Colin Ryan or Liam O'Sullivan if Cian Lynch were to start on the wing. He wasn't one of the stars of last year's minor team but was good for Kilmallock and is a clever, hard-working player. Ronan Lynch is a fine scoretaker but I'm not sure it's his best position. Dempsey was on the team last year, fine player, will be expected to make more of an impact this year. Do we have the ballwinners there... you'd think last year's line of Dowling/Dempsey/Fitzgibbon looked a bit more formidable in that regard and they had trouble. Tipp are bound to be strong in that area. Tbh I'm not sure what Hanley is like in the air.
Inside line looks very very very strong. Two senior panellists and Kevin O'Brien who probably should be. We'll probably see Lynch go back around the middle but both O'Brien & Morrissey now have experience from the intermediates, both are goalscorers, both have pace and can win their own ball. Probably our best line.
As I've said numerous times- I am surprised that ATLC, Nash & Ryan weren't picked, I thought they were the stars of the last two minor teams, along with the Lynches & Morrissey. The fact that two of them aren't even on the bench is interesting, I suppose they could possibly be injured or maybe they're not going well in training compared to the others.
On paper, the bench doesn't look unbelievably strong but we do have Ryan there; Eoghan Mac is a serious goalkeeper, Liam O'Sullivan was good enough to start last year & both Kelliher & Gillane have been going well with the Well, by all accounts.
Tipp will be strong but it should be a very good game.
O'donoghue is in the states I heard.
Nash and ALTC were doing the leaving cert this year so that must have come into effect. I wouldnt have an issue with that.If Ronan Lynch didnt start I would be saying the same thing. Castletroy and ASR would have high standards academically so something may have had to give. This is the last year in a while where Limerick possibly won't be considering them over 4+ months too so leave them enjoy it.0 -
Excellent team and I hear there in superb physical condition and are flying and intermediate and senior were favourite but lost but there's no pressure on them as tippeary are favourite and as minor proved limerick love that roleFireball07 wrote: »It is quite a strong team.
Last year Irwin & O'Callaghan in the corners were caused big problems by the Clare forwards, both are underage this year too but only O'Callaghan makes the team. I rate Casey quite highly, thought Finn might jump ahead of O'Callaghan. English was one of our best players last year at full-back.
Half-back line looks strong. Hegarty is a serious ballwinner, I didn't think he'd start there ahead of ALTC, I thought maybe he'd get a go in the forwards but it does look strong. Barry at centre-back ahead of Byrnes was expected but it is still interesting, think both skillsets would be bettered if they were switched.
Midfield looks good, was expected to start. Cian Lynch & William O'Donoghue were our midfield last year, both are underage again but O'Donoghue's not even on the panel this year. I think we could still see Cian drift out around here. Ryan was corner-forward last year but he's an intelligent hurler and probably better suited to midfield. O'Donovan is a very promising player too. I do think midfield could be Ronan Lynch's best position.
Half-forward line also looks strong. I'm actually quite surprised that Robbie Hanley got in here ahead of the likes of Nash & Cosgrave, or even Colin Ryan or Liam O'Sullivan if Cian Lynch were to start on the wing. He wasn't one of the stars of last year's minor team but was good for Kilmallock and is a clever, hard-working player. Ronan Lynch is a fine scoretaker but I'm not sure it's his best position. Dempsey was on the team last year, fine player, will be expected to make more of an impact this year. Do we have the ballwinners there... you'd think last year's line of Dowling/Dempsey/Fitzgibbon looked a bit more formidable in that regard and they had trouble. Tipp are bound to be strong in that area. Tbh I'm not sure what Hanley is like in the air.
Inside line looks very very very strong. Two senior panellists and Kevin O'Brien who probably should be. We'll probably see Lynch go back around the middle but both O'Brien & Morrissey now have experience from the intermediates, both are goalscorers, both have pace and can win their own ball. Probably our best line.
As I've said numerous times- I am surprised that ATLC, Nash & Ryan weren't picked, I thought they were the stars of the last two minor teams, along with the Lynches & Morrissey. The fact that two of them aren't even on the bench is interesting, I suppose they could possibly be injured or maybe they're not going well in training compared to the others.
On paper, the bench doesn't look unbelievably strong but we do have Ryan there; Eoghan Mac is a serious goalkeeper, Liam O'Sullivan was good enough to start last year & both Kelliher & Gillane have been going well with the Well, by all accounts.
Tipp will be strong but it should be a very good game.
I'm expecting a huge huge limerick performance
I was right lynch was picked as a forward
I wouldn't have him there but there's a rumor he could be sweeper between their and midfield which would suit him hugely0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »
I was right lynch was picked as a forward
I wouldn't have him there but there's a rumor he could be sweeper between their and midfield which would suit him hugely
Would have thought it was obvious Lynch won't be corner forward.0 -
Not necessarily as teams don't always play a sweeper in fairness as you well knowglasagusban wrote: »Would have thought that was obvious from seeing the team sheet.
And you may or may not know this but he got two goals challenge recently and apparently played full forward line for part of the game0 -
glasagusban wrote: »Would have thought it was obvious Lynch won't be corner forward.
Ye have a great chance
The outstanding absolutely outstanding Cian lynch hope limerick win as he deserves it and it's huge huge boost limerick hurling and after Saturday it is fair to say it's badly needed in limerick hurling0 -
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thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »Not necessarily as teams don't always play a sweeper in fairness as you well know
And you may or may not know this but he got two goals challenge recently and apparently played full forward line for part of the game
That was Ronan Lynch, from half forward. A few weeks back now. Cian Lynch is unlikely to be corner forward but won't be "a sweeper".0
This discussion has been closed.
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