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*Limerick GAA news/discussion thread*
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if any one looks at a divisonal championship game they will see what the quality in limerick is low, when a player is under pressure he reverts from what his coach want him to do, to what he is always used to doing, which is what we saw last sunday, in the u.s they claim a good coach is a con man, because he cons player/players into doing what he/wants them to do not what they want to do, all this is really a reflection on how players are coached from under age up, most sports teams have what is called a program, where teams all play with the one style, so that they can fit into place automatically, kilkenny were the ultimate example of that, munster rugby are starting to develop that also, when you look how they have managed to be sucessfull recently without some of their name players, any team needs a second team, to both make training intensive and put players under pressure to keep their place/gain another playes place
Exactly. If you read Moneyball by Michael Lewis or the Sports Gene by David Epstein it is very, very clear that all athletes revert to what they learn at a very young age when pressure comes on. If you expand the point further, and look at the findings by Kahneman (and Tversky) in the region of behavioural biases you see how difficult for adults to change their behaviour, even when they know the underlying biases they are prone to.
If Limerick want to win an All Ireland, or Munster a European Cup, or Limerick FC a league title, the surest way for them to do it is to invest in underage coaching. Adding skills to an adult's skillset is very difficult for all sorts of reasons, and there's no guarantee those skills will remain when the pressure comes on.
Get coaching right from day one at an underage level and success will eventually follow at senior level. To blame a senior coach for a lack of skills is missing the entire point, imo. It is a coach's job to make the best use of the players at his disposal, and to integrate them into a system that maximises their ability. I still have plenty of faith in John Kiely because I don't think he has anything near as good a squad as the top counties, and he won't have that squad until the young lads (who he is currently playing) fully adapt to the pace of adult hurling. All the young players have been winning at various underage levels (Harty, minor, u21, Fitzgibbon) so hopefully there is actually a decent team coming through. What bothers me is that we still frequently see skills disappear when the games get tight. That indicates that we still haven't really embedded the skills deep enough in the players, and again, that is an underage problem.
Sunday was very poor, but I am used to seeing poor performances from Limerick. It isn't even in the top 5 of disappointing performances in the last few years (Clare in 2013 will haunt me til the crack of doom). Even if a manager gets the right team on the pitch, with the right tactics, he still needs people on the pitch to implement his tactics. He isn't making the decisions on the pitch. He is presumably learning what players can be relied upon and what players can't.
As an aside, for some reason, Irish teams tend to underplay the value of skill and overplay intangible things like "heart", "passion", "fight" etc. It is a big mistake imo. It should never be a question of "skill" or "heart", the best players have both.
Maybe Kiely is the wrong guy for the gig, but to blame him based on Sunday (or what he said after Sunday's game) is still premature. That team was going up against the only team to rattle Tipp last year in the Championship (and still has players who drew with Kilkenny in AI finals), to expect Limerick to win indicates that people weren't making accurate assessments of each team's respective and relative strengths. To refer again to Kahneman and Tversky, people, and players, "revert to the mean". You should not judge yourself by your best day or your worst day but by your average day. The average day for Limerick hurling over the past decade has been pretty average (see what I did there?). The average day for Galway (for comparison) has them going toe to toe with the best sides in the country.
The mean for this Limerick side is considerably lower than the mean for this Galway side. It's Kiely's job to continually improve the side so that their mean is higher. That doesn't happen over the course of a few months (especially when players are also involved in other squads), it happens over the course of years. The mean in Limerick is so low because we've been such a mediocre side for so long.
Limerick hurling, like Munster rugby, prioritised other aspects of the games but the games have now moved on. If Limerick ever wants to win an All Ireland, every club in the county needs to be teaching the right skills from day one.
Worryingly, the current Ardscoil side didn't do all that well this year, our u17's were brushed aside by Cork, our u21 county championship is dominated by one side etc. All that points is that our underage structures aren't as strong as they should be.0 -
The worst wides we hit were after the goal went in when we knew we werent going to win, bad habits. Before that we hit bad wides which were just down to inaccurracy not poor shot selection. Hannon shows signs and being an excellent distributor. Hickey has copped himself on given up the stupid solo's and played good ball when on - there are signs of improvement, its just going to take time, I wont despair yet, but can understand why long serving supporters may have had enough0
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Deleted User wrote: »Exactly. If you read Moneyball by Michael Lewis or the Sports Gene by David Epstein it is very, very clear that all athletes revert to what they learn at a very young age when pressure comes on. If you expand the point further, and look at the findings by Kahneman (and Tversky) in the region of behavioural biases you see how difficult for adults to change their behaviour, even when they know the underlying biases they are prone to.
If Limerick want to win an All Ireland, or Munster a European Cup, or Limerick FC a league title, the surest way for them to do it is to invest in underage coaching. Adding skills to an adult's skillset is very difficult for all sorts of reasons, and there's no guarantee those skills will remain when the pressure comes on.
Get coaching right from day one at an underage level and success will eventually follow at senior level. To blame a senior coach for a lack of skills is missing the entire point, imo. It is a coach's job to make the best use of the players at his disposal, and to integrate them into a system that maximises their ability. I still have plenty of faith in John Kiely because I don't think he has anything near as good a squad as the top counties, and he won't have that squad until the young lads (who he is currently playing) fully adapt to the pace of adult hurling. All the young players have been winning at various underage levels (Harty, minor, u21, Fitzgibbon) so hopefully there is actually a decent team coming through. What bothers me is that we still frequently see skills disappear when the games get tight. That indicates that we still haven't really embedded the skills deep enough in the players, and again, that is an underage problem.
Sunday was very poor, but I am used to seeing poor performances from Limerick. It isn't even in the top 5 of disappointing performances in the last few years (Clare in 2013 will haunt me til the crack of doom). Even if a manager gets the right team on the pitch, with the right tactics, he still needs people on the pitch to implement his tactics. He isn't making the decisions on the pitch. He is presumably learning what players can be relied upon and what players can't.
As an aside, for some reason, Irish teams tend to underplay the value of skill and overplay intangible things like "heart", "passion", "fight" etc. It is a big mistake imo. It should never be a question of "skill" or "heart", the best players have both.
Maybe Kiely is the wrong guy for the gig, but to blame him based on Sunday (or what he said after Sunday's game) is still premature. That team was going up against the only team to rattle Tipp last year in the Championship (and still has players who drew with Kilkenny in AI finals), to expect Limerick to win indicates that people weren't making accurate assessments of each team's respective and relative strengths. To refer again to Kahneman and Tversky, people, and players, "revert to the mean". You should not judge yourself by your best day or your worst day but by your average day. The average day for Limerick hurling over the past decade has been pretty average (see what I did there?). The average day for Galway (for comparison) has them going toe to toe with the best sides in the country.
The mean for this Limerick side is considerably lower than the mean for this Galway side. It's Kiely's job to continually improve the side so that their mean is higher. That doesn't happen over the course of a few months (especially when players are also involved in other squads), it happens over the course of years. The mean in Limerick is so low because we've been such a mediocre side for so long.
Limerick hurling, like Munster rugby, prioritised other aspects of the games but the games have now moved on. If Limerick ever wants to win an All Ireland, every club in the county needs to be teaching the right skills from day one.
Worryingly, the current Ardscoil side didn't do all that well this year, our u17's were brushed aside by Cork, our u21 county championship is dominated by one side etc. All that points is that our underage structures aren't as strong as they should be.
Good post, but:- We got the coaching right at underage around 2000/01/02 and nothing followed at senior level because it was squandered. Poor manager like Kiely will repeat the errors. A county board meeting should be called urgently.
- Remember Wex beat Galway, in Galway. And look what Tipp did to them last week, basically wiped the floor with them.
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Good post, but:
- We got the coaching right at underage around 2000/01/02 and nothing followed at senior level because it was squandered. Poor manager like Kiely will repeat the errors. A county board meeting should be called urgently.
- Remember Wex beat Galway, in Galway. And look what Tipp did to them last week, basically wiped the floor with them.
No, we didn't get the underage coaching right because if we had, we would have been more competitive at underage between 2002 and 2012. We had a freak team that was probably squandered but I think there was other factors (beyond Dave Keane) that limited that squad. I hope we have it right now (Ardscoil this year worries me though it was good to see John the Baptist win at B level) it's too soon to know. We will have it right when Limerick sides are competitive at minor and u21 every year. I don't expect to see them win it every year, but I do think they can be competitive every year.
Re the Wexford Galway game, again, reversion to the mean. Wexford played above themselves and Galway played below themselves in Galway. Last weekend both reverted to their more usual level. The mean thing is interesting because too often we make too much of one off games (semi-final v Kilkenny being a prime example). They are not the standard to judge the team off. It's the nature of the sport's structure unfortunately. It allows for big occasions that distort the average.
Talk of calling meetings indicates (to me at any rate) that you think this squad is better than it is. It is a very callow side and honestly I don't know how anyone expected any more from them than they got. Let's remember, they lost to the only side that rattled Tipp last year (admittedly, they made it easy for Galway). The late goal in Wexford is my biggest criticism of Kiely, he made subs he shouldn't have, imo, but this year is a complete learning curve. Limerick do have a problem with underperforming in must win games, but we've had that since the 1990's imo. It predates Kiely but it's up to him to fix it.
That being said, you're welcome to your view. It's unlikely Kiely will win anything because historically Limerick don't win much. We have something like 1 All Ireland in 75 years. That stat alone tells you how unlikely it is Kiely will win, or anyone else will win with Limerick. Maths and history is against Kiely and Limerick in general. We need much, much more underage success to bring the overall standard of player available to the Limerick management up.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »No, we didn't get the underage coaching right because if we had, we would have been more competitive at underage between 2002 and 2012. We had a freak team that was probably squandered but I think there was other factors (beyond Dave Keane) that limited that squad. I hope we have it right now (Ardscoil this year worries me though it was good to see John the Baptist win at B level) it's too soon to know. We will have it right when Limerick sides are competitive at minor and u21 every year. I don't expect to see them win it every year, but I do think they can be competitive every year.
Re the Wexford Galway game, again, reversion to the mean. Wexford played above themselves and Galway played below themselves in Galway. Last weekend both reverted to their more usual level. The mean thing is interesting because too often we make too much of one off games (semi-final v Kilkenny being a prime example). They are not the standard to judge the team off. It's the nature of the sport's structure unfortunately. It allows for big occasions that distort the average.
Talk of calling meetings indicates (to me at any rate) that you think this squad is better than it is. It is a very callow side and honestly I don't know how anyone expected any more from them than they got. Let's remember, they lost to the only side that rattled Tipp last year (admittedly, they made it easy for Galway). The late goal in Wexford is my biggest criticism of Kiely, he made subs he shouldn't have, imo, but this year is a complete learning curve. Limerick do have a problem with underperforming in must win games, but we've had that since the 1990's imo. It predates Kiely but it's up to him to fix it.
That being said, you're welcome to your view. It's unlikely Kiely will win anything because historically Limerick don't win much. We have something like 1 All Ireland in 75 years. That stat alone tells you how unlikely it is Kiely will win, or anyone else will win with Limerick. Maths and history is against Kiely and Limerick in general. We need much, much more underage success to bring the overall standard of player available to the Limerick management up.
You have a losing attitude. Look at Clare, they've won AIs over the last 25 years. Hadn't won any for the previous 90 odd. Got Loughnane in and he made them winners. Galway have just about the best underage in the country and can't win f*ck all at senior level.
We need to park the excuses and demand success now, not in 3 years time. TJ said he needed time, problem was he got too much time. Now we need more time. If someone doesn't start delivering within 5/6 months I'd sack them.0 -
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You have a losing attitude. Look at Clare, they've won AIs over the last 25 years. Hadn't won any for the previous 90 odd. Got Loughnane in and he made them winners. Galway have just about the best underage in the country and can't win f*ck all at senior level.
We need to park the excuses and demand success now, not in 3 years time. TJ said he needed time, problem was he got too much time. Now we need more time. If someone doesn't start delivering within 5/6 months I'd sack them.
I suspect we just have different views on how success will be achieved.
For me, this panel will be at it's best in 4 or 5 years when the lads like Cian Lynch hit their mid 20's and guys like Casey are established. Loughnane was working with a damn fine set of players too, fwiw.
We will not win by building up expectations after one good game and dashing them at every setback. I think it will be a gradual process tbh. I understand that that is a frustrating viewpoint but it's a realistic one. Our current panel is just so callow. From what I can see, you blame Kiely for the Tipp u21 loss last year. That might be on him, but it's also on the players.*
That being said, I'd love to see us go on a wild run like Clare did in 2013, though even then it is worth remembering they missed most of the big teams after being knocked out of Munster and then beat a fairly ordinary Cork side in the final. If the cards fell that way for us I'd be delighted but statistically it's unlikely. I would also say that that Clare side was better than our current side.
*I actually think that u21 game was lost in much the same manner that Kerry lost the u21 football semi-final at the weekend. The players turned up expecting a different game to the game they got. Jack O'Connor has to take some blame for that but you'll never convince me that that result makes Jack O'Connor a bad manager. It's just one of those things that happens with young sides.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I suspect we just have different views on how success will be achieved.
For me, this panel will be at it's best in 4 or 5 years when the lads like Cian Lynch hit their mid 20's and guys like Casey are established. Loughnane was working with a damn fine set of players too, fwiw.
We will not win by building up expectations after one good game and dashing them at every setback. I think it will be a gradual process tbh. I understand that that is a frustrating viewpoint but it's a realistic one. Our current panel is just so callow. From what I can see, you blame Kiely for the Tipp u21 loss last year. That might be on him, but it's also on the players.*
That being said, I'd love to see us go on a wild run like Clare did in 2013, though even then it is worth remembering they missed most of the big teams after being knocked out of Munster and then beat a fairly ordinary Cork side in the final. If the cards fell that way for us I'd be delighted but statistically it's unlikely. I would also say that that Clare side was better than our current side.
*I actually think that u21 game was lost in much the same manner that Kerry lost the u21 football semi-final at the weekend. The players turned up expecting a different game to the game they got. Jack O'Connor has to take some blame for that but you'll never convince me that that result makes Jack O'Connor a bad manager. It's just one of those things that happens with young sides.
We do.
I like your posts, well read on sport and knowledgeable.
However, the problem I have with your viewpoint is success will probably never come. We aren't very far off the pace. E Cregan made a bad mistake when he took over in 1997, just cleared out a lot of the older heads. Teams need a blend.0 -
We do.
I like your posts, well read on sport and knowledgeable.
However, the problem I have with your viewpoint is success will probably never come. We aren't very far off the pace. E Cregan made a bad mistake when he took over in 1997, just cleared out a lot of the older heads. Teams need a blend.
No, I think success will eventually come, in fact, will inevitably come, if we have gotten the underage structure right. That's all. Everything else is just noise in the system.
The obvious counter argument to that is Galway. As you pointed out, Galway have a great underage system but haven't won an All Ireland in nearly 30 years and historically have won less All Irelands than Limerick (and indeed Dublin and Wexford). To answer that I'd break the era of hurling into different eras, with the modern era starting with the adoption of the backdoor system. Under that system it took time to find a proper home for Galway, where they weren't undercooked going into knock out games. Since they joined the Leinster Championship in 2009 they have been knocking pretty strongly on the door. They are finally in a system that is getting them primed for games at the right time of the season. I expect them to win an AI fairly soon, if they stay in the Leinster Championship. They came close in 2012 and 2015. (I know there's controversy around 2015 but I don't see the need to go into it.) Like I said, last year they rattled Tipp (whereas a 14 man Tipp walked through Limerick, another awful day in recent memory). Galway are agonisingly close to winning it.
Anyhow, it's worth considering what a good underage system would look like. I don't think we're there yet, and we certainly weren't there in the era of the three in a row (because if we had been, we would have had better underage teams between 2002 and 2012, repeating myself I know).
For me,- it means Limerick schools are competitive at Harty level. So far, only Ardscoil are (and that may be waning).
- That Limerick minor sides are competitive (currently we are, though given the u17 result v Cork it's not certain)
- That Limerick u21 sides are competitive (remains to be seen, imo, one All Ireland is only a start after a decade of no success)
- That Limerick colleges are competitive in the Fitzgibbon (very much so, but bolstered by players from other counties).
- Importantly, that the underage club sides are competitive amongst each other. This is a big worry for me. Na Piarsaigh are very dominant.
I'll be happier when other schools are going for the Harty as well as Ardscoil and other sides are challenging na Piarsaigh underage (and challenging because they have gotten better, not that Piarsaigh have gotten worse). From following the various panels, it appears na Piarsaigh are dropping off a bit underage, is this because other clubs are getting better (good news) or na Piarsaigh are getting worse (bad news).
All this feeds into the senior panel. Our current senior panel is just not there yet. It is absolutely vital that the underage production line is continually improved. Let's not forget, we are asking some players who are still u21 to be among our best players. If you look at the recent Club final, Cuala shut Tony Kelly out of the game. I guarantee you Tony Kelly will be a better player for it, but he had to go through it to learn from it. If he comes against the same players in the championship I expect he'll be ready for them. Imo, we don't have anyone near Tony Kelly's standard, not yet, at any rate (and to be fair, Kelly is unreal, so maybe not for years).0 -
Deleted User wrote: »No, I think success will eventually come, in fact, will inevitably come, if we have gotten the underage structure right. That's all. Everything else is just noise in the system.
The obvious counter argument to that is Galway. As you pointed out, Galway have a great underage system but haven't won an All Ireland in nearly 30 years and historically have won less All Irelands than Limerick (and indeed Dublin and Wexford). To answer that I'd break the era of hurling into different eras, with the modern era starting with the adoption of the backdoor system. Under that system it took time to find a proper home for Galway, where they weren't undercooked going into knock out games. Since they joined the Leinster Championship in 2009 they have been knocking pretty strongly on the door. They are finally in a system that is getting them primed for games at the right time of the season. I expect them to win an AI fairly soon, if they stay in the Leinster Championship. They came close in 2012 and 2015. (I know there's controversy around 2015 but I don't see the need to go into it.) Like I said, last year they rattled Tipp (whereas a 14 man Tipp walked through Limerick, another awful day in recent memory). Galway are agonisingly close to winning it.
Anyhow, it's worth considering what a good underage system would look like. I don't think we're there yet, and we certainly weren't there in the era of the three in a row (because if we had been, we would have had better underage teams between 2002 and 2012, repeating myself I know).
For me,- it means Limerick schools are competitive at Harty level. So far, only Ardscoil are (and that may be waning).
- That Limerick minor sides are competitive (currently we are, though given the u17 result v Cork it's not certain)
- That Limerick u21 sides are competitive (remains to be seen, imo, one All Ireland is only a start after a decade of no success)
- That Limerick colleges are competitive in the Fitzgibbon (very much so, but bolstered by players from other counties).
- Importantly, that the underage club sides are competitive amongst each other. This is a big worry for me. Na Piarsaigh are very dominant.
All this feeds into the senior panel. Our current senior panel is just not there yet. It is absolutely vital that the underage production line is continually improved. Let's not forget, we are asking some players who are still u21 to be among our best players. If you look at the recent Club final, Cuala shut Tony Kelly out of the game. I guarantee you Tony Kelly will be a better player for it, but he had to go through it to learn from it. If he comes against the same players in the championship I expect he'll be ready for them. Imo, we don't have anyone near Tony Kelly's standard, not yet, at any rate (and to be fair, Kelly is unreal, so maybe not for years).
Truth in that.
So how long would you give Kiely if there is no visible improvement (results wise) ?0 -
All very good points, we did very little at minor or u21 between 2002 and 2011(apart from getting to the 2005 minor final). At least since then we've been competitive at both and won some honours, that was built on improved performances from are scoil and doon in the harty, we're seeing add scoil come down a bit from those heights, na Piarsigh too at underage aren't as dominant, while that is inevitable hopefully other teams come through such as hospital, castletroy to increase the numbers being exposed to harty cup.Deleted User wrote: »We do.
I like your posts, well read on sport and knowledgeable.
However, the problem I have with your viewpoint is success will probably never come. We aren't very far off the pace. E Cregan made a bad mistake when he took over in 1997, just cleared out a lot of the older heads. Teams need a blend.
No, I think success will eventually come, in fact, will inevitably come, if we have gotten the underage structure right. That's all. Everything else is just noise in the system.
The obvious counter argument to that is Galway. As you pointed out, Galway have a great underage system but haven't won an All Ireland in nearly 30 years and historically have won less All Irelands than Limerick (and indeed Dublin and Wexford). To answer that I'd break the era of hurling into different eras, with the modern era starting with the adoption of the backdoor system. Under that system it took time to find a proper home for Galway, where they weren't undercooked going into knock out games. Since they joined the Leinster Championship in 2009 they have been knocking pretty strongly on the door. They are finally in a system that is getting them primed for games at the right time of the season. I expect them to win an AI fairly soon, if they stay in the Leinster Championship. They came close in 2012 and 2015. (I know there's controversy around 2015 but I don't see the need to go into it.) Like I said, last year they rattled Tipp (whereas a 14 man Tipp walked through Limerick, another awful day in recent memory). Galway are agonisingly close to winning it.
Anyhow, it's worth considering what a good underage system would look like. I don't think we're there yet, and we certainly weren't there in the era of the three in a row (because if we had been, we would have had better underage teams between 2002 and 2012, repeating myself I know).
For me,- it means Limerick schools are competitive at Harty level. So far, only Ardscoil are (and that may be waning).
- That Limerick minor sides are competitive (currently we are, though given the u17 result v Cork it's not certain)
- That Limerick u21 sides are competitive (remains to be seen, imo, one All Ireland is only a start after a decade of no success)
- That Limerick colleges are competitive in the Fitzgibbon (very much so, but bolstered by players from other counties).
- Importantly, that the underage club sides are competitive amongst each other. This is a big worry for me. Na Piarsaigh are very dominant.
I'll be happier when other schools are going for the Harty as well as Ardscoil and other sides are challenging na Piarsaigh underage (and challenging because they have gotten better, not that Piarsaigh have gotten worse). From following the various panels, it appears na Piarsaigh are dropping off a bit underage, is this because other clubs are getting better (good news) or na Piarsaigh are getting worse (bad news).
All this feeds into the senior panel. Our current senior panel is just not there yet. It is absolutely vital that the underage production line is continually improved. Let's not forget, we are asking some players who are still u21 to be among our best players. If you look at the recent Club final, Cuala shut Tony Kelly out of the game. I guarantee you Tony Kelly will be a better player for it, but he had to go through it to learn from it. If he comes against the same players in the championship I expect he'll be ready for them. Imo, we don't have anyone near Tony Kelly's standard, not yet, at any rate (and to be fair, Kelly is unreal, so maybe not for years).
At club level seeing mungret, monaleen, Garryspillane coming through at underage has been good, just not hopefully because the traditional teams have dropped off.
If we are producing teams at underage that are competitive and get a few games, and wins, at croke park then the players will come through. It takes time though and patience, we should be starting to reap rewards next year and 2019, if not then the manager should come under pressure.
The key is to keep the conveyor belt going at underage.0 -
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Truth in that.
So how long would you give Kiely if there is no visible improvement (results wise) ?
Firstly, before judging any manager I think it's important to have realistic appraisal of where the team is at. We have not been genuine All Ireland contenders since the mid 1990's. That team was a great team. I could list off the litany of reasons things went south afterwards but why bother, it wouldn't change the fact that we have only won one Munster title in the last 20 years. In fact, since the win in 1996, we have won one other Munster championship, Clare have won 2, Waterford have won 4, Cork have won 6 and Tipp have won 7. We are not a powerhouse that is winning every other year and we should temper our expectations accordingly.
What we are is a county with massive potential, but to realise that potential we need to develop actual quality players. Again, that has to happen at underage. You do not easily add skills to an adult's skillset.
So, if we continue to see an improvement at underage level, I would expect this panel to be very competitive in 4 or 5 years. That assumes that players stay focused in the interim, which is no sure thing. From Kiely's tenure I expect to see the panel gradually grow into being a senior team. I don't really expect any major results this year or next tbh.
Now, due to the structure of the Championship one-off performances can occur. I don't think it's impossible for this panel to go and beat a big side in a one off game and I hope it happens, but I have my doubts they could string a series of big results together. If you look at Clare in 2013, they walked past us in the semi-final and saved their real big game for the replay (having come through the qualifiers). They very nearly lost the first All-Ireland match, and that was against a fairly limited Cork side. The same could happen with this Limerick side, but I can't see them doing what Tipp did last year (which was to demolish everyone bar Galway).
I'll criticise Kiely if the current panel goes out of the Championship to a very poor side, or to a side at around the standard as us without it being a close game. But even at that, I think we need to be realistic as to where this panel and Limerick hurling is at.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Firstly, before judging any manager I think it's important to have realistic appraisal of where the team is at. We have not been genuine All Ireland contenders since the mid 1990's. That team was a great team. I could list off the litany of reasons things went south afterwards but why bother, it wouldn't change the fact that we have only won one Munster title in the last 20 years. In fact, since the win in 1996, we have won one other Munster championship, Clare have won 2, Waterford have won 4, Cork have won 6 and Tipp have won 7. We are not a powerhouse that is winning every other year and we should temper our expectations accordingly.
What we are is a county with massive potential, but to realise that potential we need to develop actual quality players. Again, that has to happen at underage. You do not easily add skills to an adult's skillset.
So, if we continue to see an improvement at underage level, I would expect this panel to be very competitive in 4 or 5 years. That assumes that players stay focused in the interim, which is no sure thing. From Kiely's tenure I expect to see the panel gradually grow into being a senior team. I don't really expect any major results this year or next tbh.
Now, due to the structure of the Championship one-off performances can occur. I don't think it's impossible for this panel to go and beat a big side in a one off game and I hope it happens, but I have my doubts they could string a series of big results together. If you look at Clare in 2013, they walked past us in the semi-final and saved their real big game for the replay (having come through the qualifiers). They very nearly lost the first All-Ireland match, and that was against a fairly limited Cork side. The same could happen with this Limerick side, but I can't see them doing what Tipp did last year (which was to demolish everyone bar Galway).
I'll criticise Kiely if the current panel goes out of the Championship to a very poor side, or to a side at around the standard as us without it being a close game. But even at that, I think we need to be realistic as to where this panel and Limerick hurling is at.
But you'd never fire a manager.
We must remember TJ got stick, and rightly so, but no poor team beat us under him, nor did we come 3rd in the league.
A poor championship (loss to Clare and not make a semi) and flop in the league next year and he should be sacked. But I'd like to see Daly drafted in now to help, bit like O Grady & TJ.Cork beat Tipp and Limerick beat Cork in Cork, trying to argue form lines based on League results is futile at best.
Did the Div 1a teams take those games seriously? I thought Cork would beat us, I must say.0 -
Did the Div 1a teams take those games seriously? I thought Cork would beat us, I must say.
I think the point to take is that every team has different objectives and targets this time of the year and each individual result can only really be looked at in isolation.
For the Wexford v Galway game for example, Wexford had that targeted for months and had the training done, it was a game that would effictively define their season, for Galway they were only just back training and it was fairly far down the list of priorities.
Similarly Cork beat a Tipp team who were already qualified and already guaranteed top spot, its a cliche but the league is the league and not a time for assessment or judgement, now if the championship is equally as disapointing then the league can be added to the fuel if you like but as a stand alone doesn't wash with me.0 -
I think the point to take is that every team has different objectives and targets this time of the year and each individual result can only really be looked at in isolation.
For the Wexford v Galway game for example, Wexford had that targeted for months and had the training done, it was a game that would effictively define their season, for Galway they were only just back training and it was fairly far down the list of priorities.
Similarly Cork beat a Tipp team who were already qualified and already guaranteed top spot, its a cliche but the league is the league and not a time for assessment or judgement, now if the championship is equally as disapointing then the league can be added to the fuel if you like but as a stand alone doesn't wash with me.
No.
Both Limk & Galway targeted promotion. Wex are delighted with their season already, whereas ours is a failure unless Kiely pulls a most unlikely rabbit out of the hat. Galway failed badly too, as Galway usually do when there's a bit of pressure on them. But they have rectified it a bit now, whereas we fell to one of the most depressing defeats I've ever seen. Reminds me of the collapse v Tipp in the AI semi in 09.0 -
why is the manager the fall guy, always, it is easy to blame him, if them on the field had half the calibre of the hurlers on the ditch, we would be sucessful, it was mentioned by some one that when the goal was scored the heads went down, this is prevelant in under age teams, the stats speak for themselves, one cannot make a silk purse from a sows earYou have a losing attitude. Look at Clare, they've won AIs over the last 25 years. Hadn't won any for the previous 90 odd. Got Loughnane in and he made them winners. Galway have just about the best underage in the country and can't win f*ck all at senior level.
We need to park the excuses and demand success now, not in 3 years time. TJ said he needed time, problem was he got too much time. Now we need more time. If someone doesn't start delivering within 5/6 months I'd sack them.0 -
why is the manager the fall guy, always, it is easy to blame him, if them on the field had half the calibre of the hurlers on the ditch, we would be sucessful, it was mentioned by some one that when the goal was scored the heads went down, this is prevelant in under age teams, the stats speak for themselves, one cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear
Because he's the guy that's getting paid. He's the guy with the answers. But all I'm seeing are blanks.0 -
look at the way limerick were bullied by wexford, limerick are a small light team, most with no constant experience of senior hurling, in fact i would say that most of the club teams would not make senior status in any of the top five countys, any coach looks at what he/she has, they they have to see what they can do with then, then they have to decide on what style of play the are going to go with, then they have to look for balance in the team, on top of all this we have a meddlesome co.boardNo.
Both Limk & Galway targeted promotion. Wex are delighted with their season already, whereas ours is a failure unless Kiely pulls a most unlikely rabbit out of the hat. Galway failed badly too, as Galway usually do when there's a bit of pressure on them. But they have rectified it a bit now, whereas we fell to one of the most depressing defeats I've ever seen. Reminds me of the collapse v Tipp in the AI semi in 09.0 -
the reason you are seeing blanks are, thats the ammo which he has been supplied with, no coach can make a winning team without 13 quality players, can any limerick supporter say thatBecause he's the guy that's getting paid. He's the guy with the answers. But all I'm seeing are blanks.0 -
a question for yese, why did davy fitz go past the ballysimon roundabout not once but twice, i claimed back in the day that the first time he did was a massive mistake by the co.board, i have heard since his opinion was the money was plentyfull in limerick, but the standard of players was not up to winning anything, perhaps my info was/is wrong0
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Are you saying that Na Piarsigh, all Ireland champs in 2016 and multiple Munster champs, kilmallock Munster champs 2015, patrickswell wouldn't be a senior team in Kilkenny, tipp etc.! Of all the theories that's the most outlandish, the limerick club championship is no better or worse than most of the top counties, that's not the reason the limerick team are not going well anyway. There's a big drop off from top 3 or 4 club teams to the rest in nearly all counties in Ireland. Others some very dodgy senior teams in tipp, doesn't seem to do the tipp team any harm.
look at the way limerick were bullied by wexford, limerick are a small light team, most with no constant experience of senior hurling, in fact i would say that most of the club teams would not make senior status in any of the top five countys, any coach looks at what he/she has, they they have to see what they can do with then, then they have to decide on what style of play the are going to go with, then they have to look for balance in the team, on top of all this we have a meddlesome co.boardNo.
Both Limk & Galway targeted promotion. Wex are delighted with their season already, whereas ours is a failure unless Kiely pulls a most unlikely rabbit out of the hat. Galway failed badly too, as Galway usually do when there's a bit of pressure on them. But they have rectified it a bit now, whereas we fell to one of the most depressing defeats I've ever seen. Reminds me of the collapse v Tipp in the AI semi in 09.0 -
the reason you are seeing blanks are, thats the ammo which he has been supplied with, no coach can make a winning team without 13 quality players, can any limerick supporter say that
Rubbish, he was brought in because it was felt TJ wasn't doing enough with the quality of player at this disposal. We may as well get you in with your attitude, but you'd be probably be as successful as the current manager. :mad:a question for yese, why did davy fitz go past the ballysimon roundabout not once but twice, i claimed back in the day that the first time he did was a massive mistake by the co.board, i have heard since his opinion was the money was plentyfull in limerick, but the standard of players was not up to winning anything, perhaps my info was/is wrong
Complete rubbish. We've better players than Wex. But he has a plan that works. That said he'll win nothing with Wex.0 -
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You are stating that as fact?? Don't see it myself, pretty much 50/50 if I was to pick a 15 from the two.
Well Fitz has brought them on. When Kiely/Fitz got their respective jobs, Limerick would have been considered far better. Kiely is taking Limk backwards, and Fitz bringing Wex forwards, so it would be close now.
Hence, why I'm calling for his head. A serious liability.0 -
Well Fitz has brought them on. When Kiely/Fitz got their respective jobs, Limerick would have been considered far better. Kiely is taking Limk backwards, and Fitz bringing Wex forwards, so it would be close now.
Hence, why I'm calling for his head. A serious liability.
By who?
This is my whole point, the perception that Kiely is doing a terrible job is based on an inflated opinion of the Limerick teams true ability, and to be honest I have no idea where that notion has come from.
How has Kiely taken Limerick backwards when they haven't played a championship match under his tenure, get a grip man, you may very well be proven right but putting the knife in before the ball is thrown in is hardly fair.0 -
By who?
This is my whole point, the perception that Kiely is doing a terrible job is based on an inflated opinion of the Limerick teams true ability, and to be honest I have no idea where that notion has come from.
How has Kiely taken Limerick backwards when they haven't played a championship match under his tenure, get a grip man, you may very well be proven right but putting the knife in before the ball is thrown in is hardly fair.
League odds were:
Galway 4/5
Limk 5/4
Wex 7/1
Wex hadn't beaten Limk for years. Clearly a big gap up until now.0 -
League odds were:
Galway 4/5
Limk 5/4
Wex 7/1
Wex hadn't beaten Limk for years. Clearly a big gap up until now.
Bookies odds are hardly a barometer for a true reflection of players ability.
Wexford haven't played Limerick in Championship since 2014, there were 5 Wexford players playing that day that will be playing this year and 4 of those were only new on the panel, what has happened historically or in the league is completely irrelevant.0 -
Bookies odds are hardly a barometer for a true reflection of players ability.
Wexford haven't played Limerick in Championship since 2014, there were 5 Wexford players playing that day that will be playing this year and 4 of those were only new on the panel, what has happened historically or in the league is completely irrelevant.
They are. Tipp are top of the odds at the moment, and for a very good reason.
Wex haven't beaten Limk since the formation of the 1 B league.
We demolished them by 16 points in the U21 final.
We have the players, no question about that. It is something else that is wrong.0 -
By who?
This is my whole point, the perception that Kiely is doing a terrible job is based on an inflated opinion of the Limerick teams true ability, and to be honest I have no idea where that notion has come from.
How has Kiely taken Limerick backwards when they haven't played a championship match under his tenure, get a grip man, you may very well be proven right but putting the knife in before the ball is thrown in is hardly fair.
Limerick's squad is a work in progress, quite clearly. I actually think it's verging on unfair on the players to expect them to be winning all around them yet, some of them are barely shaving.0 -
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are the teams you mention playing their own standard of team with any regularity, they usuall win the county easily enough, they have a kind of a bye into the provencial championships, look at our football teams, has liam keirns achived the same ressults with them as he has with tipp, by your facts he should have, the problem is he did notAre you saying that Na Piarsigh, all Ireland champs in 2016 and multiple Munster champs, kilmallock Munster champs 2015, patrickswell wouldn't be a senior team in Kilkenny, tipp etc.! Of all the theories that's the most outlandish, the limerick club championship is no better or worse than most of the top counties, that's not the reason the limerick team are not going well anyway. There's a big drop off from top 3 or 4 club teams to the rest in nearly all counties in Ireland. Others some very dodgy senior teams in tipp, doesn't seem to do the tipp team any harm.0
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