*Limerick GAA news/discussion thread*

Mehapoy

Mehapoy wrote: »

More concerning than u17, which was a bit of a farce, has been performances at u14, 15 and 16s at the various tournament's the last 2 or 3 years, this year the u14s were hammered by both Laois and Kilkenny, now the academy training may be able to make up some of the deficiencies by the time these players are 16 but you'd have to be concerned about what the clubs are producing, is it because competitions have been done away with at u12? Limerick have an awful habit of producing one good underage team now and then, and then wonder when they don't win a senior all Ireland against teams made up of 10 years of good underage teams. The county board need someone like eibhir o'dea in to look at the underage again or we'll slip even further down the pecking order. How a supposedly well resourced system can be so poor is beyond me but it is the limerick county board so shouldn't be surprised.

HurlingRanker wrote: »

I'd agree our underage is something we can't afford to get complacent on, we've generally been competitive but only the one All-Ireland in recent years to show for it, maybe another to come this weekend, Waterford have two but more importantly they have been more successful so far in terms of integrating those players into the senior panel. Good and all as some of our minor teams and Ardscoil Rís teams have been, the All-Ireland has eluded them. We beat Waterford in the 2013 and 2014 Munster finals - neither of those teams won the All-Ireland, but Waterford did in 2013.

We're about three years behind Waterford in terms of development, there are parallels between their 2014 and our 2017 seasons, both disappointing but very much focused on integrating young players to the panel. Whether we push on and become a solid top 3/4 team like they have remains to be seen.

But we can't drop the ball in underage development, there's been a lot of back slapping and self congratulation from our county board in the last few years, need to keep that work going and do more. Save the congratulations until we actually start transforming top quality underage talent into top quality senior talent, we never got the best out of the potential we had from the 2000-02 under 21's, that could very easily happen all over again.

Exactly lads. It's actually astonishing to me that people in this thread think we have the underage structures sorted.

There is no real excuse for bad underage skills, you either get it right there or you spend a lifetime trying to fix it. Every great team in a sport (Kerry football, Kilkenny hurling, the All Blacks, Germany in football) prioritise teaching their underage sides the right skills, right back to the earliest age grades. Jim McGuinness has written about how his club completely overhauled their underage coaching when they realised that the skill gap with Kerry players went right back to u10's, u12's etc. They used to think Kerry footballers were just "better", then they realised that Kerry were better because they'd been coached better all the way up.

Coaching the right skills in any sport starts at day one but imo in Ireland we struggle with this (not just Limerick hurling, but Irish rugby and Irish football struggles with it too).

Rightwing

HurlingRanker wrote: »

You keep peddling this apostles nonsense, it's in your head and nowhere else. You really don't take kindly to anyone disagreeing with your "Kiely is the worst manager in the history of sport and I can't wait to quote this post months down the line to say I told you so to all of you" agenda even though not too many have hailed him as the messiah in the way you are implying.

The simple fact of the matter is you WANT Kiely to fail, just so you can come back quoting your posts hailing yourself as some kind of genius.

Others prefer to actually support the guy. Give him a fair chance and actually root for him. You do nothing but knock him and stick the knife in, and it gets boring real fast. We do not have a top 6 panel right now, far from it. It's his job to get a young panel up to that level and beyond. No manager in the country would have taken us from where we were a year ago to the semi finals this year. Our panel is nowhere near that level yet, but some people expect John Kiely to be some kind of miracle worker.

For what it's worth, the players I know on the panel are happy with Kiely, but are disappointed with how 2017 went. They don't blame management for that and all involved are on the same page in terms of this being very much year one of what they hope to be at the very least a three year project. They are anxious to do better next year and fully believe they will.

The only discontent this year was with Barry Nash, but it's no great secret that he can be a tricky lad to handle, and Kiely dealt well with that situation, leaving the door open to welcome him back with open arms when some managers would have happily slammed that door firmly shut. And sure enough he returned without any drama later on.

2017 was disappointing but any appraisal must be grounded in the reality that our 2011-2016 team is a spent force, and we desperately need to get the new generation up to speed as quickly as possible. This was only ever going to be a transitional year, the benchmark has been set now, it was a disappointing year but progress is a must next year. Judge him on next season. 1B promotion may be beyond us as it will require going up to Galway and beating them in Salthill. Championship- quarter finals the absolute minimum, hopefully semi's.

Anyone whose expectations are beyond that needs a serious reality check.

Only fact is he is flopping and flopping badly. Dub gave Cunningham his full term, what a great idea was. :rolleyes: I don't support losers. I'm for sacking them straight away.

Hopefully he will do what TJ Ryan did and walks away next when year after another shambolic year.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

I'd either sack Kiely or at a minimum I'd bring in A Daly to help out. He has proven himself at this level.

Just going back to this point, how would you rate how Daly did over Limerick's Academy as director of coaching? You were praising the underage structures so perhaps you can tell us why the results have been poor.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

Just going back to this point, how would you rate how Daly did over Limerick's Academy as director of coaching? You were praising the underage structures so perhaps you can tell us why the results have been poor.

We've had very good success in recent years, that's why I don't buy the bullsh!t that Kiely has nothing to work with. He has AI material. Someone from Hong Kong couldn't have done worse FFS.

To answer your question, he is no loss. Wallace was a loss. That's the difference, and that's where the county board need to be held accountable.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

We've had very good success in recent years, that's why I don't buy the bullsh!t that Kiely has nothing to work with. He has AI material. Someone from Hong Kong couldn't have done worse FFS.

To answer your question, he is no loss. Wallace was a loss. That's the difference, and that's where the county board need to be held accountable.

So a guy you admit is no loss to Limerick is someone you wanted helping Kiely out back in April. Class.

Our u21's will be doing well to beat Kilkenny this weekend, I don't see how any could think our senior team could win an All-Ireland at the minute tbh.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

So a guy you admit is no loss to Limerick is someone you wanted helping Kiely out back in April. Class.

Our u21's will be doing well to beat Kilkenny this weekend, I don't see how any could think our senior team could win an All-Ireland at the minute tbh.

A lot of GAA folk are farmers and mightn't be well ( ), hence I understand why people think kiely is great.

I said bring Daly in at that level. Not underage level. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

To simplify: Daly is proven at senior level, and unproven at underage level. Rightwing would have given him the job at senior level, not underage. County board did the opposite and the results speak for themselves at both ends.

I agree we'll do well to beat KK. We have a good blend of players age wise. Last 3 years we've regressed.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

A lot of GAA folk are farmers and mightn't be well ( ), hence I understand why people think kiely is great.

I said bring Daly in at that level. Not underage level. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

To simplify: Daly is proven at senior level, and unproven at underage level. Rightwing would have given him the job at senior level, not underage. County board did the opposite and the results speak for themselves at both ends.

I agree we'll do well to beat KK. We have a good blend of players age wise. Last 3 years we've regressed.

Now, now, no need to insult the fair farmers of Limerick just because you're wrong more often than right.

Just yesterday you said things were good underage in Limerick, results, u21 aside, this year show they aren't. Limerick hurling still has serious structural problems. Kiely, good or bad, can only work with what he's given. Most of what he's given isn't good enough, imo, at least, good enough yet.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

Now, now, no need to insult the fair farmers of Limerick just because you're wrong more often than right.

Just yesterday you said things were good underage in Limerick, results, u21 aside, this year show they aren't. Limerick hurling still has serious structural problems. Kiely, good or bad, can only work with what he's given. Most of what he's given isn't good enough, imo, at least, good enough yet.

They are good, U21 success 2 years ago, in the final now. Good players like Dowling/Hannon/HickeyQuaid/Ryan to help out the younger players such as Byrnes/Hayes/Lynch/Finn/Nash/Lynch. We need to park the excuses.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

They are good, U21 success 2 years ago, in the final now. Good players like Dowling/Hannon/HickeyQuaid/Ryan to help out the younger players such as Byrnes/Hayes/Lynch/Finn/Nash/Lynch. We need to park the excuses.

A good team doesn't mean a good structure. For all we know we just got lucky with that u21 team.

Seriously, check out the underage results this year below minor, they are not good. Ardscoil dropped off a bit last year too. You know the theory of reversion to the mean, perhaps it is applying here. Limerick underage is reverting to the mean of being reasonably poor.

As a simple exercise, why not mentally list out your team of the season open to players all counties. How many counties do you have to exclude before you start to see Limerick players appear? Now do the same for the best team of the last 5 years. Again, how many counties do you have to exclude to see a few Limerick players in there. The panel just isn't good enough.

Who in the Limerick panel do you think has been the best hurler in his position in the country for the last 5 years? Is there anyone? How about in the last 3 years? It's slim pickings. Objectively that's the case because our players just aren't that good yet.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

A good team doesn't mean a good structure. For all we know we just got lucky with that u21 team.

Seriously, check out the underage results this year below minor, they are not good. Ardscoil dropped off a bit last year too. You know the theory of reversion to the mean, perhaps it is applying here. Limerick underage is reverting to the mean of being reasonably poor.

As a simple exercise, why not mentally list out your team of the season open to players all counties. How many counties do you have to exclude before you start to see Limerick players appear? Now do the same for the best team of the last 5 years. Again, how many counties do you have to exclude to see a few Limerick players in there. The panel just isn't good enough.

Who in the Limerick panel do you think has been the best hurler in his position in the country for the last 5 years? Is there anyone? How about in the last 3 years? It's slim pickings. Objectively that's the case because our players just aren't that good yet.

Look at Cork, nowhere for years at underage, yet they win Munster and get to a semi final. We need to capitalise on the players we have right now, not in 5 years time, now.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

Look at Cork, nowhere for years at underage, yet they win Munster and get to a semi final. We need to capitalise on the players we have right now, not in 5 years time, now.

That isn't really answering the question though, how many Limerick players are the best in the country in their position? Hell, how many are even second or third best?

Over the last decade, the team that wins the All Ireland has several of the best players in the country in any given year. We just don't have that quality.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

That isn't really answering the question though, how many Limerick players are the best in the country in their position? Hell, how many are even second or third best?

Over the last decade, the team that wins the All Ireland has several of the best players in the country in any given year. We just don't have that quality.

You don't need to be the best to win. You need to be well managed. Cork/Wex are prime examples. Wex won 1b whilst we were talking down our players.

flutered

i suggest that the under age coaching set up need a kick up the rear, the same coaches from day one, in my area anyway, no accountability is expected from them, but there is from any senior manager, they continue to provide little or nothing to the senior grade, again my mantra of little or no game time is the problem, the idea of training with their club is good enough is not feasible, as they are doing the same things for the same guy with the chance of testing out these drills in game time, one can practice and drill until the end of time, but until it is tried out in the heat of game time it matters not a whit

flutered

Rightwing wrote: »

You don't need to be the best to win. You need to be well managed. Cork/Wex are prime examples. Wex won 1b whilst we were talking down our players.

the best win, did either win an ai, what has wexford won, cork got a munster final by beatin a tipp team who were in turmoil, if any team got the draw that tipp got they would have met defeat by galway in the ai simi final, medioricty never won anything, also never will

flutered

Rightwing wrote: »

Look at Cork, nowhere for years at underage, yet they win Munster and get to a semi final. We need to capitalise on the players we have right now, not in 5 years time, now.

won munster by beating a tem in turmoil over a socialing problem

flutered

Rightwing wrote: »

They are good, U21 success 2 years ago, in the final now. Good players like Dowling/Hannon/HickeyQuaid/Ryan to help out the younger players such as Byrnes/Hayes/Lynch/Finn/Nash/Lynch. We need to park the excuses.

i am glad that for one i can agree with you, on your use of the term good players, as you did not mention limerick having any great players, how many of the present limerick team would get their place on either the galway or waterford team, answers on the back of a stamp

Rightwing

flutered wrote: »

won munster by beating a tem in turmoil over a socialing problem

They beat Tipp/Waterford/Clare. Nothing wrong with that.

Weren't you of of the apostles saying you can't an AI from 1b, well that theory along with all your others is rubbished.

flutered

Rightwing wrote: »

A lot of GAA folk are farmers and mightn't be well ( ), hence I understand why people think kiely is great.

I said bring Daly in at that level. Not underage level. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

To simplify: Daly is proven at senior level, and unproven at underage level. Rightwing would have given him the job at senior level, not underage. County board did the opposite and the results speak for themselves at both ends.

I agree we'll do well to beat KK. We have a good blend of players age wise. Last 3 years we've regressed.

to say the muckers are not well gives me a good laugh, just look at how decimater that sector is, they are similat to limerick have good hurlers, there are not many of either, kiley is a teacher, who was raised in a pub, how many of the team have farming backgrounds

flutered

is wallace posting under the username rightwing

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

You don't need to be the best to win. You need to be well managed. Cork/Wex are prime examples. Wex won 1b whilst we were talking down our players.

Just list the players you think Limerick have that are the best in the country in their position. Shouldn't be hard, you think they can win an All Ireland.

HurlingRanker

Deleted User wrote: »

Just list the players you think Limerick have that are the best in the country in their position. Shouldn't be hard, you think they can win an All Ireland.

He's like a politician on this question, avoid and dance around it at all costs rather than just give the obvious answer.

It's no great secret that the vast majority of underage players don't fulfill their apparent potential at underage level. I don't know why anyone would latch on to our under 21 win of 2015 and the present 21's who let's not forget, were also favourites to beat Kilkenny in the 2014 minor final.

And look at Cork, excluding their minors this year, no underage success recently, yet still producing more ready made seniors than us at the moment despite our relative superiority over them in the last 5/6 years underage.

Look at a fella like Cian Lynch, all the ability and all the talent in the world, but, no hurling brain. No look hand passes, passing the ball over his shoulder, laying the ball off when he's worked himself into space and time to pick off a point, running into traffic after delaying the off load for too long, he's an incredibly frustrating player. He can do exciting things, can be an absolute joy to watch but he'll have you tearing your hair out in equal measure.

I'll take a Donal O'Grady every day of the week over a Cian Lynch. O'Grady may not have been the most spectacular to watch, but he was tidy and so intelligent, he knew where to be, he almost always did the right thing when he got the ball, kept things alive, and the ultimate team player. He never stood out all that much at underage but it's no coincidence he was by some distance the last one standing of the 2000-2002 under 21 cohort.

Anyway, point being, underage performances count for absolutely nothing. I'm not completely writing Lynch off, he's young enough to come good, but I'm just deeply concerned. Was there any excitement or raving about a 18 year old Donal O'Grady? Things like speed of thought and ability to read the game are difficult to coach, and come with experience. Some players (and people in general) are better at learning these things than others, and some sadly just never will learn full stop.

HurlingRanker

HurlingRanker wrote: »

He's like a politician on this question, avoid and dance around it at all costs rather than just give the obvious answer.

It's no great secret that the vast majority of underage players don't fulfill their apparent potential at underage level. I don't know why anyone would latch on to our under 21 win of 2015 and the present 21's who let's not forget, were also favourites to beat Kilkenny in the 2014 minor final.

And look at Cork, excluding their minors this year, no underage success recently, yet still producing more ready made seniors than us at the moment despite our relative superiority over them in the last 5/6 years underage.

Look at a fella like Cian Lynch, all the ability and all the talent in the world, but, no hurling brain. No look hand passes, passing the ball over his shoulder, laying the ball off when he's worked himself into space and time to pick off a point, running into traffic after delaying the off load for too long, he's an incredibly frustrating player. He can do exciting things, can be an absolute joy to watch but he'll have you tearing your hair out in equal measure.

I'll take a Donal O'Grady every day of the week over a Cian Lynch. O'Grady may not have been the most spectacular to watch, but he was tidy and so intelligent, he knew where to be, he almost always did the right thing when he got the ball, kept things alive, and the ultimate team player. He never stood out all that much at underage but it's no coincidence he was by some distance the last one standing of the 2000-2002 under 21 cohort.

Anyway, point being, underage performances count for absolutely nothing. I'm not completely writing Lynch off, he's young enough to come good, but I'm just deeply concerned. Was there any excitement or raving about a 18 year old Donal O'Grady? Things like speed of thought and ability to read the game are difficult to coach, and come with experience. Some players (and people in general) are better at learning these things than others, and some sadly just never will learn full stop.

any fan of sport should pick up Michael Lewis' Moneyball book. It's much better than the film. He sets out quite clearly why underage success frequently doesn't translate into senior success. For Limerick, the best guarantee of senior success isn't a limited amount of underage success but rather continual underage success where you accept very few of the players are going to be top senior players. Of course, the path to success in hurling is much shorter than the path to success in professional baseball.

I don't feel the need to make an assessment of Cian Lynch yet. He's still a very young guy. Personally I think he's over-criticised and over-praised but that is the nature of underage teams, and maybe all teams in a success starved county (look at Joe Canning's treatment over the years).

Fwiw, I think it's very hard for a player like Lynch to be the stand-out guy for Mary I in Feb/March and also be the stand-out guy for Limerick later in the year. I think Tony Kelly suffered for Clare this year from Ballyea's campaign by comparison. Too much hurling over too long a season or something.

Rightwing

You are missing the key point. Very good players will become average under poor management. This is why I place such a high emphasis on getting management right. Get a bluffer in and the best will become average. TJ was a bluffer, and Kiely is a bluffer. Hence, we haven't won a game of note between them.

Now, on the U 21s, in a way I was pleased we had such a disastrous summer at senior level. Players would be burnt out with rubbish programmes. Should be much fresher now.

flutered

Rightwing wrote: »

You are missing the key point. Very good players will become average under poor management. This is why I place such a high emphasis on getting management right. Get a bluffer in and the best will become average. TJ was a bluffer, and Kiely is a bluffer. Hence, we haven't won a game of note between them.

Now, on the U 21s, in a way I was pleased we had such a disastrous summer at senior level. Players would be burnt out with rubbish programmes. Should be much fresher now.

good players never become average, they remain what they are, average players never become great players, they will improve ok, btw how many of the greyhounds bred become winners, how many coolmore bred foals recieve a name at two years, the number of first class players will never raise in limerick, the top players have many sports coaches knocking on their door, from the a-z in the sports spectrum, look at dublin, the amount of time and money spent on dublin hurling is immense, they have the numbers beyond any other countys wildest dreams, what have they won, as usual answers on the back of a stamp

Rightwing

flutered wrote: »

good players never become average, they remain what they are, average players never become great players, they will improve ok, btw how many of the greyhounds bred become winners, how many coolmore bred foals recieve a name at two years, the number of first class players will never raise in limerick, the top players have many sports coaches knocking on their door, from the a-z in the sports spectrum, look at dublin, the amount of time and money spent on dublin hurling is immense, they have the numbers beyond any other countys wildest dreams, what have they won, as usual answers on the back of a stamp

I'm unsure what you know about greyhounds, but you know SFA about the topic in hand. No question about that.

paddy no 11

Same team and bench, would have liked to see changes but they know best...........Just hope if someone is being cleaned out that they make changes not before its too late

mickmackey1

Team:



6 survivors from two years ago; Finn, Nash, Ryan, Morrissey & the Lynches. Casey & ALTC came off the bench. Here's to Title No 6 :cool:

Rightwing

We've a poor record in finals in recent years, but oddly enough have won 5/5 in this competition, maybe because they are not played in Croker.

An impressive front 6 in particular, but overall quite a good team. Weather conditions not to be great, but no excuses, I think we will win, and with a bit to spare if we play to potential

pajoguy

Cian Lynch to have fitness test at 10.30 apparently. That cant be good.

Spudmonkey

Delighted with that win. Drifted off a bit in the second half and was starting to get worried when Kilkenny ate into the 8 point lead but a couple of extra points at the end made it a little more comfortable. Hanley won some great balls out around the middle.