Whats the legality on driving a motor bike?

oxygen

Im not sure, is it 250 for two years while you hold the learner license? I have a provisional car driving license.

What I had in mind was to get a 500 or 600cc bike and restrict it to 250cc for the two years Im on the learner licence. Then when/if I pass my test, I just need to take the restrictors off to have a full 500/600 CC bike.

This would allow me to take the Giants Causeway motorbike tour in Northern Ireland this year, and progress onto a decent European tour when I have more engine capacity. Do I have this right?

thanks

Henry Ford III

Not sure I understand you 100% but I'm pretty sure you cannot drive outside Eire on a provisional license at any time.

Del2005

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Im not sure, is it 250 for two years while you hold the learner license? I have a provisional car driving license.

What I had in mind was to get a 500 or 600cc bike and restrict it to 250cc for the two years Im on the learner licence. Then when/if I pass my test, I just need to take the restrictors off to have a full 500/600 CC bike.

You can ride any bike you like once it's less the 33bhp/25kw or 0.16kw/kg. It's not restricted by CC. Most bikes can be restricted.

Once you pass your test, and get your full licence, you are restricted for 2 years before you can ride a full power bike. The time restriction is from the time you get your licence not when you pass the test

This would allow me to take the Giants Causeway motorbike tour in Northern Ireland this year, and progress onto a decent European tour when I have more engine capacity. Do I have this right?

thanks

As Henry said a Learners Permit doesn't let you ride outside the Republic. You can only drive outside the republic when you have a full licence(restricted or unrestricted)

Edit/

Just noticed you said you have a car permit. You can't ride any bikes on that. You need to do a theory test for an A permit, get some lessons and apply for you A test.

oxygen

Ah I see. Sorry, for some reason,it slipped my mind the Giants Causeway wasnt in the Republic. Anyways, regarding the law so, as per http://www.msa-ireland.com/licenses.htm

"for 2 years afterwards of 25Kw/34bhp. or a power to weight ratio of less than 0.16kW per kg"

So something like a Honda GL CL 400 I can drive for tw years after I pass the A license test. cause its power is 0.15k per kg.
Do I have that right, Power: 21.2 kW/weight:140kg=0.15

http://www.whatbike.ie/usedcardetail.php?id=135886

Del2005

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Ah I see. Sorry, for some reason,it slipped my mind the Giants Causeway wasnt in the Republic. Anyways, regarding the law so, as per http://www.msa-ireland.com/licenses.htm

"for 2 years afterwards of 25Kw/34bhp. or a power to weight ratio of less than 0.16kW per kg"

So something like a Honda GL CL 400 I can drive for tw years after I pass the A license test. cause its power is 0.15k per kg.
Do I have that right, Power: 21.2 kW/weight:140kg=0.15

http://www.whatbike.ie/usedcardetail.php?id=135886

It's under 25kw so it doesn't matter what it weights. The power to weight only comes into affect for big heavy bikes like Harley's which have more the 25kw.

oxygen

Ah nice one. The honda's still under the 25kw. Its a nice bike that.
http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/honda_cl_400_2002.php

Dark-Mavis

You also have to hold your provisional for six months or more before sitting the full test.

P.C.

Del2005 wrote: »

It's under 25kw so it doesn't matter what it weights. The power to weight only comes into affect for big heavy bikes like Harley's which have more the 25kw.

Actually, the intent of the law was to prevent people from riding 'high' power small two-stoke bikes.
Not to allow people to ride big/heavy 'low' powered bikes.

People (particularly those delling bikes) have chosen to interpret the law to their benifit.

I am glad that I am not going to be the one to test this law in court, but one day, someone will.

Del2005

P.C. wrote: »

Actually, the intent of the law was to prevent people from riding 'high' power small two-stoke bikes.
Not to allow people to ride big/heavy 'low' powered bikes.

People (particularly those delling bikes) have chosen to interpret the law to their benifit.

I am glad that I am not going to be the one to test this law in court, but one day, someone will.

Whatever the intent of the law. The wording is the bike has to be less the 25kw OR 0.16kw/kg. It's not our fault they worded it wrong. Search isn't working for me on the Irish Statute website so I'll have to use the ROTR site.

Motorcycles - with or without a side-car. There are restrictions on this category of licence. The maximum power output cannot exceed 25 kW or a power/weight ratio of 0.16kW per kg. This restriction continues for a period of two years after obtaining a full category A licence.

oxygen

Dark-Mavis wrote: »

You also have to hold your provisional for six months or more before sitting the full test.

Ah crap, what can I drive for the 6 months until I sit the test?

KamiKazi

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Ah crap, what can I drive for the 6 months until I sit the test?

The same as you can drive for two years after you pass your test.

Simon Jester

Im not sure there are any punitive actions specified in the 25kw regulation. The worst the guards can do is whine at you, I think*.

Its more of a voulantary code of practice than a law.

*This is not legal advice, I am not a solicitor. My opinion only

KamiKazi

Simon Jester wrote: »

Im not sure there are any punitive actions specified in the 25kw regulation. The worst the guards can do is whine at you, I think*.

Its more of a voulantary code of practice than a law.

*This is not legal advice, I am not a solicitor. My opinion only

Insurance companies can use it to make you pay for any claims you have if they find out your bike was over the power limit. Qunt Direct are the worst, doubt any other insurer would TBH.

bladespin

Simon Jester wrote: »

Im not sure there are any punitive actions specified in the 25kw regulation. The worst the guards can do is whine at you, I think*.

Its more of a voulantary code of practice than a law.

*This is not legal advice, I am not a solicitor. My opinion only

Good thing it's not legal advise, basically the guard could decide to summons the rider for driving without a license or insurance (as it covers the rider on a restricted machine).

The gardai do seem to be starting to enforce this too, I was asked twice about it, have a full, unrestricted license so just had to show that and they were happy.

Del2005

Simon Jester wrote: »

Im not sure there are any punitive actions specified in the 25kw regulation. The worst the guards can do is whine at you, I think*.

Its more of a voulantary code of practice than a law.

*This is not legal advice, I am not a solicitor. My opinion only

The Gardaí don't really bother enforcing it. But I've 2nd hand info of someone getting done.

The major issue is insurance. If you are riding a bike >25kw on a restricted licence you are riding outside the terms of your licence so you don't have a licence. No licence= no insurance.

While the insurance company will pay out any 3rd party claims they are perfectly entitled to recoup the costs from you at a later date, so you're not really covered.

Cuddlesworth

Del2005 wrote: »

The Gardaí don't really bother enforcing it. But I've 2nd hand info of someone getting done.

The major issue is insurance. If you are riding a bike >25kw on a restricted licence you are riding outside the terms of your licence so you don't have a licence. No licence= no insurance.

While the insurance company will pay out any 3rd party claims they are perfectly entitled to recoup the costs from you at a later date, so you're not really covered.

Regardless of the restrictions placed upon you, you still hold a license. Is a loophole in irish law.

Del2005

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Regardless of the restrictions placed upon you, you still hold a license. Is a loophole in irish law.

Yes but not for the class of vehicle you are driving. If you have a B licence you can drive a van up to 3.5tonnes but not over, you have a licence but not for the class of vehicle you are driving. If you are driving a van which weights more the 3.5tonnes and crash do you think you'll get away with a loophole.

Same on a A restricted, my licence has A <25kw and A after that. The A only kicks in after the A <25kw expires

Insurance is based on good faith, if you knowingly lie to them they can void your policy.

Cuddlesworth

Del2005 wrote: »

Yes but not for the class of vehicle you are driving. If you have a B licence you can drive a van up to 3.5tonnes but not over, you have a licence but not for the class of vehicle you are driving. If you are driving a van which weights more the 3.5tonnes and crash do you think you'll get away with a loophole.

Same on a A restricted, my licence has A <25kw and A after that. The A only kicks in after the A <25kw expires

Insurance is based on good faith, if you knowingly lie to them they can void your policy.

I never said you were covered under insurance(third party still is), but can you point out a single person who has been convicted in the court for driving without a license during the two year restriction?

fuelinjection

When you get a provisional motorbike license you cannot leave the Republic of Ireland. Then pass your test, and check with the insurance company that you have European cover for holidays before you book your trip.

As far as the power to weight limits go, if you lie to the insurance company and they decide not to pay out in the event of the accident, then you may as well just not get insurance at all and save your money. Why pay for insurance that will not cover you ?

My friend had to get a Suzuki engineers inspection saying that the 600cc engine had been resticted for his insurance company.

P.C.

The law says that you have to ride a restricted bike for two years after passing your full test.

End Of!

Lets not argue about what insurance will cover who, or are the Gardai enforcing it.
This thing of - tell me when the insurance has refused to pay out, or the Gardai don't care about the law - will only end in tears.

If you have a licence to ride a bike - ride it.

If you don't - don't.

Blitzkrieger

Easy to say, not so easy to live with.

My bike has bucked the kicket recently and I'm looking to get a new one. I've been withouth a bike for six weeks now, and am planning on waiting another six weeks because that's when my restriction ends. The worst part is it should be four weeks - I got my license on the 6th of April but only recenty noticed he put the 15th on it :mad:

Would it be so terrible to go but a Fireblade now? It is so ****ing frustrating to only be allowed to ride an under-powered bike.....

Del2005

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I never said you were covered under insurance(third party still is), but can you point out a single person who has been convicted in the court for driving without a license during the two year restriction?

The 3th party is covered but the insurance company can come back to you and reclaim all their costs. That's not insurance in my book.

No, but I would never advise anyone to break the law and potentially leave themselves open to a ban/fine at the best.

Until recently B provisional drivers where not prosecuted for driving unaccompanied. They are now and they are getting hit with large fines. What's to say the government suddenly won't realise there's a new handy revenue stream by fining and banning people ridding out side their licence conditions on bikes?

KamiKazi

Del2005 wrote: »

The 3th party is covered but the insurance company can come back to you and reclaim all their costs. That's not insurance in my book.

No, but I would never advise anyone to break the law and potentially leave themselves open to a ban/fine at the best.

Until recently B provisional drivers where not prosecuted for driving unaccompanied. They are now and they are getting hit with large fines. What's to say the government suddenly won't realise there's a new handy revenue stream by fining and banning people ridding out side their licence conditions on bikes?

It won't happen because they only to prove if a bike is or isn't restricted is to stick it up on a dyno and the government just won't pay for that. You DO NOT need a certificate proving your bike is restricted, you just need it to be restricted.

RosieJoe

no_account wrote: »

Easy to say, not so easy to live with.

My bike has bucked the kicket recently and I'm looking to get a new one. I've been withouth a bike for six weeks now, and am planning on waiting another six weeks because that's when my restriction ends. The worst part is it should be four weeks - I got my license on the 6th of April but only recenty noticed he put the 15th on it :mad:

Would it be so terrible to go but a Fireblade now? It is so ****ing frustrating to only be allowed to ride an under-powered bike.....

Your full license is issued with the date the RSA get it not the date you passed your test! The longer you wait to send off for it the longer your 2 year restriction is

bladespin

no_account wrote: »

Easy to say, not so easy to live with.


Would it be so terrible to go but a Fireblade now? It is so ****ing frustrating to only be allowed to ride an under-powered bike.....

No, just very dangerous, can't recommend jumping off a 33bhp bike straight to a blade, why not work your way up?

KamiKazi wrote: »

It won't happen because they only to prove if a bike is or isn't restricted is to stick it up on a dyno and the government just won't pay for that. You DO NOT need a certificate proving your bike is restricted, you just need it to be restricted.

No, you may be asked to prove your vehicle meets the requirements, so it would be down to you to dyno it, guards etc will work off the datasheet for whatever bike you're riding, if the sheet says it's 70bhp standard then you'll have to prove that you've done something to bring it under the limit or they can assume you haven't. You don't need the cert but it'd be an easier and cheaper way to prove you're legal than having to dyno the bike to do so.

MojoMaker

Del2005 wrote: »

Whatever the intent of the law. The wording is the bike has to be less the 25kw OR 0.16kw/kg. It's not our fault they worded it wrong. Search isn't working for me on the Irish Statute website so I'll have to use the ROTR site.

Motorcycles - with or without a side-car. There are restrictions on this category of licence. The maximum power output cannot exceed 25 kW or a power/weight ratio of 0.16kW per kg. This restriction continues for a period of two years after obtaining a full category A licence.

You do realise that when a boolean OR is used in conjunction with a negative argument (i.e. cannot) it becomes inclusive, right?

i.e. the directive above becomes " you cannot do A or B", not you can do A or B.

Biker.ie clarified this with the department of the environment about 3 years ago and the formal statement from them was that restricted riders must comply with both conditions - (a) you cannot ride a bike over 25kw, (b) you cannot ride a bike over 0.16kw/kg.

There is no loophole.
There is no grey area.
This directive is legally binding in all members states of the EU.

Del2005

MojoMaker wrote: »

You do realise that when a boolean OR is used in conjunction with a negative argument (i.e. cannot) it becomes inclusive, right?

i.e. the directive above becomes " you cannot do A or B", not you can do A or B.

Obviously not.

Biker.ie clarified this with the department of the environment about 3 years ago and the formal statement from them was that restricted riders must comply with both conditions - (a) you cannot ride a bike over 25kw, (b) you cannot ride a bike over 0.16kw/kg.

There is no loophole.
There is no grey area.
This directive is legally binding in all members states of the EU.

Thanks posting the correct information.

Blitzkrieger

RosieJoe wrote: »

Your full license is issued with the date the RSA get it not the date you passed your test!

Passed the test on the 5th. Went to the motor tax office to get my license the next day. Didn't realise the mistake at the time

bladespin wrote: »

No, just very dangerous, can't recommend jumping off a 33bhp bike straight to a blade, why not work your way up?

Era, I'll take it handy for a while. I'm more worried I'll be stalling all the time because I'll be afraid to open the taps. I was thinking about working my way up, but I'd prefer to get one decent bike and stick with it for a good 6 or 7 years. It's not like I'm getting a K1....

bladespin

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

Era, I'll take it handy for a while. I'm more worried I'll be stalling all the time because I'll be afraid to open the taps. I was thinking about working my way up, but I'd prefer to get one decent bike and stick with it for a good 6 or 7 years. It's not like I'm getting a K1....

A fireblade's as fast (if not faster than a K1 ) if you don't know that then I'd be even more hesitant about gettiing a big bike.

TBH I've never known of a dangerous bike so if you treat it with respect and take your time then you should be ok, just remember it's as close to F1 performance as anything gets on the road

rubensni

MojoMaker wrote: »

You do realise that when a boolean OR is used in conjunction with a negative argument (i.e. cannot) it becomes inclusive, right?

i.e. the directive above becomes " you cannot do A or B", not you can do A or B.

Biker.ie clarified this with the department of the environment about 3 years ago and the formal statement from them was that restricted riders must comply with both conditions - (a) you cannot ride a bike over 25kw, (b) you cannot ride a bike over 0.16kw/kg.

There is no loophole.
There is no grey area.
This directive is legally binding in all members states of the EU.

I think you're wrong here MojoMaker as if it went to court that advice wouldn't stand up as I believe it's based on the explanitory note that came with the SI (366/99) which says:

The Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1999 established the general rule that first time provisional licence holders in Category A will be restricted to riding motorcycles not exceeding 25 kW engine power until 2 years after taking out a full licence in category A.

but those explanatory notes are meaningless in a legal context.

The legislation states:

17. (1) Subject to sub-article (2), a person granted a provisional licence for the first time on or after the commencement of these Regulations to drive vehicles in category A and who on obtaining a certificate of competency in that category is subsequently granted a driving licence in that category, shall, until a period of two years after the grant of the latter licence, be restricted to driving only those vehicles in the said category which have a power output not exceeding 25 kW or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg, or in the case of vehicles in the said category with sidecars, with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg.

Note in particular how the wording is laid out around the power/weight ratio of a bike with a sidecar.

Yes, you're right that this is based on a directive, but that doesn't mean that a judge would be able to convict because the domestic legislation is incorrectly phrased. Just because the Oireachtas made a hash of it that doesn't mean that the judge can then go and get the directive and use that. Nor can he use the explanatory notes or the advice from the Department.

It is very much a grey area.

Del2005

It's the insurance I'm more worried about. They don't need to got to court to void your insurance and in civil law you need to prove your legal. I wouldn't like to be the 1st person to try and fight either in court.