Planning for older building with a catch.

ScouseMouse

Situation.

A two story building in South Dublin area with a shop downstairs and accomodation/offices upstairs.

The building was built in the 40's-50's and has always been a shop downstairs.

Over the years the upstairs has been used by the owners for living in, but most recently, it has been empty or used as a staff canteen/offices.

An architect has said he would have difficulty doing up plans for an apartment/refurbishing the upstairs as he mentioned it may need planning permission and wants clarification. The building is pre '63 and was lived in upstairs upto 1980 at least.

If it doesnt need planning (as I think it doesnt, as it was never changed officially from living accom THAT I AM AWARE OF), then he can do lots of internal work with different, less regulation.

If it does, then the rules are much more stringent with much more restrictions.

The architect says to check what the deeds say, but the solicitor says it wont be on the deeds. The building is pre '63 so I am not sure the planning dept will know either.

In peoples opions can I just go ahead as it was always residental. About half of the shops on my row, are residential upstairs.

Anyone any opinions?

Thanks in advance.

archtech

The best way to determine if planning permission is required or not , is to apply to the planning authority under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act, seeking exempted development of the works

muffler

1. Are you saying (as per line 1 of your post) that there is an office upstairs?

2. Why does your architect have difficulty with preparing plans and why does he not understand the planning regs?

ScouseMouse

The architect told me:

"If the deeds say accomodation upstairs" then no planning issues to worry about. He can use one set of less stringent rules and do more with the space without to much red tape.

If the deeds say: "office space upstairs", then I need planning as its a change of use. This will create numerous issues plus a big expense.

I asked the solicitor to call the deeds from the bank and he said this information is not even on the deeds!

As the whole place is pre '63, with no change of uses that I am aware of, I should be able to go ahead.

I have read the charter and am looking for peoples opinions and experiences. Not legal advice.

muffler

First of all I have never seen anything like this specified in property deeds before - Im not saying that it has never been done but its just that I am not aware of it. Deeds and planning regulations have nothing in common. Planning regs/rules do not take into account anything that is specified in deeds. It is the actual usage of a property that is at the core of your query.

The situation is fairly straight forward. If the use of upstairs has not been changed from living accommodation then there is no reason why you cant carry out certain domestic improvements to the property subject of course to the said improvements being classed as exempted development.

If however the upstairs of the property has been used for a purpose other than private accommodation then that does change things a bit.

Im still unclear as to the point you mentioned about an office being located there.

ScouseMouse

Its an old shop where the owner originally lived over it. At some stage, one of the owners didnt live in it and the living room became an office. The kitchen became a canteen. I can go back about 50 years of multiple owners. Some lived here, some didnt. For the last 20 years noone lived here and the upstairs was used for empty/canteen/storage. But nothing official. As far as I can see, upstairs is/was for living in and just drifted unofficially into UNOFFICIAL shop use.

Mellor

superscouse wrote: »

The architect told me:

"If the deeds say accomodation upstairs" then no planning issues to worry about. He can use one set of less stringent rules and do more with the space without to much red tape.

If the deeds say: "office space upstairs", then I need planning as its a change of use. This will create numerous issues plus a big expense.

The above is not totally true, even if planning was needed. It won't be a massive burden.
Also, if it was planning exempt, there isn't much you can do before planning is needed. For example, access to the street.



All that was needed to be said was covered by archtech.Section 5 will sort out the grey areas. Your architect should of suggested this.

archtech wrote: »

The best way to determine if planning permission is required or not , is to apply to the planning authority under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act, seeking exempted development of the works

Poor Uncle Tom

superscouse wrote: »

Its an old shop where the owner originally lived over it.

For me this answers the question. The upstairs was used as accomodation for the shop owner/user, domestic accomodation over a shop. If a third party is introduced to use the accomodation, seperate to the shop owner/user then planning permission is required as the accomodation becomes commercial, an apartment, imo.