Extra charge on phone credit

Wolflikeme

superscouse wrote: »

You misunderstand.

Its a standalone machine as you see in pubs and some shops.

Its not an ATM. It sells phone credit and only phone credit.

The premises may get something for having it there but they have nothing to do with it. Its an outside company like vending machines.

The lady bought the wrong network and was stuck with it. But she had some cheek asking ME to fix it.

No I know what it is, I was just using the example that things are in place for other means so I'm sure they have to be for stand alone machines.

Well maybe she was just asking for help, nothing cheeky about that.

ScouseMouse

My point about being cheeky is based on the fact she only gave out to me last week about the surcharge so started going to the pub for her credit.

Then she bought the wrong one and she had noone to help her.

Poetic justice?

Gringo180

superscouse wrote: »

My point about being cheeky is based on the fact she only gave out to me last week about the surcharge so started going to the pub for her credit.

Then she bought the wrong one and she had noone to help her.

Poetic justice?

Human decency would of helped the lady, but I guess thats out of the question for some greedy shopkeepers like yourself:rolleyes:

I'd highly doubt you get served with a smile in your shop, judging by your attitude.

falan

In my small town there are about 6 or 7 shops who sell credit. Only one of them charges extra for credit. Same shop/petrol station charges 5.25eur for a breakfast roll that is like rubber when everywhere else charges 3.00euro....

NOW THATS RIP-OFF IRELAND:mad:

ScouseMouse

Gringo180 wrote: »

Human decency would of helped the lady, but I guess thats out of the question for some greedy shopkeepers like yourself:rolleyes:

I'd highly doubt you get served with a smile in your shop, judging by your attitude.

Well you doubt wrong then.

There is quite a good atmosphere in my shop.

I am known for slagging everyone.

But then, you can believe whatever you like.

Cabaal

superscouse wrote: »

Complain to the network

If a can of coke goes up from the manufacturer, so does the retail price to the customer.

Phone credit has gone up 4 times in the last 3 years. And the shop is expected to carry on charging the same price? Get a grip. The shop has every right to charge more.

If you dont like it, dont buy it. or complain to the network, they are the ones that increased the cost price.

A shopkeeper

But you could argue that a shop has a phone credit machine in order to bring in customers who will then likely buy other items which the shop makes profit on.

The same example applys to Lotto machines....you don't see the shop charging 20c extra on a quickpick because they can't.

Bottom line is the shop is only charging extra because they can and want extra money, of course shops that do this risk loosing ANY customers who might go in to buy credit and end up buying something extra because they'll be put off by this extra "super service charge"....so really the shops will be affecting their own business in other ways.

Unless of course the shop is at a total loss from running a phone credit machine (makes 0 profit)...which I highly doubt is the case...care to confirm or deny this superscouse?

colrow

I got hit with this rip off in the newsagent in Cork Airport a couple of years ago. I was dead pee'd off, they didn't tell me about there €2 charge till after they gave me the €20 topup. I needed the credit to use my fone then, and I put it down to an airport ripoff. I usually use my online banking to top up now.

Gary ITR

I don't think the retailers are wrong to do this, I blame the networks. The retailer exists on making a profit, if they didn't make a profit thay can't stay open.

Already there is minimal margin on cigarettes, which can be 1/3 of some retailers turnover and in some cases it actually costs retailers money to sell cigarettes when you take into account the percentage of their turnover that they pay to trade under a brandname (Spar etc)

The margin on phone credit is in around 3% iirc, this won't cover the cost of the floor you walk on, the door you walk through, the heat you absorb, the light you see with and the staff member that served you your phone credit. It is a pox that we are left to pay for it but it's not the retailer I blame, it's the poxy networks.

For those of you that say 'tough' the the local small shop need to gro up a tad too, I mean where do you go when you need something? Also an average convenience store has a staff of between 6-12 people most of who would live in the locality.

Cabaal

Onkle wrote: »

Already there is minimal margin on cigarettes, which can be 1/3 of some retailers turnover and in some cases it actually costs retailers money to sell cigarettes when you take into account the percentage of their turnover that they pay to trade under a brandname (Spar etc)

If a shop becomes part of a franchise this is the choice of the shop, the consumer didn't force the shop to do this.

Plenty of shops up and down the country don't have franchise's

The margin on phone credit is in around 3% iirc, this won't cover the cost of the floor you walk on, the door you walk through, the heat you absorb, the light you see with and the staff member that served you your phone credit. It is a pox that we are left to pay for it but it's not the retailer I blame, it's the poxy networks.

You make it sound like the only thing a shop sells is phone credit, as per my last post things like phone credit often exist simply to draw customers in who will then likely purchase some other item.

The same example can be applied to Lotto machines or a shop that has an ATM in their premises.....what percentage of profit do they get off an ATM?

For those of you that say 'tough' the the local small shop need to gro up a tad too, I mean where do you go when you need something? Also an average convenience store has a staff of between 6-12 people most of who would live in the locality.

The local shop by adding on this extra charge are ensuring that people WON'T get credit from them and if they are not getting credit then they are not going to pick up that something extra when they are in the premises.

As such the shop is loosing any chance of making profit off other items that the customer may buy.

Some shops will just chance their arm I've seen it time and time again over the years and this is coming from experience in the grocery/off-license/pub trade.

If they think they can charge extra and get away with it then they will,

ScouseMouse

Cabaal wrote: »

But you could argue that a shop has a phone credit machine in order to bring in customers who will then likely buy other items which the shop makes profit on.

The same example applys to Lotto machines....you don't see the shop charging 20c extra on a quickpick because they can't.

Bottom line is the shop is only charging extra because they can and want extra money, of course shops that do this risk loosing ANY customers who might go in to buy credit and end up buying something extra because they'll be put off by this extra "super service charge"....so really the shops will be affecting their own business in other ways.

Unless of course the shop is at a total loss from running a phone credit machine (makes 0 profit)...which I highly doubt is the case...care to confirm or deny this superscouse?

As for the claim, it brings people in and they spend money on other things, in practice, that often is wrong.
The example of Lotto is incorrect because we took in the lotto at a margin of six percent. They have not increased the price. So we still get six percent. They have never increased the price in the 15 years that I can remember.

The phone companies have increased the cost price of credit four times. So its gone from 10 percent, to its current 4 percent approximately.


On the question of running at cost:

The staff member has to be paid, the pink terminal from Alphyra cost 15 euro per month, then you have the dedicated bb line (not sure to hand), along with all the other overheads of a store, rent, rates, etc etc.

Any business that does not increase its retails in line with increases in costs is asking for it.

ScouseMouse

Cabaal. Please answer me this.

If a pint of beer goes up from the brewer, the pint in the pub goes up.
If a can of coke from coke goes up from coke, the can in the shop goes up.
If a car tyre from pirelli goes up, quickfit will charge more to sell it.
If the cost of coffee goes up, it goes up in your local shop.

Why is phone credit different ?

Cabaal

superscouse wrote: »

As for the claim, it brings people in and they spend money on other things, in practice, that often is wrong.

Oh I see what your doing, your now attempting to discount the whole idea yet you know there is basis for it

Again care to answer me if you get money by having an ATM?

The example of Lotto is incorrect because we took in the lotto at a margin of six percent. They have not increased the price. So we still get six percent. They have never increased the price in the 15 years that I can remember.

That's a very interesting example, so during the Celtic Tiger years when running costs were at they're highest and wages were high etc the Lotto never increased the revenue to shops?

Tell me why didn't shops then add on an surcharge for quick picks and lotto tickets in order to cover increased running costs (and god knows they likely had them)?

Oh wait.....because they couldn't because people would have been bitching on the likes of Joe Duffy about greedy shops charging 20c extra on a quick pick.

Phone credit however they increase because they knew they'd likely get away with it.

The phone companies have increased the cost price of credit four times. So its gone from 10 percent, to its current 4 percent approximately.

Interesting, can you perhaps give me a breakdown of when it dropped by each percentage over the years

Given MANY shops having been charging between 20c (20p) and even upto 1e extra for phone credit as far back as I can remember (certainly at least 1999), can you tell me what percentage it was then?

Again you know greed showed its head long long before the percentage dropped to 4%

superscouse wrote: »

Cabaal. Please answer me this.

If a pint of beer goes up from the brewer, the pint in the pub goes up.

Yes, however a pub by law must display the price in addition the pub risks loosing business to other pubs very easily if they do this in a very greedy way.

I've only seen a hand full of shops display a notice about a "service charge", this is underhanded and likely against the law. Can you tell me do you have a notice up?

We've seen with phone credit the OP had to pay 50c yet other shops charge 20c, this is in-consisted pricing across the board and it shows "chancing the arm" pricing.

If a can of coke from coke goes up from coke, the can in the shop goes up.

Interesting example, years ago in the shop we sold cans for 50p...now we had all the standard soft drink cans priced at 50p yet some shops even in the same area were charging 55p or even 60p.

Now we had running costs the same as the rest of them, yet we didn't get greedy and up prices on soft drink cans as much as these shops.

I've seen shops increase prices from both sides of the counter and you and me know shops will often increase prices just because they can milk more money and get away with it.

Hagar

superscouse wrote: »

Cabaal. Please answer me this.

If a pint of beer goes up from the brewer, the pint in the pub goes up.
If a can of coke from coke goes up from coke, the can in the shop goes up.
If a car tyre from pirelli goes up, quickfit will charge more to sell it.
If the cost of coffee goes up, it goes up in your local shop.

Why is phone credit different ?

You logic is perfect but there is a perception held by the public, rightly or wrongly, that €10 credit should cost €10.

If a pint of beer had "€3 pint of beer" printed on the glass the punter would react if asked for €3.25.

Perhaps the credit pricing should be like petrol pricing, you buy a tenners worth but get a little less as the price rises. That would work just as well for phones. The retailers margin remains intact and the customer knows you get less for a tenner today compared to 12 months ago.

ScouseMouse

Tried to multi quote this but gave up

A lot, but not all customers buy nothing else.

Dont have an atm as there are three within a five minute walk and I think they cost 80 quid a week and another phone line.


Dont know why you are talking about revenue from Lotto when we are talking about commission. They shops always got 6%, it has never changed - unlike credit. And for your information, lotto revenues have dropped substantially. Why do you think all these extra draws have been brought in.

On your point about costs. Main cost like rent, rates, and wages have not dropped, dont know where you got that idea from.

Your question about the notice telling people about the charge. I have one on the till and another one on the credit machine.

I am on my day off today so I dont have access to the cost prices, but I wouldnt put them on here anyway.

But everything I have said is true.

Perhaps you could answer my other post about why credit is different to tyres, coffee, coke etc etc

Your point about increased running cost resulting in surcharges shows you dont understand this thread, its about the surcharge brought about by the increase in phone credit and phone credit only.

Gary ITR

Cabaal wrote: »

If a shop becomes part of a franchise this is the choice of the shop, the consumer didn't force the shop to do this.

Plenty of shops up and down the country don't have franchise's

Becoming part of a franchise is a good thing for the consumer. Independents are more expensive. Plenty of shops up and down the country don't have a franchise this is true but they are becoming fewer and fewer.

Cabaal wrote: »

You make it sound like the only thing a shop sells is phone credit, as per my last post things like phone credit often exist simply to draw customers in who will then likely purchase some other item.

The same example can be applied to Lotto machines or a shop that has an ATM in their premises.....what percentage of profit do they get off an ATM?

So phone credit is added to the list along with cigarettes, lotto, newspapers... where does it stop? What if cadbury's go in next week and say 'we're upping our prices and cutting your margin to 6%'

Any retailer I know that has an ATM says they are more trouble than they are worth and cost them money. I'd prefer not to go into the ins and outs of an ATM though for obvious reasons

Cabaal wrote: »

The local shop by adding on this extra charge are ensuring that people WON'T get credit from them and if they are not getting credit then they are not going to pick up that something extra when they are in the premises.

As such the shop is loosing any chance of making profit off other items that the customer may buy.

THat's a fair point but you will find that people buying phone credit will do exactly that and buy nothing else. Money is tighter and consumers aren't impulse buying anymore

Cabaal wrote: »

Some shops will just chance their arm I've seen it time and time again over the years and this is coming from experience in the grocery/off-license/pub trade.

If they think they can charge extra and get away with it then they will,

Most of the retailers charging this surcharge are doing it because they have to not because they want to. Believe it or not retailers want to give the best possible value to their customers to bring them back. Now you might have this image of retailers retiring to Paradise or driving a Bentley on the money made from this surcharge, it's simply not true. Most retailers are busting their balls at the minute to make ends meet. In fact I would bet money that Superscouse doesn't get a day off every week like he's enjoying today




Edit: I hate this rip off too. But blaming the retailer is akin to shooting the messenger. Blame the Networks

Gary ITR

Cabaal wrote: »

Interesting, can you perhaps give me a breakdown of when it dropped by each percentage over the years

Given MANY shops having been charging between 20c (20p) and even upto 1e extra for phone credit as far back as I can remember (certainly at least 1999), can you tell me what percentage it was then?

Again you know greed showed its head long long before the percentage dropped to 4%

I can't give an actual breakdown of the when and where's but I do remember this happening. IIRC 02 were the first to do it then the others followed suit and you're right it was a number of years ago, not 1999 though closer to 2002. At the time there was a huge standoff between retailers and the networks. If you remember the surcharge started at 10cent and steadily increased over the years as the margin dropped.

Cabaal wrote: »

We've seen with phone credit the OP had to pay 50c yet other shops charge 20c, this is in-consisted pricing across the board and it shows "chancing the arm" pricing.

It doesn't show ''chancing the arm'' pricing. It shows some retailers are willing/can afford to take the hit themselves. To bring margins into line where they once were retailers would need to charge 60cent for every €10

Cabaal wrote: »

Interesting example, years ago in the shop we sold cans for 50p...now we had all the standard soft drink cans priced at 50p yet some shops even in the same area were charging 55p or even 60p.

Now we had running costs the same as the rest of them, yet we didn't get greedy and up prices on soft drink cans as much as these shops.

I've seen shops increase prices from both sides of the counter and you and me know shops will often increase prices just because they can milk more money and get away with it.

Yes and the one charging 60p was probably cheaper on a bar of chocolate or or packet of crisps. Retail prices aren't just plucked out of the sky. Believe it or not shop pricing is an exact science these days. A shop must have an overall percentage margin, that's what pricing is decided on.

You will find that shops not making the margin on phone credit are just making it up elsewhere. They have to to stay afloat

Shelflife

The simple facts of the situation is that the networks would prefer the shopkeeper out of the loop now.

They have latched onto the notion of the topups costing €10, €20 etc when in fact they could sell them on a unit basis, but they want to keep the selling price the same.

The networks have consistently decreased the margin given to retailers from the heady days of the "scratch card top up" when we got 10% to now where we get just over 3%. When asked if the prices had gone up the networks have denied that they have giving the illusion that the retailer is being greedy when in fact all they are doing is passing on the price increase that the networks have imposed.


put simply the networks have increased the cost price, the retailers have in various forms either absorbed those prices or added them on, i fail to see where the rip off is.

As an aside when you topup via an atm, is there not a bank charge for the transaction?

Bobeagleburger

Some small shops forget we are in recession with all these ridiculous ripoffs.

Boycott shops that rip people off like this.

Shelflife

rarnes1 wrote: »

Some small shops forget we are in recession with all these ridiculous ripoffs.

Boycott shops that rip people off like this.

could you explain how passing on an increase in the cost of a product is a rip off please?

Gary ITR

rarnes1 wrote: »

Some small shops forget we are in recession with all these ridiculous ripoffs.

Boycott shops that rip people off like this.

Shops do realise we are in a recession, why do you think when you walk into a Centra or SuperValu there are promotions all over the place

Cabaal

superscouse wrote: »

Dont have an atm as there are three within a five minute walk and I think they cost 80 quid a week and another phone line.

But do you know if there is commission?
Sure;ly there must be or why would shops bother with them?

Dont know why you are talking about revenue from Lotto when we are talking about commission. They shops always got 6%, it has never changed - unlike credit. And for your information, lotto revenues have dropped substantially. Why do you think all these extra draws have been brought in.

Lotto is a good example,
Credit Machines like Lotto are devices which require space, training and commission.

The fact that the commission for Lotto didn't change at all during the more expensive celtic tiger years yet (rent, wages etc did) can you tell me why the shops didn't add on some extra fee to cover these extra running costs they had during these years?

You state that Lotto revenue's have dropped but commission hasn't, they are two separate things

On your point about costs. Main cost like rent, rates, and wages have not dropped, dont know where you got that idea from.

So your telling me no shops have dropped wages for staff or cut hours/jobs during the past two-three years?

Your question about the notice telling people about the charge. I have one on the till and another one on the credit machine.

Your one of the VERY few if you do,

I am on my day off today so I dont have access to the cost prices, but I wouldnt put them on here anyway.

So if your not going to post them why bother even saying you don't have access to them right now?
:rolleyes:

But everything I have said is true.

I don't know about that, shops have seen cuts in wages be it direct wage cuts or job/hour cuts, to say otherwise is incorrect

Perhaps you could answer my other post about why credit is different to tyres, coffee, coke etc etc

If you go into a shop and say pay 80c for an item thats what the item is priced at and this is what you are charged.

With phone credit it is priced at say 20e and thats what you expect to pay, thats what the customer knows the item is worth and thats what the shop normally only has displayed.

What shops are doing is equal to buying the item that is priced for 80c and when you go to the counter they up it to 95c, extremely dodgy

Just on a off side note its interesting to see all the shop keepers band together in this thread, you must have a little network to help notify each other of these sort of threads

Bobeagleburger

Shelflife wrote: »

could you explain how passing on an increase in the cost of a product is a rip off please?

Could you explain why only some shops pass on this increase?

It's a ripoff, plain and simple.

astrofool

I never knew that so many boards.ie users were so stupid to believe that €10 credit is actually €10 credit.

Think of it as 1000 credits, the price of which varies depending on where you buy it. It's the phone companies fault for marketing it as €10, when it really isn't, as you can only use it on their network.

I'd also say Dunnes gets a discount on the price of the credit it sells vs. small shopkeeper (or a rebate when they sell X amount).

Anyway, let the stupidity continue.

ScouseMouse

Perhaps we should move to the method in which people buy petrol. They buy a tenner and get so many litres. Then the price changes and your tenner gets you less. Perhaps that more appropriate. But this is the system the phone companies use so at present, we are stuck with it.

There is no commision on ATM machines. They actually cost money to have.

"Could you explain why only some shops pass on this increase?"

This question has been answered already, have a read of the thread again.

There seems to be a preoccupation with the lotto machine and why there is no surcharge so I will explain that AGAIN.

Shops took in the lotto machine and were given a 6% comission. We still get 6% comission. With me so far??

Phone credit came into the shops giving the retailer 10%. Still with me?

THEN-phone credit cost went up on several occasions which caused some stores to add on a handling fee. Still with me now?

INCREASED cost on phone credit resulted in a handling fee.
STATIC cost on lotto resulted in no handling fee.

Does this answer the question.

falan

Shelflife wrote: »

could you explain how passing on an increase in the cost of a product is a rip off please?

All the shops in my town (bar one) don't charge extra for credit. I wonder how they survive?

It's a rip-off.

ScouseMouse

falan wrote: »

All the shops in my town (bar one) don't charge extra for credit. I wonder how they survive?

It's a rip-off.

You still didnt answer the question.....

Cabaal

superscouse wrote: »

Perhaps we should move to the method in which people buy petrol. They buy a tenner and get so many litres. Then the price changes and your tenner gets you less. Perhaps that more appropriate. But this is the system the phone companies use so at present, we are stuck with it.

Not a accurate comparison, again if you go to a petrol station the petrol price is CLEARLY displayed this is not the case in the vast majority of cases with shops and phone credit.

So say 1.25 per ltr, you make a fill and go in to pay and you pay 1.25 per ltr, if the price goes up that is reflected outside and at the pump.

A much more appropriate comparison to phone credit if you see a sign for 1.25 per ltr, you fill up and go in and the shop charges you 1.26 per ltr

There is no commision on ATM machines. They actually cost money to have.

Interesting that,
Now why do you suppose shops have them then if they cost money to operate.

You said so yourself that enticing people in with the hopes that they buy other products doesn't happen in most cases so what benefit does the shop get?

Surely the shop should be charging a surcharge on money taken out of an ATM to cover costs? ]:rolleyes:

"Could you explain why only some shops pass on this increase?"

This question has been answered already, have a read of the thread again.

I appear to have missed it, care to point it out to me?
Again I'm talking about corner shops here

Cabaal

astrofool wrote: »

I never knew that so many boards.ie users were so stupid to believe that €10 credit is actually €10 credit.

God forbid the price display should be the price paid, the problem here is the vast majority of shops are likely breaking the law by not displaying that they charge a surcharge.

If a product is priced at say 5e and this is displayed then this is the price you pay.

Let the idiotic retailer continue overcharging the joe on the street, the variations of this extra "surcharge" of anything from 20c to 1e per phone credit show its not just down to commission its down to greed.

ScouseMouse

Cabaal wrote: »

God forbid the price display should be the price paid, the problem here is the vast majority of shops are likely breaking the law by not displaying that they charge a surcharge.

If a product is priced at say 5e and this is displayed then this is the price you pay.

Let the idiotic retailer continue overcharging the joe on the street, the variations of this extra "surcharge" of anything from 20c to 1e per phone credit show its not just down to commission its down to greed.

Thats your view and you are entitled to it - even if you dont know what you are talking about.:D

If a product has 5 euro written on it, you still dont have to sell at that price, look up invitation to treat. But you must display your selling price

Slan.

Shelflife

Cabaal you basically have bought into the spin that the networks have encouraged.

the networks are those that have put the rrp on the topup slips they have consistantly lied and said that they havnt put the cost of the product up but they have.

the fact that some shops absorb the cost and some pass it on is simple market forces, that same way that some shops charge more or less for various products.

you are correct in saying that the shop should clearly display the price of the topup.

its not a ripoff if the retailer passes on a price increase, but the networks are clearly misleading the public with the way they advertise the product.

its basically a form of price fixing when you have all of the networks "apparantly" independently deciding to reduce the margin (increase the cost of their product) from 10% to 3%. If they decided to increase the cost to the end user in the same way there would be an outcry of price fixing.

cabaal dont blame the retailer, its the networks that are screwing the retailer.

fwiw i dont charge a surcharge at the moment why? market forces in my area dont allow it, but its at the point where im wondering if its worth my while selling them at all.