Extra charge on phone credit

ScouseMouse

Shelflife wrote: »

Cabaal you basically have bought into the spin that the networks have encouraged.

the networks are those that have put the rrp on the topup slips they have consistantly lied and said that they havnt put the cost of the product up but they have.

the fact that some shops absorb the cost and some pass it on is simple market forces, that same way that some shops charge more or less for various products.

you are correct in saying that the shop should clearly display the price of the topup.

its not a ripoff if the retailer passes on a price increase, but the networks are clearly misleading the public with the way they advertise the product.

its basically a form of price fixing when you have all of the networks "apparantly" independently deciding to reduce the margin (increase the cost of their product) from 10% to 3%. If they decided to increase the cost to the end user in the same way there would be an outcry of price fixing.

cabaal dont blame the retailer, its the networks that are screwing the retailer.

fwiw i dont charge a surcharge at the moment why? market forces in my area dont allow it, but its at the point where im wondering if its worth my while selling them at all.

Alright shelflife.

I was at a meeting two weeks ago and it was mentioned that anyone without a surcharge may want to look closely at their costs. Sit down and add the wages, machine rental, broadband rental, paper costs (if you pay for the rolls) and add in a little for fraud and shinkage. Then look at what you get for it. Remember, "turnover is vanity - profit is sanity".

There is no point in selling ten grand @ 3%. Five grand @ 10% will pay your bills a lot faster. At the moment forget about making money, if you can cover your costs and not go under you are doing well.

Bobeagleburger

superscouse wrote: »

Alright shelflife.

I was at a meeting two weeks ago and it was mentioned that anyone without a surcharge may want to look closely at their costs. Sit down and add the wages, machine rental, broadband rental, paper costs (if you pay for the rolls) and add in a little for fraud and shinkage. Then look at what you get for it. Remember, "turnover is vanity - profit is sanity".

There is no point in selling ten grand @ 3%. Five grand @ 10% will pay your bills a lot faster. At the moment forget about making money, if you can cover your costs and not go under you are doing well.

Do you not think that you may sell more call credit by actually removing the surcharge?

That point seems to be lost on you.

ScouseMouse

rarnes1 wrote: »

Do you not think that you may sell more call credit by actually removing the surcharge?

That point seems to be lost on you.

Thats a fair comment but no. !

Been there before, tried it, didnt work.

The biggest problem is footfall has crashed. The buses are empty, the street deserted. The average shop is down 40%. The problem is footfall not prices.

Every shop in the country is knocking out deals but its not working. Until this improves the problem will not go away.

If only it were that easy to fix.

Shelflife

rarnes1 wrote: »

Do you not think that you may sell more call credit by actually removing the surcharge?

That point seems to be lost on you.

do the maths rarnes1 or is that point lost on you?

Gary ITR

Cabaal wrote: »

Just on a off side note its interesting to see all the shop keepers band together in this thread, you must have a little network to help notify each other of these sort of threads

I'm not a shopkeeper. I used to work in a shop alright but I don't now. I'm in field sales for an FMCG company and I see how tough the retailers have it at the moment. They are squeezing everything they can out of me and in fairness most are passing on their savings and doing good deals

jahalpin

Cabaal wrote: »

God forbid the price display should be the price paid, the problem here is the vast majority of shops are likely breaking the law by not displaying that they charge a surcharge.

If a product is priced at say 5e and this is displayed then this is the price you pay.

That's not entirely true, The price displayed is only an "invitation to treat" and it is up to the retailer whether they are willing to sell a product at this price.

Under the law, the retailer can refuse to sell any item at the advertised price.

It is very unfair of the networks to reduce the commission paid to the retailers while the costs involved in selling the product are going up. The retailers don't even get the benefit of credit on the purchases from the network as you need to be on weekly direct debit to get the product.

Cabaal

jahalpin wrote: »

That's not entirely true, The price displayed is only an "invitation to treat" and it is up to the retailer whether they are willing to sell a product at this price.

Under the law, the retailer can refuse to sell any item at the advertised price.

I see where your coming from.....
However a retailer should also display the correct price of an item once they have been made aware of the pricing error....this is where invitation to treat would come in normally....I'd agree under normal circumstances.

If however after being advised of a pricing inaccuracy (the retailer charging say 50c extra) a retailer should correct the pricing error or they are breaking the law.

So basically if they advertise phone credit as 10e and you go to buy it and they charge 10.50 then this is a misleading commercial practice under the Consumer Protection Act.

It is very unfair of the networks to reduce the commission paid to the retailers while the costs involved in selling the product are going up.

I see where your coming from that but that doesn't make it ok for ANY retailer to break the CPA,

P.C.

Cabaal wrote: »

So basically if they advertise phone credit as 10e and you go to buy it and they charge 10.50 then this is a misleading commercial practice under the Consumer Protection Act.

Who advertised the top up as €10?

Not ther individual shops.
The networks advertised that price.

When you buy €10 petrol do you think that you get the same amout of fuel each time?



No, you don't - the amout of fuel you get will vary with the price, yet research has shown that the average motorist still puts in either €10 or €20 - why?
Why don't motorists put in 10l or 20l?

The mobile phone networks know the behaviour of the average shopper, and use this information to make more money (for themselves) to te detrement of the reatilers.

How many minutes do you get for your €10?
Is it the same as 5 years ago?

While I agree that mobile phone top up (not the surcharge) is a rip off, it is not the retailer who is ripping you off, it is the mobile networks.

Edit: sorry Cabaal, I have just read another thread where you seem to be defending mobile phone companies.
Now I understand why you are blaming the retailors.

Cabaal

P.C. wrote: »

Who advertised the top up as €10?

Both the shops and the mobile phone companys, the shops however are breaking the law if they fail to incl the "service charge" in the advertised amount.....or do you think this is legal?

Not ther individual shops.
The networks advertised that price.

Really?
You seem pretty sure of yourself there...I've seen shops advertise 10e but then also slap on an extra charge at the counter

When you buy €10 petrol do you think that you get the same amout of fuel each time?

I've already answered this pathetic petrol example already

While I agree that mobile phone top up (not the surcharge) is a rip off, it is not the retailer who is ripping you off, it is the mobile networks.

..and yet its the shop that's applying this service charge which increases or decreases depending on what shop you get your credit from?

Edit: sorry Cabaal, I have just read another thread where you seem to be defending mobile phone companies.
Now I understand why you are blaming the retailors.

Paranoid much?
Next you'll be coming out with some bull**** that I work for mobile phone companys :rolleyes:

Thankfully the people that actually know me (incl mods) on this site know better

gerrycollins

great thread guy

im a retailer too and i know some of the guys here to talk to.

I dont charge a surcharge and I think im the only one in town that doesnt however at 3% margin in the long run its useless to me. again market forces determine to me that I cant charge it.

With all my products in the store I have to set a basic margin to the product in order to make my shop viable. Some yes are lower and other higher however the average is what counts. No matter how many more I sell the margin never changes unless I sell more of a higher margin product however the shop becomes less viable when I sell a lot of lower margin products because the average margin reduces.

Such forth Top up is the lowest margin product in my store and I can fully see and agree why people charge a fee for it. Maybe it should be better advertised in store, however any good retailer would do so to avoid a confrontation.

i do on average 5 hours a day on the tills and I can say for certain that 85% of people buying credit from me buy it and only it, so no its not a foot fall driver there.

BTW ATM need a a minimun transactions per day to make them earn comission, long term they cost the shop money.

NinjaTruncs

Gringo180 wrote: »

Its not just the sake of 50 cent its the principle, if we pay this they'll keep on upping the charge, where will it stop?

The networks started out paying somewhere between 7-10% on phone credit, but as time went by the started dropping the commission they paid, until it got to the point where it is now, at about 3%, or in actual terms you would need to sell 3,000 worth of credit to get 100 euro.

If selling credit was your job and you wanted to make atleast minimum wage from it, you would need to sell atleast €230 worth of credit an hour to make minimum wage.

As has been said elsewhere there are ways not to pay the surcharge, online or at an ATM, but if you want the convinence of popping into your local shop you may have to pay a little later.

Also add in the fact that selling credit is a complete pain in the ass, people coming in asking for €10 of 087 and then saying they asked for 086, or vise versa, taking the credit out of the shop and coming back in saying it doesn't work, then having to ring the network to find out who used it, if just isn't worth it at 30 cent out of a tenner.

Gary ITR

I heard today from a reliable source that one of the networks is about to drop by another .5%

ScouseMouse

Onkle wrote: »

I heard today from a reliable source that one of the networks is about to drop by another .5%

YOU ARE TAKING THE P***

ScouseMouse

gerrycollins wrote: »

great thread guy

im a retailer too and i know some of the guys here to talk to.

I dont charge a surcharge and I think im the only one in town that doesnt however at 3% margin in the long run its useless to me. again market forces determine to me that I cant charge it.

With all my products in the store I have to set a basic margin to the product in order to make my shop viable. Some yes are lower and other higher however the average is what counts. No matter how many more I sell the margin never changes unless I sell more of a higher margin product however the shop becomes less viable when I sell a lot of lower margin products because the average margin reduces.

Such forth Top up is the lowest margin product in my store and I can fully see and agree why people charge a fee for it. Maybe it should be better advertised in store, however any good retailer would do so to avoid a confrontation.

i do on average 5 hours a day on the tills and I can say for certain that 85% of people buying credit from me buy it and only it, so no its not a foot fall driver there.

BTW ATM need a a minimun transactions per day to make them earn comission, long term they cost the shop money.

Hiya Gerry.

Thats news to me. Its irrelevant to me anyway as there are three ATMs within 5 minutes of my place so we could never have a major use of it, but whats this about comission. Thats the first I heard of it. Easycash used to/do charge 80 quid per week if you dont do X amount of transactions.

gerrycollins

superscouse wrote: »

Hiya Gerry.

Thats news to me. Its irrelevant to me anyway as there are three ATMs within 5 minutes of my place so we could never have a major use of it, but whats this about comission. Thats the first I heard of it. Easycash used to/do charge 80 quid per week if you dont do X amount of transactions.

going off topic sorry guys,

i have an BOI machine and it does cost me €x amount per month however for each transaction done by the end consumer I get a couple of cents off this price. They call it comission but when its my comission against their charge its no difference.

However I need to get 700 transactions per month(value of withdrawl doesnt matter) for the value to balance out ad any more go in my favour. Now this does not include the cost to run it and the cost of the telephone line it uses.

my location is v rurual so getting that amount of transactions is very small so i do end up paying a bit each month.

ScouseMouse

When the previous owner had my store, it had an easycash machine. Now, to the best of my knowledge, it cost 80 euro a week but was free if you did so many hundred transactions. He ended up getting rid of it as it was just another expense.

In its place, I offer unlimited cashback (within reason) and pay 5 numbers on the lotto, so I dont need an ATM and it encourages sales.

gerrycollins

superscouse wrote: »

When the previous owner had my store, it had an easycash machine. Now, to the best of my knowledge, it cost 80 euro a week but was free if you did so many hundred transactions. He ended up getting rid of it as it was just another expense.

In its place, I offer unlimited cashback (within reason) and pay 5 numbers on the lotto, so I dont need an ATM and it encourages sales.

i had no choice with my machine plus in a small village it is sometimes the only one @8pm to get cash out. plus i currently dont have lotto but have no min spend for cashback but also offer unlimited cash via your card if the machine is down.

P.C.

P.C. wrote: »

Who advertised the top up as €10?

Not ther individual shops.
The networks advertised that price.

When you buy €10 petrol do you think that you get the same amout of fuel each time?



No, you don't - the amout of fuel you get will vary with the price, yet research has shown that the average motorist still puts in either €10 or €20 - why?
Why don't motorists put in 10l or 20l?

The mobile phone networks know the behaviour of the average shopper, and use this information to make more money (for themselves) to te detrement of the reatilers.

How many minutes do you get for your €10?
Is it the same as 5 years ago?

While I agree that mobile phone top up (not the surcharge) is a rip off, it is not the retailer who is ripping you off, it is the mobile networks.

Edit: sorry Cabaal, I have just read another thread where you seem to be defending mobile phone companies.
Now I understand why you are blaming the retailors.

Cabaal wrote: »

Both the shops and the mobile phone companys, the shops however are breaking the law if they fail to incl the "service charge" in the advertised amount.....or do you think this is legal?



Really?
You seem pretty sure of yourself there...I've seen shops advertise 10e but then also slap on an extra charge at the counter



I've already answered this pathetic petrol example already



..and yet its the shop that's applying this service charge which increases or decreases depending on what shop you get your credit from?



Paranoid much?
Next you'll be coming out with some bull**** that I work for mobile phone companys :rolleyes:

Thankfully the people that actually know me (incl mods) on this site know better

1.) I don't care who you work for, or what you do for a living.
You take the side of the mobile phone company - end of that argument.

2.) The mobile phone company chose the €10, €20, etc. - Not the retailer - end of that argument.

3.) Does the person purchasing, and using the credit get as much 'air time' for their €10 now as they did 5 years ago?
I don't know the answer to this, as I have a bill pay phone, But I can tell you that I get less now for more money that I did 5 years ago on my mobile.

So - why don't the mobile phone companies sell 'units' to the retailer.
That way, the customer can come in and say 'I want xxx units of 08X phone credit, please' - the shop will have their rates up, and the customer will then pay 'xxx' times the rate (where xxx = number of units, and rate = price per unit).
Each shop could display their rate at the till point (or as close as possible), and they would be able to determine their own margin.
The customer couls just as easily come in and ask for €10 of 08X - and the shop would sell them the credit, and it would be up to them to know how many 'units' they get.

jimoc

gerrycollins wrote: »

going off topic sorry guys,

i have an BOI machine and it does cost me €x amount per month however for each transaction done by the end consumer I get a couple of cents off this price. They call it comission but when its my comission against their charge its no difference.

However I need to get 700 transactions per month(value of withdrawl doesnt matter) for the value to balance out ad any more go in my favour. Now this does not include the cost to run it and the cost of the telephone line it uses.

my location is v rurual so getting that amount of transactions is very small so i do end up paying a bit each month.

After reading this, I'm wondering if there are any retailers out there who've spend an hour or so each month taking their own money out of their account at a tenner a go so they don't have to pay for the machine

Cabaal

P.C. wrote: »

1.) I don't care who you work for, or what you do for a living.
You take the side of the mobile phone company - end of that argument.

Edit: sorry Cabaal, I have just read another thread where you seem to be defending mobile phone companies.
Now I understand why you are blaming the retailors.

.

Really do I...all the time?
As your referring previously to another thread you appear to be under some sort of incorrect assumption that I somehow always back up the mobile phone company’s.

This is something that posters in the Broadband & Midband forum know is not true, in addition the Dept for Communication also knows I certainly don't back the phone company’s.

P.C. you can state that mobile phone company’s should do this or that but its plain and simple, at present a very high number of retailer are simply breaking the law when it comes to the Consumer Protection Act.

It is simply unacceptable behaviour, if they want to include some sort of service charge to suit their needs (be it 20c or 50c) then this MUST be included in the price display, if they are NOT doing this it is in breach of the Consumer Protection Act.

Before you start saying mobile phone companys should do it this way how about retailers act within the law first eh?

3.) Does the person purchasing, and using the credit get as much 'air time' for their €10 now as they did 5 years ago?
I don't know the answer to this, as I have a bill pay phone, But I can tell you that I get less now for more money that I did 5 years ago on my mobile.

Very much a seperate matter thats down to specific price plans choosen by the customer, the network they are using and the types of calls they are making.....it doesn't concern the retailer what the end user wants the credit for.

The end user buys credit for what they want it for, if the credit is priced at 10e and this is the price display this should be the price paid. If a shop wants to charge a service charge then the price display MUST reflect this.

Both you and I know billpay is nopthing like PAYG, but if you want to take 20e I would say the end users are certainly getting more calls and texts per 20e then they did 5 or 10 years ago.

You have to remember that O2, Meteor, Vodafone, Three etc didn't all offer those unlimited price plans/packages years ago, but they all do now and have had to lower prices thanks to competition

astrofool

So your problem is with the display of the surcharge, rather than the charge itself?

itsonlywords

Gringo180 wrote: »

Whats the story with this, I ask for 10 euro's credit in supervalu, machine prints the credit out, hand in my 10 euro note and the woman say's "eh sorrrrrrrrri its 10.50 we've a 50c charge on it" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Robbing b%$tards I mean not only a 50c charge on a tenner credit but they even have the cheek to ask for an extra 1 euro on twenty euro's credit

My local shop has this policy. What I have done with 3 seperate assistants is to ask for 20 Euro credit and when they hand me the voucher I hand over 20 Euro and they say sorry but it is 1 euro extra and I laughed and walked out. Robbers. Wont serve me now. but there is another one I will go to now and catch them until they refuse me.

the groutch

I think that shops should be allowed to charge the extra if they want, people will go elsewhere most of the time, and they'll learn that it's not worth it for the lost business
I do think tho, that ComReg need to make it illegal to not clearly display the exact details of any surcharges

ScouseMouse

itsonlywords wrote: »

My local shop has this policy. What I have done with 3 seperate assistants is to ask for 20 Euro credit and when they hand me the voucher I hand over 20 Euro and they say sorry but it is 1 euro extra and I laughed and walked out. Robbers. Wont serve me now. but there is another one I will go to now and catch them until they refuse me.

That makes you a thief.

A shop offers something for a price. You accept the offer of the product for the price or you decline it. What you are doing is classed as theft.

ScouseMouse

the groutch wrote: »

I think that shops should be allowed to charge the extra if they want, people will go elsewhere most of the time, and they'll learn that it's not worth it for the lost business
I do think tho, that ComReg need to make it illegal to not clearly display the exact details of any surcharges

What you dont realise is they ARE allowed to charge what they want. For any company to tell someone they can only charge a certain price is illegal under price fixing legislation.

Cabaal

astrofool wrote: »

So your problem is with the display of the surcharge, rather than the charge itself?

Both issues, one obviously the shop can do legally (add the service charge) and the other the shop can't do legally (charge a service charge without showing that its part of the price).

Cabaal

the groutch wrote: »

I do think tho, that ComReg need to make it illegal to not clearly display the exact details of any surcharges

Its not a job for comreg, not showing the full price of the credit (incl surcharge) would come under the consumer agency I would imagine....but certainly isn't a job for Comreg.

superscouse wrote: »

What you dont realise is they ARE allowed to charge what they want. For any company to tell someone they can only charge a certain price is illegal under price fixing legislation.

I certainly don't agree with the groutch in what he's done, it would be of more benefit if it just never bought ANY credit at the shop in question because of the service charge.

gerrycollins

jimoc wrote: »

After reading this, I'm wondering if there are any retailers out there who've spend an hour or so each month taking their own money out of their account at a tenner a go so they don't have to pay for the machine

becasue we dont earn enough to do it this way also €10 are no longer in the in store machines

gerrycollins

Cabaal wrote: »

Both issues, one obviously the shop can do legally (add the service charge) and the other the shop can't do legally (charge a service charge without showing that its part of the price).

agreeded nothing should be sold in a shop without the proper price been displayed.

adomino

superscouse wrote: »

That makes you a thief.

A shop offers something for a price. You accept the offer of the product for the price or you decline it. What you are doing is classed as theft.

no, they cheated him. normal practice is informing the customer prior to handover of cash - "theres a charge of 50 cent on this"

met with - "no thanks, bye"

why don't you charge for the lotto then? afraid of the garda? lol

greedy muppets some of these small shops. if you can't afford it, DON'T GO INTO BUSINESS!!! find a new career!!!