CFLs failing

P. Breathnach

I bought two light fittings and had them installed last July. Each has six GU10 CFL bulbs. Since they were installed five of the twelve bulbs have failed. They are the lighting manufacturer's proprietary bulb, and cost €10 each to replace, so it's hurting the pocket a bit.

The packet gives a 8000 hours rating for the bulbs -- that's just short of a year without ever switching them off. I estimate that the total time I have used the lights is about 1500 hours -- certainly less than 2000 hours.

I accept that there is some variation in the life of bulbs, and wasn't particularly concerned when one of them failed in the first few days. But I think that five out of twelve failing is unacceptable. [I'd be cross if five of 12 incandescent bulbs had failed in that amount of time.]

Now my question: can anybody point me to a site which enables to convert my experience into a statistically sound claim, which would enable me to say convincingly that five failures in that amount of time is so improbable that it is evidence that the goods are deficient?

kippy

Not a sparkie or anything like that but I've had similiar problems.
I came to the conclusion that these bulbs are ultrasensitive to surges/spikes in supply even tiny ones and wonder whether some other piece of kit should be installed with them.
Looking forward to the answers to this one.

ttm

Check the BBC's website they've had a couple of radio programs on the subject.

I keep taking the bulbs back and get free replacements. We use a lot of "daylight" CFL's and they last on average 6 months, I keep all the reciepts so just take them back and the shop keep replacing them.

It is a total joke they don't last anything as long as they say. Our problem might be a bit more extreme because we have a very poor power supply as we are at the very end of a circuit.

Edit> Here's some info to start you off

Edit2> Classic BEEB article here and plenty of people would agree with you in the replies here

Final Edit>Looks like the problem is in the life span calculation

The relevant info from the BBC NEWS / MAGAZINE (BEEB article) is this

When a batch of bulbs is tested, they are turned on for three hours, then off for 20 minutes over and over again until half the batch fails. This point in time is then decreed the average life.
It is often 10,000 hours. As no-one adds up the hours a light is on over its lifespan, this is translated as 10 years, on the assumption that the bulb will be on for an average of three hours a day.
But as half the bulbs will fail before 10,000 hours, a shopper may be unlucky enough to pick a dud that will fail after just 2,000 hours.

Sponge Bob

The gu10 form has a transformer in the base and that is normally what goes seeing as these CFL yokes are €20 a pop it nearly cheaper to run 50w Halogens for 50c each from Aldi and a 6 month lifetime on average )

This guy in Kerry runs a great blog on LED instead of CFL...and the pros and cons, some interesting comments in the blog. I advise highly.

http://wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com/

looksee

I have a lot of long life bulbs of various sorts, I don't know technically which is which but they cost between 6 and 15 € depending on whether there is a special offer on. I write the date on the base and have so far found them to last as long as they are supposed to.

IrishTonyO

Sponge Bob wrote: »

as these CFL yokes are €20 a pop

Jesus! €20! Don;t know where you buy your bulbs, but I would change supplier immediately. Last time I bought them they were on offer in B&Q and were 75 cent each (so bought 20), but normal price is about €2-€5. Have the whole house on them at the moment for almost 2 years and none have gone yet

alwaysadub

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The gu10 form has a transformer in the base and that is normally what goes seeing as these CFL yokes are €20 a pop it nearly cheaper to run 50w Halogens for 50c each from Aldi and a 6 month lifetime on average )

This guy in Kerry runs a great blog on LED instead of CFL...and the pros and cons, some interesting comments in the blog. I advise highly.

http://wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com/

No-the GU10 doesn't have a transformer,its the low voltage one that has a transformer. And bulbs go a lot quicker than transfomers. It doesnt work out cheaper on your ESB bill in the long run using a cheap 50w bulb..

OP-are you leaving them on for long periods of time or just flicking them on and off? CFL bulbs don't last as long if they are constantly just flicked on and off.
You could go back and talk to the person you bought them off-they should replace them and send them back to the supplier.

P. Breathnach

alwaysadub wrote: »

... OP-are you leaving them on for long periods of time or just flicking them on and off? CFL bulbs don't last as long if they are constantly just flicked on and off.
You could go back and talk to the person you bought them off-they should replace them and send them back to the supplier.

I'm pleased that people are interested in questions like this.

We have used CFLs in this house for years, and know in a general way what to expect (including not buying into the supposed equivalences with incandescents, which are generally exaggerated: I'd suggest 1w CFL = 4w incandescent as a guideline).

In response to alwaysadub's question: we tend to leave the lights on continuously (a) because they are in the living-room and (b) we know it's best not to switch them on and off too frequently.

Where I have been kind of trapped is the the CFLs are custom-designed for light fittings from the manufacturer, because they are threaded for the shades that are part of the unit. Therefore, there is only one ultimate source of supply (I have checked prices with other retailers, and they all charge about the same for these bulbs, so it's not a matter of one particular firm ripping me off). I have opened discussions with my supplier, and he seems less concerned about things than I am, while not dismissing my complaint. It would be convenient if I could beef up my case with a technical argument that 5 failures in 1500 hours' use means that the average life of these CFLs can be deemed to be X hours plus or minus Y hours, and the 8000 hours claimed is absurd.

I think these lighting units are going to be taken down and returned to the supplier, and I just want to be sure that I have all the ammunition I need.

Thanks, people, for the inputs so far, and more contributions are welcome.

wyndham

I have had problems with CFLs in enclosed light fitting-a globe fitting, where the unit is sealed. Put 5 in at the same time in the fitting and 3 were gone within a couple of months. I surmised that they were overheating in the closed fitting and unsuited to it.

P. Breathnach

wyndham wrote: »

I have had problems with CFLs in enclosed light fitting-a globe fitting, where the unit is sealed. Put 5 in at the same time in the fitting and 3 were gone within a couple of months. I surmised that they were overheating in the closed fitting and unsuited to it.

That hardly applies to my situation, where the shades and bulbs have been manufactured to go together; as it happens, the bulbs are not enclosed.

I have several CFLs in globes, and there seem to be no problems with them. I wouldn't expect overheating, because CFLs emit very little heat, especially when compared with incandescent bulbs.

A sixth light failed today. I take that as indicating that average lifespan is working out at about 3000 hours, and an annual replacement budget of €90-100.

ttm

alwaysadub wrote: »

No-the GU10 doesn't have a transformer,its the low voltage one that has a transformer.

Take a look at the electronics inside a dead CFL (or google for pictures of CFL's) and let me know what the thing that looks like a transformer actually is

P. Breathnach wrote: »

A sixth light failed today. I take that as indicating that average lifespan is working out at about 3000 hours, and an annual replacement budget of €90-100.

Why aren't you just taking them back for a refund, if you know there's a problem save the reciepts and haul them back to the supplier.

P. Breathnach

ttm wrote: »

... Why aren't you just taking them back for a refund, if you know there's a problem save the reciepts and haul them back to the supplier.

It's a lot of hassle, especially as the supplier is 12 miles away. Then we would have to establish how many failures were "fair" in the sense that some level of failure is inevitable. And this could run for years, as I don't go for changing everything around every couple of years (the previous lighting units were there for about 30 years).

What I am thinking of doing is bringing back the units and demanding full credit on the purchase price (I'd swallow the €30 I have already spent on replacement CFLs) and seeking other units that do not use expensive proprietary CFLs.

alwaysadub

ttm wrote: »

Take a look at the electronics inside a dead CFL (or google for pictures of CFL's) and let me know what the thing that looks like a transformer actually is


.

It's a ballast. A ballast is not a transfomer. A transfomer is used in low voltage fittings,a ballast is used in cfl/flourscent/low energy fittings..


OP what type of fittings are they,are they a pendant type fitting that hangs down or are they track spots or anything?

P. Breathnach

alwaysadub wrote: »

... OP what type of fittings are they,are they a pendant type fitting that hangs down or are they track spots or anything?

Spots. I couldn't quickly find an image of what I have, but this is a similar unit from the same manufacturer: http://www.ebreaker.de/images/015-rollad1-113.jpg. The CFLs have a collar into which the shade is fixed, and that's why I can't use other CFLs.

alwaysadub

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Spots. I couldn't quickly find an image of what I have, but this is a similar unit from the same manufacturer: http://www.ebreaker.de/images/015-rollad1-113.jpg. The CFLs have a collar into which the shade is fixed, and that's why I can't use other CFLs.

Hmm yeah i kinda know the type you're talking about-they're usually made in places like Germany. A lot(but not) all of the time they would have a 2year guarantee. If you still have any packing/info i'd check that out,would make it a lot easier to just bring everything back and replace the lot.
I know with all this new energy legislation being phased in that CFL's will at some stage have to have an actual guaranteed lifetime but i don't think it is actually in place yet. So i think you might find it hard enough to find technical info guaranteeing the lifetime of your fitting/bulbs unless the manufacter's have already got one in place for their own products(some do,some just stick a pile of numbers on the box and hope you're impressed:rolleyes:)
I would ring the place you got it from,tell them the fitting is faulty as it keeps blowing the bulbs,and that you are going to bring them back. I know its a lot of hassle,but after that short length of time you have them they should give you a refund no hassles.

EDIT: I just re-read your post and see you bought them in July-if that was July 09 there are still under guarantee anyway.

P. Breathnach

Unfortunately, the packing and any documentation disappeared: the lights were fitted as part of a renovation project, and the builder was unusually good about clearing up!

You are right about where they came from. They are German, sold under the brand Nino Leuchten. I tried to research them (meaning I used Google a lot) but didn't find anything I could use -- mainly because nearly every site I found was in German, and I can't read German. The boxes in which the bulbs come give 8000h as their life.

You're right: it's a bit of hassle bringing them back, and another bit of hassle finding alternative fittings that are fairly tidy and to our taste. But that's where we are now.

Thanks, everybody, for your inputs.

Sponge Bob

alwaysadub wrote: »

No-the GU10 doesn't have a transformer,its the low voltage one that has a transformer. And bulbs go a lot quicker than transfomers. It doesnt work out cheaper on your ESB bill in the long run using a cheap 50w bulb..

Most CFLs have a transformer in the base. Strictly speaking it is called an electronic ballast and transforms the 50hz mains frequency to 10,000 or 20,000hz and sometimes the voltage from 220v to something else.

It is inside the white ceramic casing in every bulb. There is a difference between a cfl and a ccfl that escapes me.

With a GU10 form the space is really tight for the transformer/ballast , it is very narrow in the base.

Another reason for failures is where you use a CFL and a dimmer switch which would not deliver the full 220v and fry the circuitry that way.

Schematic !!!

alwaysadub

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Most CFLs have a transformer in the base. Strictly speaking it is called an electronic ballast and transforms the 50hz mains frequency to 10,000 or 20,000hz and sometimes the voltage from 220v to something else.

It is inside the white ceramic casing in every bulb. There is a difference between a cfl and a ccfl that escapes me.

With a GU10 form the space is really tight for the transformer/ballast , it is very narrow in the base.

Another reason for failures is where you use a CFL and a dimmer switch which would not deliver the full 220v and fry the circuitry that way.

Schematic !!!

A cold cathode uses a different filiment. Also the lumens are different-can't remember weather they are higher or lower than a cfl.

91011

Within a few months the newer LED GU10 lamps (4.8w) will be stong enough to give the equivalent of 35w halogen.

The are currently available but at about €25, but likewise 6 months ago a standard 1w LED (7watt equiv) was about €10 and is now as low as €3.

If you have a few GU10s think about mixing 35w 20w & some LEDs to bring overall cost down.

Sponge Bob

91011 wrote: »

Within a few months the newer LED GU10 lamps (4.8w) will be stong enough to give the equivalent of 35w halogen.

That 'few months' has been ongoing since about 2005.

I will only ever believe it when the LED manufacturer publishes verifiable performance data ....such as Lumens. It is possible to adequately replace a 20w GU10 with LED but as for 35w and 50w

P. Breathnach

I'm pulling up this old thread to report on progress. The failure count has risen to 9 out of 12.

I delayed dealing with things for a number of reasons (most of which had nothing to do with the problem: life gets in the way). There was a matter that could be vexing, in that if the units came down we would need to find replacements that suited us. I found some in various showrooms, but they all seemed to have proprietary or uncommon bulbs, and I didn't want to be caught in a similar trap again. Last week I finally found units that suited us and accepted standard GU10 bulbs (and, as it happens, much cheaper than the units I had bought).

So I finally went back to the supplier and asked what he was prepared to do. Without hesitation, he offered to replace the bulbs, but asked me to return the failed ones so that he could claim from the manufacturer. I pointed out that if they continued to fail at the same rate, it would not be a long-term solution. I suggested that 1 or 2 failures a year would be tolerable. He agreed, and said if there were further failures he would replace them also. Whether I have a free supply for years to come, I cannot say.

One point occurred to me: so far as I can remember, every bulb that failed was one of the originals that came with the units. Perhaps they were part of a faulty batch, and it might be that I will get better performance from the replacements.

I'll give it another 6 months.

Sponge Bob

Report bck in 6 months anyway. Who is this crap manufcturer so we can avoid them ??

Davy

The Phillips ones have a 6, 8 or ten year life guarantee depending on what model you buy.

P. Breathnach

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Report bck in 6 months anyway. Who is this crap manufcturer so we can avoid them ??

Nino Leuchten (I think "leuchten" is German for "lights").

Might I suggest that avoidance policy should include any product with non-standard bulbs?

More information, just in case anybody is interested. I paid €130 each for two six-light units. The potential replacement (come back in six months) would cost me €59 at IKEA (http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/catalog/products/20112412) and uses standard bulbs.

Grumpypants

I have similar problems im always replacing them and they where 4.50 a pop. No i dea why they keep going so im no help there but I found that the local discount store (2euro shop) sells GU10's. 2 for 2 euro. That will ease the pain on the pocket anyway. They have lasted as long as any of the others.

towo1983

Grumpypants wrote: »

I have similar problems im always replacing them and they where 4.50 a pop. No i dea why they keep going so im no help there but I found that the local discount store (2euro shop) sells GU10's. 2 for 2 euro. That will ease the pain on the pocket anyway. They have lasted as long as any of the others.

Standard GU10 will have an average life of 1000-2000hrs, no longer than an standard incendescent. Considering most will have 5, 6, 7 or more GU10s in one room, it can seem like you are forever replacing them.

IKEA sells a 4 pack of GU10 (1000hr) for €3.49. Manufactured by Osram. They will also launch a CFL GU10 later this year.