Licensing laws

Sulmac

The Mayor of Limerick, Kevin Kiely (FG), has called for the law prohibiting alcohol sales on Good Friday and Christmas Day to be scrapped.

Limerick Mayor supports license law changes
Saturday, 6 March 2010 23:18

The Mayor of Limerick has called for a change in the licensing laws which prohibit the sale of alcohol on Good Friday and Christmas Day.

Kevin Kiely said his immediate concern was to ensure that pubs and restaurants are allowed to sell alcohol this coming Good Friday.

The Leinster versus Munster rugby match at Thomond Park, scheduled for that day, is a sell-out.

Mayor Kiely met with representatives of the Vintners' Federation yesterday.

He has written a letter of support to accompany their application to the local District Court to provide an exemption for the day of the match.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0306/limerick.html

What does everyone here think about our current licensing laws?

In my opinion, there should be 24-hour licensing - though obviously, pubs and clubs could choose to close whenever they wanted (if at all) and restrictions could be put in place for premises in certain locations (such as very residential areas, or near schools, whatever). I'd also allow alcohol to be sold on Good Friday and Christmas Day (any day, really) - two days when there would be a huge volume of trade for them.

At the very least, drastic overhaul of the system is needed. If not 24-hours, at least have staggered closing hours - some places closing later than others. Having thousands of drunken people pouring into the streets (and fast food outlets) at the same time clearly creates problems. Even by delaying opening hours by half an hour in some places could make a difference.

SeanW

+1 to the above.

Eliot Rosewater

Agreed.

The Good Friday and Christmas Day prohibition policy should be scrapped, if only in the interest of secularism. I would also remove all timing restrictions on licensing. In my opinion its up to individuals to decide when they want to drink.

The current law is an attempt at controlling drunkenness, presumably, yet I'm not convinced it has any major effect. The biggest drinkers out there are probably students. The argument against 24 hours licensing is that they will drink 'til 5 in the morning until they are hospitalized. With what money? And with what stamina? I think that legislation like this isn't designed to hold up to scrutiny; rather, it is expected to be taken at face value by some conservative voting bloc who will then praise the Governments social conscience.

The 10am law falls into this category. I think the rationale behind it was some attempt at curbing underage drinking. This is ridiculous as underage drinkers need to plan ahead and will rarely be acquiring their alcohol so late in the night. But all that matters is that the Government be seen to be doing something.

monkey9

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Agreed.

The Good Friday and Christmas Day prohibition policy should be scrapped, if only in the interest of secularism. I would also remove all timing restrictions on licensing. In my opinion its up to individuals to decide when they want to drink.

The current law is an attempt at controlling drunkenness, presumably, yet I'm not convinced it has any major effect. The biggest drinkers out there are probably students. The argument against 24 hours licensing is that they will drink 'til 5 in the morning until they are hospitalized. With what money? And with what stamina? I think that legislation like this isn't designed to hold up to scrutiny; rather, it is expected to be taken at face value by some conservative voting bloc who will then praise the Governments social conscience.

The 10am law falls into this category. I think the rationale behind it was some attempt at curbing underage drinking. This is ridiculous as underage drinkers need to plan ahead and will rarely be acquiring their alcohol so late in the night. But all that matters is that the Government be seen to be doing something.

That's it in a nutshell. The government comes up with these laws and bans or whatever with no thought behind it, they hardly even care of the outcome that these new laws will bring.

All they want is something to point at and say 'look, we dealt with the issue. We acted upon it'. But it means absolutely nothing. The ten o clock rule is so lazy and unproductive and does nothing to bring about whatever aims they were reaching for!!

What difference will it make to society if someone buys drink at eight in the morning or ten past ten at night??

If someone wants to drink early in the morning, they'll make sure they have drink already anyway!

cavedave

The limitation in number, for instance, of beer and spirit-houses, for the express purpose of rendering them more difficult of access, and diminishing the occasions of temptation, not only exposes all to an inconvenience because there are some by whom the facility would be abused, but is suited only to a state of society in which the laboring classes are avowedly treated as children or savages

John Stuart Mill in on liberty

Liam Byrne

Ideally, there would be feck-all "opening hours", with places open as needs be.

But lots of Irish people have a stupid attitude to drink......."last orders" is a call to buy 2 or 3, so as to stock up, and some people view a night out by how little they can remember the following morning.

I'd love to see a responsible attitude to drink in this country.

gandalf

Good Friday has been a joke for years tbh and it should be scrapped.

However I would prefer that we have one day off a year so I would be in favour of leaving Christmas Day as is.

In principle I wouldn't have a problem with a 24hour licensing law with some restrictions. A maximum trading timescale of 8-12 hours for businesses and restrictions of those in or near residential areas. The one major problem with this is our attitude as a nation to alcohol. We have an Anglicised attitude in this country of drinking so we can get drunk quickly. Until we grow up a bit more then a 24 hour licensing law may not be worthwhile considering.

HalloweenJack

I'd be for some sort of system where nightclubs and pubs stay open later.

The fact that all the nightclubs close around half two means everyone crams more drinks into a shorter space of time to get drunk as quick as possible. If they were open to six, like in Spain, or even until four, the drinking period would be extended and people wouldn't go on mad drinking sprees in shorter periods.

The more time you have between drinks, the more time your body has to digest the alcohol and you don't get as drunk.

Imo, it makes more sense to extend the opening hours. People can only drink so much. It's better to spread it out than to cram it into a shorter time period.

jimmycrackcorm

`+1. However I think that the 24 hour licencing is something we should actually try out as I believe a lot of the problems stem from the limits. Some much of the public disorder is as a result of everyone piling out from pubs and clubs at the same time. - So why restrict it - and even the curtailment of selling alcohol at 10pm - I just don't get it...

Liam Byrne

HalloweenJack wrote: »

The fact that all the nightclubs close around half two means everyone crams more drinks into a shorter space of time to get drunk as quick as possible.

And therein is the problem....the attitude, not the hours.

Why would anyone want to "get drunk", let alone "get drunk as quick as possible" ?

Getting drunk should be a side-effect of a good night, not an aim in itself.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And therein is the problem....the attitude, not the hours.

Why would anyone want to "get drunk", let alone "get drunk as quick as possible" ?

Getting drunk should be a side-effect of a good night, not an aim in itself.

I don't think anyone is going to be able to change peoples attitudes to drink in Ireland, no matter what they do...

HalloweenJack

trapsagenius wrote: »

I don't think anyone is going to be able to change peoples attitudes to drink in Ireland, no matter what they do...

Exactly. I think it'd be better to accomodate the attitude.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

I don't think anyone is going to be able to change peoples attitudes to drink in Ireland, no matter what they do...

Some people's attitude.

And while I - genuinely - don't want to end up insulting anyone personally, I do think it's a crazy attitude.

I can't think of anything worse than a night deliberately getting drunk.

And I hope I don't get called anything for that view; I've no problem with a fun night with 2 shandies and heading home, or with a few and a laugh, or even a night that ends up being fun and going on longer, to the point where you get drunk as a side-effect - all fine by me, and all have happened numerous times over the past 20-odd years.

But you wouldn't eat so much that you felt sick the following day, so why set out to drink that much ?

It makes no sense to me.

Maybe I'm not Irish.

jayboi

I think the licensing laws should stay as they are,

we Irish have a world renowned reputation for being extremely fond of drink and getting drunk we have two days a year in which we legally cant buy alcohol,
what’s wrong with showing some sort restraint for these two days.

I think we really need to tackle the drinking culture in this country,
maybe some effort could be made at secondary school to show future generations that there’s more to life than getting pissed the whole time.

Biggins

Another example of church and state separation possible.
About time this law too was changed.

zootroid

jayboi wrote: »

I think the licensing laws should stay as they are,

we Irish have a world renowned reputation for being extremely fond of drink and getting drunk we have two days a year in which we legally cant buy alcohol,
what’s wrong with showing some sort restraint for these two days.

I think we really need to tackle the drinking culture in this country,
maybe some effort could be made at secondary school to show future generations that there’s more to life than getting pissed the whole time.

First of all, people simply stock up on beer for Good Friday, which is hardly showing restraint.

Second of all, I object to not being allowed to by beer on a certain day because of other people's religious beliefs. We are supposed to live in a republic, where everyone is treated equally irregardless of religion. Church and state should be seperate, yet here is a law that is based around one religion, Catholicism. That is not right.

I agree that this country has a serious drinking culture / problem. But leaving the laws the way they are will not help things. I would also be in favour of staggered closing times, and enforcing the laws concerning the sale of alcohol to drunk people.

Liam Byrne

Biggins wrote: »

Another example of church and state separation possible.
About time this law too was changed.

I've no time for the link between church and state, so yes, that should be separated.

But if it's time THAT attitude changed, then the people demanding that should also accept that it's time the "it's OK to get messily and annoyingly pissed out of their tree, rowdy and obnoxious, and piss or puke in a doorway on the way home" ALSO need to change their attitude.

thebman

If not 24 hour opening times then I'd make off-licenses open from about 6PM until about 1AM everyday of the week.

I can understand not wanting drunks on the street all the time with constant access to alcohol but most sensible drinkers do so in the evenings as we work during the day.

Although this would negatively effect shift workers so easiest thing to do would be to have 24 hours and lets show the world we don't spend all the opening hours in their stocking up for our boozing sessions :-/

The whole thing makes no sense really. Open them for an hour a day, an alcoholic will still get enough to be drunk all day. The government want to appear to be doing something and annoy half the population in doing so.

Biggins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I've no time for the link between church and state, so yes, that should be separated.

But if it's time THAT attitude changed, then the people demanding that should also accept that it's time the "it's OK to get messily and annoyingly pissed out of their tree, rowdy and obnoxious, and piss or puke in a doorway on the way home" ALSO need to change their attitude.

100% agree.

gizmo555

Never did get the thing about Good Friday closing. Even for a believer, there's no merit in abstaining because you have to. Surely it's more virtuous to have the drink available and not drink it all the same?

As for Christmas Day, I think there's a better argument for that - it's fair enough that bar staff should have that day off to spend with their families like the rest of us. Pulling pints hardly counts as an essential service.

ei.sdraob

jayboi wrote: »

I think the licensing laws should stay as they are,

we Irish have a world renowned reputation for being extremely fond of drink and getting drunk we have two days a year in which we legally cant buy alcohol,
what’s wrong with showing some sort restraint for these two days.

I think we really need to tackle the drinking culture in this country,
maybe some effort could be made at secondary school to show future generations that there’s more to life than getting pissed the whole time.

you must be new here in Ireland
these few days when we cant buy drinks are preceded by the busiest drink trading days of the year
people just go crazy stocking up on drink in anticipation of these mini prohibition days


like (soft) drugs such as cannabis, the issue is not the act of people taking a substance (alcohol/cannabis/mdma)

the issue for society is having people in an "intoxicate/drugged" state causing harm and damage to society and property (and themselves i suppose)

the current policies towards drink and drugs is all backwards

who is this

gizmo555 wrote: »

Never did get the thing about Good Friday closing. Even for a believer, there's no merit in abstaining because you have to. Surely it's more virtuous to have the drink available and not drink it all the same?

As for Christmas Day, I think there's a better argument for that - it's fair enough that bar staff should have that day off to spend with their families like the rest of us. Pulling pints hardly counts as an essential service.

I think that's fallacious. I mean even Tesco (Clarehall anyway), which as far as I know NEVER closes otherwise, closes on Christmas day. You can't assume "Well, they would if they could". It may seem humorous to use Tesco as a counterexample, but given that it otherwise has even greater opening hours than bars/off licences, I think it illustrates my point well.

Hotel staff have to work on Christmas day, at least some of them. No one is saying hotels should be shut for it, or complaining of the injustice of their not having a day off. Not everyone wants to celebrate to Christmas with their family because not everyone wants to celebrate Christmas. Most Chinese would no doubt much rather work on Christmas and be guaranteed having Chinese NY/Spring Festival off, doesn't mean it happens. The State isn't supposed to favour anyone, not even a majority, most of all in terms of religion, so it's not as though such a suggestion is unreasonable.

Also, I recall a few years ago in Galway (or Limerick or some urban centre in the west, which exactly isn't important), some restaurant got charged for serving a man a glass of wine on good Friday, and the district court refused to prosecute them because she felt it was almost definitely unconstitutional, or something like that.

djpbarry

jayboi wrote: »

we Irish have a world renowned reputation for being extremely fond of drink and getting drunk we have two days a year in which we legally cant buy alcohol, what’s wrong with showing some sort restraint for these two days.

Restraint? I'm guessing that Christmas Day represents one of the biggest drinking sessions of the year in this country.

As for our 'reputation', the US has a reputation for being one of the fattest nations in the world - should American fast food outlets be forced to close for a couple of days per year to attempt to counteract this?

Biggins

jayboi wrote: »

I think the licensing laws should stay as they are,

we Irish have a world renowned reputation for being extremely fond of drink and getting drunk we have two days a year in which we legally cant buy alcohol,
what’s wrong with showing some sort restraint for these two days.

To be honest, what's wrong with showing some restraint any day?
Why is 2/3 days enforced upon us to do so (unintentionally?) !
Is this not just another example of the "nanny state" kicking in and mixed up with religion too to boot?

jayboi

Im not sure some people are getting my argument but what i was getting at is basically are people only interested in getting the extra days licensing on good Friday because they:
have an extras day drinking in the pub?
believe its to do with religion and we're trying to get away from that?
Don’t like government regulation?

I don’t think you can compare an Irish person being labelled as a drunk and an American person being labelled as fat in this instance.
Im not sure anyone has ever had an orgy of big Mcs and tore up the town kicking in windows and people along the way. One is dangerous to themselves and the other is a danger to those around them.

thebman

jayboi wrote: »

Im not sure some people are getting my argument but what i was getting at is basically are people only interested in getting the extra days licensing on good Friday because they:
have an extras day drinking in the pub?
believe its to do with religion and we're trying to get away from that?
Don’t like government regulation?

I don’t think you can compare an Irish person being labelled as a drunk and an American person being labelled as fat in this instance.
Im not sure anyone has ever had an orgy of big Mcs and tore up the town kicking in windows and people along the way. One is dangerous to themselves and the other is a danger to those around them.

Its the symbol it represents that one we are a catholic nation and force those traditions on all citizens regardless of their beliefs and that the government feels it must be authoritarian because it can't trust its citizens to behave responsibly.

This is the wrong message to send to anyone on the island IMO. Its not just on this issue, it is but one of a number of areas that need reform because of what what they symbolise.

gerire

Just in relation to the request to the lads from Limerick they may get away wit it under Section 10 Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962: Once the local publicans agree to it, they could actually get it through

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, where, on application to a Justice of the District Court by the holder of a licence in respect of premises situate in any locality not in the county borough of Dublin, it is shown to the satisfaction of the Court that the application has the approval of a majority of the holders of licences in respect of premises so situate and is in respect of a period during which a special event or special events will take place in or near that locality of such kind that, in the opinion of the Court, the period will be one during which a considerable number of persons will be likely to be attracted to that locality, the Court, if it is satisfied that it is desirable to do so for the accommodation of those persons, may, after hearing the officer in charge of the Garda Síochána for that locality, make an order, subject to such conditions as it thinks proper, exempting the holders of licences in respect of premises so situate from the provisions of the Licensing Acts relating to prohibited hours in respect of those premises at such times and on such days during the period as it thinks fit: provided that, where the period aforesaid exceeds nine days, the exemption shall be limited to such times and days as it thinks fit during a period or periods (not exceeding three) comprising in all not more than nine days.
[GA]

Ste.phen

gerire wrote: »

Just in relation to the request to the lads from Limerick they may get away wit it under Section 10 Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962: Once the local publicans agree to it, they could actually get it through

Why doesn't Dublin get included in that? rabble rabble rabble

djpbarry

jayboi wrote: »

Im not sure some people are getting my argument but what i was getting at is basically are people only interested in getting the extra days licensing on good Friday because they:
have an extras day drinking in the pub?

Like most people in this country, I sometimes go for a pint on a Friday evening. Or maybe I buy a few beers on my way home from work on a Friday, put my feet up and watch a movie at home. Or maybe I’d like to go to a football match and head for a quiet pint afterwards. Why should I or anyone else be refused permission to do this on one particular Friday of the year?

jayboi wrote: »

believe its to do with religion and we're trying to get away from that?

Yes, it’s essentially a case of forcing Catholic belief on the entire populace, which does bother me.

jayboi wrote: »

Don’t like government regulation?

No. I (like most people) accept that regulation is necessary.

jayboi wrote: »

I don’t think you can compare an Irish person being labelled as a drunk and an American person being labelled as fat in this instance.

My point is that basing public policy on national stereotypes is probably not a wise approach.

jayboi wrote: »

Im not sure anyone has ever had an orgy of big Mcs and tore up the town kicking in windows and people along the way.

But obesity is a serious national health problem in many countries, is it not? Should regulatory efforts not be made to curb the consumption of fast food to combat the problem?

As regards alcohol-fuelled social disorder, I’d be of the opinion that individuals who involve themselves in such activities are of a particular mindset, drunk or sober. Besides, as has already been mentioned, forcing every premises in the country to close at exactly the same time on a Friday/Saturday night doesn’t strike me as a well thought-out strategy to deal with such problems. More stringent enforcement of existing laws (and perhaps attempts to reduce public apathy towards such behaviour) would be a more practical solution.

As for how to alter the general British/Irish attitude towards alcohol - the first step is trying to understand why (some) people feel the need to drink as they do. Personally, I’ve never understood it. Being hung-over is not an experience I want to repeat on a weekly basis, so I’m at a loss as to why a large chunk of the population strives to render itself so completely unfit for any purpose at least once a week through the consumption of such vile concoctions as Jägerbombers and Fat Frogs. Why people? Why?

Actually, here’s a potentially controversial idea - tax the hell out of beverages such as those mentioned above (which are obviously designed to get the consumer as drunk as possible in as short a time as possible) and put the proceeds towards nocturnal law enforcement.

syklops

djpbarry wrote: »

Actually, here’s a potentially controversial idea - tax the hell out of beverages such as those mentioned above (which are obviously designed to get the consumer as drunk as possible in as short a time as possible) and put the proceeds towards nocturnal law enforcement.

Alcohol is already taxed upto the hilt. As for the comment put the proceeds towards nocturnal law enforcement., thats a phrase that gets used anytime a new tax is talked about. Like water rates which will go to the upkeep and maintenance of our water system. If people honestly believed that is where the money would go, then I think most people would agree with it. Unfortunately it wont go to that, it will go into the never-ending blackhole which is Fianna Fails finances.

Like the tax on cigarettes. Many people believe the extra money taxed on cigarettes goes to fund the hospitals where lung cancer patients are a drain on hospital resources. If only this were true we could have the best cancer wards in the world with the amount of revenue gained from the tax on cigarettes. Instead the money goes into the money pit and ends up bailling out banks, and funding Limos and first-class flights for the St patricks day junkets.

I live in the czech republic where many bars and clubs have 24 hour licensing, and most others have late opening(3 or 4), yet you do not see hoards of young people drunk. You do see people drunk, but its a different kind of drunkenness. Its more of a "Sh*t Im wasted Im going home", not a "How loud can I sing or How much of a flippin eejit can i make myself look". One of the reasons i believe for this is the very visible police presence. All the time, day and night you will see a pair of cops on patrol, and if you are drunk and or disorderly on the street you are arrested. Not brought to A and E like in Ireland but into a cell. Probably not a solitary one either.

The fear of being brought to a czech cell for the night would be enough to dissuade anyone from being drunk and disorderly.

We already have everything in place to deal with potential problems resulting from 24 licenses. We just need to enforce the laws we have.

partyguinness

I am 99% certain that an exemption cannot be granted for Good Friday even if the Judge wanted to...the licensing law is quiet clear i.e. no exemptions for Good Friday or Christmas day. It is specifically stated in the legislation so only legislation can remove it.