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What convinved you that there was/wasn`t "something else"?
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Just out of curiosity....how come you aren't Catholic then? You seem to believe the story of the three children that Mary appeared and spoke Catholic doctrine to them and then performed a miracle later on.....
So either it was Mary (who only is only believed to appear by Catholics) who then went on to confirm Catholicism is the way to go...... Or do you believe that it was some sort of "spirit" or something that was just pretending to be the virgin Mary and confirming Catholic doctirine as some sort of big meta joke on everybody?
My own opinion of "the miracle of the sun" would be similar to my opinion of "the miracle of the sun" at knock recently. This following applies to both instances.
First of all, not everybody witnessed the same thing, as you claimed. Some claimed to witness images of Mary and/or Jesus. Lot's claimed only to see the Sun change shape and colour, others claimed the Sun spun and grew. Again others, even many die hard Catholics, claimed to see nothing at all.
Secondly we come to why anyone saw anything at all. Is there any reason why a bunch of people in a field staring straight into the sun would see things, apart from Mary or God suspending the laws of physics temorarily to prove that three little girls weren't telling fibs or mistaken. Well one other explanation is that 70,000 mostly deeply religious people were gathered together creating an immense atmosphere and were told to expect a message from the creator of the universe. They were then instructed to stare directly into the Sun.
If you are feeling adventurous and open minded, here is a little experiment you could try. Buy a red lightbulb somewhere, (clear red glass not frosted) they will probably have them in Woodies or somewhere similar. Then when it's dark put it into a lamp in a room and turn off any other light. Now stare at the lit up bulb for about a minute or two. The lightbulb will seem to change colour from red to green to yellow ect. It might also seem to pulse in and out as if it is breathing. Or spin and shift shape. You might even see faces or buildings or pyramids in the bulb. It's a common phenomenom. And a less damaging way to replicate the things you could see by staring at the sun.
Now imagine you lived in a deeply religious country and were standing in a field amongst thousands of excited fervent praying people after being told that the supreme being of the universe was going to make a appearance and then being subject to the natural phosphene phenomenom (without being aware that the phenomenon existed) that results when someone stars into a bright light for too long and then hearing the screams and gasps of "the Sun is falling!!!" and "I can see Jesus" from a lot of people around you........You think there is any chance you might come away thinking you had witnessed a miracle when it could have been something else?
Now I'm not saying for an absolute fact that Mary didn't chose 3 little Portugese girls to appear to without anyone around to verify their story and then God didn't take time out of his day to make it seem like the Sun was jumping all over the sky, but only to the people near the sight and not to everyone else in the hemisphere who could see the same Sun at the same time. But only decided to make it seem that way to some people that were there and not others, and chose to make the people that did see things see slightly different things...........
But maybe there is another, non magical explanation........?
i am a catholic (born),
i just don't go to mass or believe in a lot of the rites/rhetoric of the catholic church.
I'm not religous but i believe in an ethereal/greater being/"something"
if there wasn't "something" then whats the point?
i never said i believed anything.
the miracle of the sun
why do people pickholes in one story and ignore the other ,sometimes more infallible cases?
SECONDLY......if they stared directly into the sun why aren't they blind?????
Thirdly.
maybe there is another explanation.
faith-belief and the mind are a powerful triumvirate.0 -
munsterdevil wrote: »Lourdes, this miracle was claimed in 1858 by a very impressionable young girl and i mean very impressionable
Also, Lourdes gets roughly 80,000 people who hope to be cured every year. Now out of this annual number, a combined total from down through the years who claim to have been cured is 66. Compare 66 people out of the millions who have travelled to Lourdes wishing for a cure and gets the picture of how ridiculous the whole concept is. it also asks the question as to why the vast majority weren't cured, did god or the Virgin Mary not like them?
Moreover, you never hear of somebody growing a limb back, it's always something that had a chance of getting better anyway. The chances are that whoever goes there hoping for a cure is going to catch something from the thousands of other people wallowing in the water, rather than be cured of something.
how the hell do you know how impressionable somebody was 150 years ago:rolleyes:
its more like 500,000 looking to be cured.
up to 1975 there were 63 'cures' i.e. cures accepted by the church./
proclaimed authentic by the Church, which has a rigorous system for confirming them. There must be medical proof that the sick person was indeed sick to begin with, that the symptoms disappeared within hours, and that the cure lasted for several years
whats this about limbs growing back??....is that your criteria for a miracle???
there are animals on this planet who do re-grow limbs,are they "miracles" to you????
i personally know of 12 people who have travelled to lourdes and come back healthier/better/less sick.
maybe not 'cured' in the churchs eyes but better nonetheless.
is this down to
holy water,??
god,???
who knows?
I believe people have the power to help themselves,even unbeknownst to themselves.
Faith,belief and and complete reverence of a 'thing' can produce "miraculous" results imo.
there is one undeniable fact.
nobody ever got sick the day they fell in love.
*what does that tell you*0 -
Well I obviously don't believe that the "virgin" mary appeared to her, and the flip side to this is, how the hell do you know that mary appeared to her.:rolleyes:how the hell do you know how impressionable somebody was 150 years ago:rolleyes:
Way better off going to a doctor or hospital besides relying on this rigorous system:rolleyes:its more like 500,000 looking to be cured.
up to 1975 there were 63 'cures' i.e. cures accepted by the church./
proclaimed authentic by the Church, which has a rigorous system for confirming them. There must be medical proof that the sick person was indeed sick to begin with, that the symptoms disappeared within hours, and that the cure lasted for several years[/SIZE][/B]
I'm talking about humans growing back limbs, it has nothing to do with other creatures. The question is, if somebody can be miraculously cured why cant something like a limb grow back? SUrely if an all powerful being can cure someone of a disease it could make an amputated leg grow back? Or is this too hard for it:Dwhats this about limbs growing back??....is that your criteria for a miracle???
there are animals on this planet who do re-grow limbs,are they "miracles" to you????
Chances are they would have got better anyway :rolleyes:i personally know of 12 people who have travelled to lourdes and come back healthier/better/less sick.
maybe not 'cured' in the churchs eyes but better nonetheless.
is this down to
holy water,??
god,???
who knows?
Where is your evidence for that a day a person fell in love nobody got sick? bearing in mind that they are 6 billion people on the planet and the billions of people that have gone before us,:rolleyes:there is one undeniable fact.
nobody ever got sick the day they fell in love.
*what does that tell you*0 -
i am a catholic (born),
i just don't go to mass or believe in a lot of the rites/rhetoric of the catholic church.
I'm not religous but i believe in an ethereal/greater being/"something"
if there wasn't "something" then whats the point?
i never said i believed anything.
If you are Catholic then you are religious, Catholicism is a religion. Do you mean you are not devoutly religious?
"if there wasn't "something" then whats the point?".....Why does there have to be a point? But if you need a "point" then how about making the best of your life while you are alive, and making the lives of the people you care about better while they are alive. Seems like a pretty good "point" to me.the miracle of the sun
why do people pick holes in one story and ignore the other ,sometimes more infallible cases?
The miracle of the sun is what the event in Portugal you referenced is known as. Hope that helps with the confusion.
What infallible cases? You spoke of one story and I pointed out the holes in it. If you are aware of another infallible story then please name it and I will consider it's possibility on it's own merits. Surely you don't expect me to just accept your word that an infallible instance of a miracle occuring exists?SECONDLY......if they stared directly into the sun why aren't they blind?????
Go outside and stare at the sun...........Are you back? Did you go blind? There is your answer.
Please don't actually go stare at the sun, there is a good chance you will suffer retinopathy, like some of the people who stared at the sun in knock.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1202/1224259894300.htmlThirdly.
maybe there is another explanation.
faith-belief and the mind are a powerful triumvirate.
Ahh common ground at last.
Now the only difference of opinion that remains between us is you think it is just as likely that the all powerful creator of time space and matter decided to reveal himself to a group of random people through a means which could easily be confused with a naturaly occuring and proven phenomenom........as it is likely that a bunch of people got carried away with themselves and confused the natural phenomenom for something else. 0 -
munsterdevil wrote: »Well I obviously don't believe that the "virgin" mary appeared to her, and the flip side to this is, how the hell do you know that mary appeared to her.:rolleyes:
re-read the info i posted earlier.
less of the roll eyes please:rolleyes:its more like 500,000 looking to be cured.
up to 1975 there were 63 'cures' i.e. cures accepted by the church./
Way better off going to a doctor or hospital besides relying on this rigorous system:rolleyes:
they did go to hospital,they were checked out medically,they were cured.
still don't believe?
I'm talking about humans growing back limbs, it has nothing to do with other creatures. The question is, if somebody can be miraculously cured why cant something like a limb grow back? SUrely if an all powerful being can cure someone of a disease it could make an amputated leg grow back? Or is this too hard for it:D
you're talking about humans because its convenient,if i showed you a human who regrew an arm,chances are you'd dismiss it as some sort of scientific abnormality.
Chances are they would have got better anyway :rolleyes:
what are you a gambler now:mad:
how the fuk can you make a statement like that about people i know and you've never met
it beggars belief-it seems no prrof is enough for you.
your moniker is pretty apt.
g'night.
Where is your evidence for that a day a person fell in love nobody got sick? bearing in mind that they are 6 billion people on the planet and the billions of people that have gone before us,:rolleyes:
its a saying- and a true one @ that.
whether youbelieve it or not.
if i was to prove it to you i guess you'd be the exception to the rule
as an aside-anybody i've mentioned that to in the last 20 years has smiled and nodded their head in agreement.
not one has disagreed/questioned it
except you.
btw what are you studying in college?
why don't you have any faith?0 -
mmmmmIf you are Catholic then you are religious, Catholicism is a religion. Do you mean you are not devoutly religious?
i don't practice/participate go to mass etc.
so i consider myself non religous.
"if there wasn't "something" then whats the point?".....Why does there have to be a point? But if you need a "point" then how about making the best of your life while you are alive, and making the lives of the people you care about better while they are alive. Seems like a pretty good "point" to me.
i agree;)
but, whats the point of (in relative terms) of our time on earth as a species.?
if there is no ever after/afterlife-why do humans worship/learn/adapt/create/destroy the way we do.?
100 years may as well be planck time.
did humans just hit the evolutionary jackpot?
The miracle of the sun is what the event in Portugal you referenced is known as. Hope that helps with the confusion.
What infallible cases? You spoke of one story and I pointed out the holes in it. If you are aware of another infallible story then please name it and I will consider it's possibility on it's own merits. Surely you don't expect me to just accept your word that an infallible instance of a miracle occuring exists?
re-read my other posts and the ref. material.:)
Go outside and stare at the sun...........Are you back? Did you go blind? There is your answer.
now thats just ridiculous.
Please don't actually go stare at the sun, there is a good chance you will suffer retinopathy, like some of the people who stared at the sun in knock.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1202/1224259894300.html
jaysus its in the times...must be true so.
Ahh common ground at last. Now the only difference of opinion that remains between us is you think it is just as likely that the all powerful creator of time space and matter decided to reveal himself to a group of random people through a means which could easily be confused with a naturaly occuring and proven phenomenom. EH NO
.......as it is likely that a bunch of people got carried away with themselves and confused the natural phenomenom for something else.-Repeatedly,across continents?
in remote area's?
telling similar stories?0 -
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stuff........i don't practice/participate go to mass etc.
so i consider myself non religous.
We obviously have a different opinion on what it means to not be religious. So let's just leave that there.i agree
but, whats the point of (in relative terms) of our time on earth as a species.?
if there is no ever after/afterlife-why do humans worship/learn/adapt/create/destroy the way we do.?
100 years may as well be planck time.
did humans just hit the evolutionary jackpot?
You obviously don't agree, or you missunderstood what you were agreeing to. It is my position that there is no point or reason. It's just how things turned out.
Why do humans worship? Superstition and a need to come to terms with their morality and a reluctance to accept uncomfortable realities.
Why do humans adapt? Evolution and the instinct of self preservation.
Why do humans create? Necessitiy and curiosity.
Why do humans destroy? Necessity and the instincty of self preservation.
Any more questions?re-read my other posts and the ref. material.
I did. Someone recovering from an accident they weren't expected to recover from is unlikely......It is not by any sane human understanding an infallible example of a miracle. Try again.
Did you try it? Did you go blind? That is the same reason the other people that did the same thing didn't go blind. I am just answering the question you asked. What exactly is ridiculous? The fact you dislike that I was able to answer it?now thats just ridiculous.jaysus its in the times...must be true so.
The times is just the first source that popped up on google, they were just the carrier of the doctors words. He was also quoted on about another dozen news sources. You can try to claim the doctor was telling lies if you want, and give your reasons for thinking he is lying.......Would you like to try that?Repeatedly,across continents?
in remote area's?
telling similar stories?
Are you even reading the words of mine you are quoting and replying to? Asked and answered twice already. Re-read the last few posts of the thread.
Edit: Regardless I agree with Dermothickey. This thread is gone far too off topic. This will be my last post in the thread. If you want to continue discussing this I will be happy to do so if you start a thread in the Paranormal forum or somewhere else as suitable.
Watch this video and try to be a little more open minded.
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