Off-Topic

L1011

stephen_n wrote: »

The average family will be between 600-1000 euro a year worse off. A tenner a week would be a gift if that was the truth of it but that has to be reductionism taken to its nth degree. Everyone from pensioners, carers, social welfare recipients, average workers, everyone in fact except high earners! Labour just signed off on a Christian democrat budget so that's exactly who your voting for anyway! Labour will accept anything FG come up with, to protect the farce of Croke Park!

Check out Stephen Donnelys reply to the budget! Intelligent, insightful and more social conscience than the whole Labour Party combined could muster.

I wouldn't vote for Sinn Fein but they are closer to what labour is supposed to be, than what they have become. Champagne socialists and liars!

A tenner a week is how far off 600 a year exactly?

I see you can't actually answer as to who you're going to vote for, then.

If you don't think higher earners have been hit, you need to stop reading our gutter press and actually look at the budget.

stephen_n

MYOB wrote: »

A tenner a week is how far off 600 a year exactly?

I see you can't actually answer as to who you're going to vote for, then.

If you don't think higher earners have been hit, you need to stop reading our gutter press and actually look at the budget.

How were high earners hit in an equivelant sense to the vulnerable in society, how were they even hit compared to the middle class? I drive a twelve year old car worth 1,000 euros yet I will pay the more road tax as someone who just a 70,000 Mercedes and that is fair how? How were those earning over 100k a year effected in the same way as those on minimum wage by this budget?

I made it quite clear who I will vote for actually if you bothered reading my post.

Clearly you are quite well off as I know that €10 or €20 would make a massive difference to me. There are plenty of people living paycheck to paycheck who for that sort of money will probably miss a meal, but sure you keep believing the right wing media bull**** that the rich are paying their fair share!

Doctors and dentists are luxury items for me, yet we will pay 3.5 billion for the debts of the rich, who live on rediculous pensions unaffected by their excess. You sound far more like a Fianna Fáil voter than a labour voter anyway!

Meesared

Stephen Donellys budget has been widely dismissed as completely unworkable, the budget we have is a decent one given the situation we are in.

stephen_n

Meesared wrote: »

Stephen Donellys budget has been widely dismissed as completely unworkable, the budget we have is a decent one given the situation we are in.

Tell that to the family's with sick children who saw the drug payment scheme further increased, while they had their children's allowance cut by the lying Labour Party, who campaigned based on it not being touched.

Who widely dismissed it? As opposed to Stephen Donnelly who is actually a highly qualified economist!

The situation of paying 3.5 billion for failed banks while cutting the same amount out of the budget!

L1011

stephen_n wrote: »

How were high earners hit in an equivelant sense to the vulnerable in society, how were they even hit compared to the middle class? I drive a twelve year old car worth 1,000 euros yet I will pay the more road tax as someone who just a 70,000 Mercedes and that is fair how? How were those earning over 100k a year effected in the same way as those on minimum wage by this budget?

I made it quite clear who I will vote for actually if you bothered reading my post.

Clearly you are quite well off as I know that €10 or €20 would make a massive difference to me. There are plenty of people living paycheck to paycheck who for that sort of money will probably miss a meal, but sure you keep believing the right wing media bull**** that the rich are paying their fair share!

Doctors and dentists are luxury items for me, yet we will pay 3.5 billion for the debts of the rich, who live on rediculous pensions unaffected by their excess. You sound far more like a Fianna Fáil voter than a labour voter anyway!

Tallaght doesn't get to vote for Stephen Donnelly. Are you going to move to Wicklow?

editWe don't have a right-wing media, we have a reactionary media that happens to tie in exactly with the mistruths that you're battering out here.

We would have multiple austerity budgets whether or not there had been a single cent paid to banks. Except you don't appear to accept this.

"The Wealthy" already pay the vast bulk of the tax take in this country and they HAVE been hit with multiple things in this budget - PRSI extensions, pension tax changes, higher property tax, etc. Except you don't appear to accept this.

Vote for idealistic independents with unrealistic proposals; or commonly no proposals at all other than opposition to everything, if you want. Its one way to ensure we stay in an utter mess.

edit: And if you actually cannot afford a tenner a week, you do qualify for a Doctor-Only Medical Card, as that takes in to account housing, transport and childcare costs amongst others in its means test.

Meesared

stephen_n wrote: »

Tell that to the family's with sick children who saw the drug payment scheme further increased, while they had their children's allowance cut by the lying Labour Party, who campaigned based on it not being touched.

Who widely dismissed it? As opposed to Stephen Donnelly who is actually a highly qualified economist!

I use the drug payment scheme, so don't pull that with me. It is a decent budget for the situation were in.

stephen_n

MYOB wrote: »

Tallaght doesn't get to vote for Stephen Donnelly. Are you going to move to Wicklow?

editWe don't have a right-wing media, we have a reactionary media that happens to tie in exactly with the mistruths that you're battering out here.

We would have multiple austerity budgets whether or not there had been a single cent paid to banks. Except you don't appear to accept this.

"The Wealthy" already pay the vast bulk of the tax take in this country and they HAVE been hit with multiple things in this budget - PRSI extensions, pension tax changes, higher property tax, etc. Except you don't appear to accept this.

Vote for idealistic independents with unrealistic proposals; or commonly no proposals at all other than opposition to everything, if you want. Its one way to ensure we stay in an utter mess.

edit: And if you actually cannot afford a tenner a week, you do qualify for a Doctor-Only Medical Card, as that takes in to account housing, transport and childcare costs amongst others in its means test.

The austerity would be far less if (a) we weren't paying 70bn in socialized corporate debt, which massively inflates the imbalance between take and spend and (b) weren't being strangled by the bull**** that is the Croke Park agreement.

Social partnership crippled this country and is continuing to do so. The rich keep their money or get richer, the overpaid and bloated public service gets to keep its money and the private sector workers, low income earners and unemployed get screwed.

While people like you batter out lies, that there is no other way and Austerity is a nessecary evil but we can't tax the wealthy anymore because they already pay most of the tax, they also already earn most of the money too!

I do live in Wicklow, I had moved to Tallaght when I signed up here, to be closer to work but had to move back to Wicklow to be able to afford to rent somewhere reasonable and suitable for my daughters. I'm entitled to nothing as I earn, means testing would suggest I shouldn't pay 800 a month in rent or what I pay in maintenance or that I should get a cheaper car, even though I can't afford to buy a new car as I have no loan on this one. I have little or no personal debt, own nothing worth talking about and have worked for 25 years contributing to this state. I would actually be better off on the dole but I won't do that as I'd prefer to pay my fair share! So excuse me if I think that people who can afford two holidays a year and an 80,000 car should pay a little more tax because I can f**king assure you they didn't work any harder than I do to get it! But FG/labour think they need protection!

L1011

Once again, you appear to think that someone on 80k

a: isn't already paying far more tax than you, not just a "little more".
b: didn't get hit quite significantly in this budget from multiple angles

If you want to keep your head in the sand, by all means do, but don't pretend that your alternate reality is actually Ireland. You are the one quoting mass mistruths, so you can stop claiming any lies by anyone else.

You are grossly exaggerating the affect of this budget on people (having initially acted as if a tenner a week wasn't much until you realised that is actually the impact on most, for instance) and you also seem to have no comprehension of left- and right-wing.

Also, everyone on a DV-only medical card "earns" (other than the few high-pensioned >70s that'll get it now). That's the entire point of it. It is for people who are in employment and earn too much for a medical card. The income limits are relatively generous and they take in to account a range of expenses. Look in to it before hand-waving it away.

stephen_n

MYOB wrote: »

Once again, you appear to think that someone on 80k

a: isn't already paying far more tax than you, not just a "little more".
b: didn't get hit quite significantly in this budget from multiple angles

If you want to keep your head in the sand, by all means do, but don't pretend that your alternate reality is actually Ireland. You are the one quoting mass mistruths, so you can stop claiming any lies by anyone else.

You are grossly exaggerating the affect of this budget on people (having initially acted as if a tenner a week wasn't much until you realised that is actually the impact on most, for instance) and you also seem to have no comprehension of left- and right-wing.

Clearly your choosing to ignore my point as it is inconvinient, I didn't say someone on 100k (never mentioned 80k, that was a car price) isn't paying more tax than me! But I can assure you they aren't paying 4 or 5 times more tax than me. Those who earn more can afford to pay more, those who earn less shouldn't have to.

You keep spouting on about how the rich were hit in this budget but have failed to give any creedence to that argument what so ever, not one fact point or even issue.

You grossly or maybe just ignorantly underestimate the effect of 10 euro a week on people. Arrogant in the extreme. Do you cling to minimu
effect to give yourself some sort of solace? €10 obviously means very little to someone with a disposable income of hundreds a week, but means a huge, huge amount to those, struggling to put food on the table.

When did I say I was either left or right, my views span both, Labour serve neither, like all political parties in this country they serve themselves. Because I favour social protection I should support and utterly corrupt trade union movement, why? Anyway enjoy the view from your cosy Ivory tower!

L1011

stephen_n wrote: »

Clearly your choosing to ignore my point as it is inconvinient, I didn't say someone on 100k (never mentioned 80k, that was a car price) isn't paying more tax than me! But I can assure you they aren't paying 4 or 5 times more tax than me. Those who earn more can afford to pay more, those who earn less shouldn't have to.

I'm not ignoring "your point" (which appears to be "wah, tax someone else other than me", and nothing more). I've addressed it every time but because it doesn't agree with your selected view, you act as if it wasn't

Those who earn more do pay more, significantly so, and the gap has widened with every single budget.

If someone on 100k is earning 4 to 5 times more than you are, I can assure you they are paying a hell of a lot more than 4 to 5 times more tax. Try 10 times, for starters.

stephen_n wrote: »

You keep spouting on about how the rich were hit in this budget but have failed to give any creedence to that argument what so ever, not one fact point or even issue.

Do even the tiniest bit of research rather than just reading hysterical media reports.

Those on higher incomes have been hammered with every successive budget since 2007. In this budget, they are hit with the changes to the PRSI system, pension tax arrangements, CAT/CGT and DIRT. The amount being handed over has risen out of proportion with that from those on lower incomes - as it has every single budget.

But of course, this doesn't fit with your alternate reality so you're going to ignore it.

stephen_n wrote: »

You grossly or maybe just ignorantly underestimate the effect of 10 euro a week on people. Arrogant in the extreme. Do you cling to minimu
effect to give yourself some sort of solace? €10 obviously means very little to someone with a disposable income of hundreds a week, but means a huge, huge amount to those, struggling to put food on the table.

You initially acted as if a tenner was nothing and the effect was much worse. Why have you changed your tune?

You are completely delusional if you expected this budget to not affect everyone in some way. Its affect on those on lower incomes is extremely, extremely small. Why are you refusing to accept this?

stephen_n wrote: »

When did I say I was either left or right, my views span both, Labour serve neither, like all political parties in this country they serve themselves. Because I favour social protection I should support and utterly corrupt trade union movement, why? Anyway enjoy the view from your cosy Ivory tower!

You never said you were left or right. However, its quite clear that neither is going to satisfy you, as you want some form of fantasyland.

In your fantasyland you can tax high earners until they're not high earners anymore without any risk of capital or tax flight; governments can wave away defecits by blaming it on banks and those on low incomes get given cushions against everything. This is the real world, you may need to join it some time.

L1011

Actually did the calculations. Someone on 100k, PAYE, making zero pension contributions and taking pay deducated taxes only, pays ~4 times as much as someone on 41k.

If you're struggling to the level you claim you are on 41k, you have serious issues that you can't go blaming on the budgetary process. Or are you going to realise you're making bad assumptions?

wonderfulname

Deep breaths guys, let's try keep the tone a little lighter shall we?

Scar Tissue

Hey all, never posted in here, just wanted to share a video that I've been listening to alot recently (love the rapper ), thought the message might be appreciated here

His uncle is gay and that's what influenced him on the whole gay marriage subject alot in his younger years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlVBg7_08n0

First time watching it I had tears in my eyes. Amazing.

stephen_n

MYOB wrote: »

Actually did the calculations. Someone on 100k, PAYE, making zero pension contributions and taking pay deducated taxes only, pays ~4 times as much as someone on 41k.

If you're struggling to the level you claim you are on 41k, you have serious issues that you can't go blaming on the budgetary process. Or are you going to realise you're making bad assumptions?

41k x 4 is 164 or does your alternate reality work on different ratios?


You clearly can't read or don't want to understand what I have posted and have still not come up with anything is this budget that effects the high earners in anything close to a pro-rata effect. So I think I'll leave you too it as you'd be better of reading the daily mail, for reassurance of your views than anything I'd post.

L1011

stephen_n wrote: »

41k x 4 is 164 or does your alternate reality work on different ratios?

Someone on 41k pays approx 10k in payroll taxes
Someone on 100k pays approx 40k in payroll taxes.

This is the point you were trying to make, but with absolutely no comprehension of the figures.

stephen_n wrote: »

So I think I'll leave you too it as you'd be better of reading the daily mail, for reassurance of your views than anything I'd post.

I've never read that rag in my life - my views come from knowing the facts. Whereas yours, it appears, come from Liveline.

L.Jenkins

Ladies and Gentlemen, while the Budget is a hot topic at the moment and yes you all can discuss the unfortunate implications, I will ask you all to be civil. Please, do it for me...

bikeman1

Itzy wrote: »

Ladies and Gentlemen, while the Budget is a hot topic at the moment and yes you all can discuss the unfortunate implications, I will ask you all to be civil. Please, do it for me...

I'm quite enjoying this debate. I'm behind MYOB here. His figures are right. The amount of tax that high earners pay is huge. And rightly so. But to say they don't pay their fair share is wrong.

stephen_n

MYOB wrote: »

Someone on 41k pays approx 10k in payroll taxes
Someone on 100k pays approx 40k in payroll taxes.

This is the point you were trying to make, but with absolutely no comprehension of the figures.



I've never read that rag in my life - my views come from knowing the facts. Whereas yours, it appears, come from Liveline.

My point was someone earning 100k does not pay 4 times more tax than someone on 25k as in earning 4 times as much! Maybe go back and read what I asked. Even at that they would still end up with 4 times as much money at the end of it.

You speak of knowing facts but don't deal in them. You stated this budget was hard on high earners but when I asked for the facts to support your statement you can't provide them! You list the effects of previous budgets but not this one. The only one you referenced was PRSI which actually changed in this budget but that effects everyone regardless of earning level.

You try and belittle and dismiss my opinions at every turn as having no basis but you have failed to present anything to backup your views in anyway. You speak about reality but have no concept of what it is.

If you can make a point based on facts and actually in line with what I have posted, rather than what you think I posted then this might be worth continuing but failing that I won't respond to you again!

L1011

Someone on 100k pays 10 times as much tax as someone on 25k.

Do some figures before making claims

Meesared

Sorry but what you're saying makes zero sense, given that someone on 100k pays 40k in tax, you're saying that someone on 25k pays more than 10k tax a year?

Sit back and think about that for a moment.

Ok, so I'm on around 23k a year, I pay around 2-2.5k tax a year, so yes someone on 100k is paying much more than 10 times tax than me.

stephen_n

Meesared wrote: »

Sorry but what you're saying makes zero sense, given that someone on 100k pays 40k in tax, you're saying that someone on 25k pays more than 10k tax a year?

Sit back and think about that for a moment.

Ok, so I'm on around 23k a year, I pay around 2-2.5k tax a year, so yes someone on 100k is paying much more than 10 times tax than me.

That's the one dimensional view of it, take 1 euro off someone who who has 10 does it make the same difference as taking that 1 euro off someone who has 100? I didn't really make my point very clearly in fairness and allowed myself to get frustrated. I'm trying to make the point of the relative effects and that those who earn more and have more, should pay a higher burden as they can afford too. Society requires those at the lower end to spend, to function and create wealth for those at the top. That can only work if those at the top pay their fair share!

jaffacakesyum

stephen_n wrote: »

That's the one dimensional view of it, take 1 euro off someone who who has 10 does it make the same difference as taking that 1 euro off someone who has 100? I didn't really make my point very clearly in fairness and allowed myself to get frustrated. I'm trying to make the point of the relative effects and that those who earn more and have more, should pay a higher burden as they can afford too. Society requires those at the lower end to spend, to function and create wealth for those at the top. That can only work if those at the top pay their fair share!

They ARE paying their fare share though and in the examples above up 10 times more tax than those lower/middle income earners. I 100% agree with you that high earners should pay more tax than the poor but they're doing that already and have had increases in tax, budget after budget. Why do you still begrudge them? I am just a poor student yet I agree that high earners are paying their way and should not be raped anymore. Why should they pay for the mess of this country? They chose to go to college, get educated, go down their respective career paths. They chose to be doctors, lawyers, businessmen etc. and so take the high wages that come with those challenging and in-demand careers.

Everybody has to take cuts. And everybody is. I'm sick of everyone giving out about the budgets, basically wanting the government to tax/cut anybody but themselves. OF COURSE, higher earners, despite high cuts, will have more disposable income at the end of it than you, but tough luck. It's not their problem that they earn more than you or I.

Annasopra

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

They ARE paying their fare share though

Are they really?

There's a huge amount been thrown around in this thread. Claim and Counter claim have been made but I've seen almost no evidence for any of the claims

Here is some evidence that backs up exactly what Stephen is saying

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0224/1224312309019.html

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2012/07/raising-the-floor.html

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2012/07/bathing-the-rich.html

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/03/27/2010-survey-of-income-and-living-conditions/

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I 100% agree with you that high earners should pay more tax than the poor but they're doing that already and have had increases in tax, budget after budget. Why do you still begrudge them? I am just a poor student yet I agree that high earners are paying their way and should not be raped anymore. Why should they pay for the mess of this country? They chose to go to college, get educated, go down their respective career paths. They chose to be doctors, lawyers, businessmen etc. and so take the high wages that come with those challenging and in-demand careers.

It's nothing to do with begrudgery at all.

I actually view it in terms of justice - those who can afford to pay more should pay more - while there is a massive inequality of extreme poverty and extreme wealth then is simply unjust.

Meesared

The whole PAYE system is based on the fact that if you earn more you pay more tax, that is how it works!

Annasopra

Meesared wrote: »

The whole PAYE system is based on the fact that if you earn more you pay more tax, that is how it works!

And the PDs basically savaged the income tax system by reducing it so low and making the country rely on property taxes as a source of income and giving high earners lots of tax subsidies!

Meesared

The thing is most of those tax subsidies have been being cut/reduced over the past few years.

L1011

This budget tightened reliefs and removed shelters for multiple sources of income that high earners may have. Add this to our extremely progressive tax system and they most certainly pay a hell of a lot more.

This seems to come down to begrudgery that someone else still has a few quid left even when their tax load is ten times higher already

By all means, remove more shelters and ensure people pay what they're liable to. But just increasing the already very high rates just hammers those who are already paying

baby and crumble

everything to do with the budget makes me feel like this-

wonderfulname

All I remember of maths is summed up below;



I like pie...

jaffacakesyum

mango salsa wrote: »

Are they really?

There's a huge amount been thrown around in this thread. Claim and Counter claim have been made but I've seen almost no evidence for any of the claims

Here is some evidence that backs up exactly what Stephen is saying

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0224/1224312309019.html

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2012/07/raising-the-floor.html

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2012/07/bathing-the-rich.html

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/03/27/2010-survey-of-income-and-living-conditions/



It's nothing to do with begrudgery at all.

I actually view it in terms of justice - those who can afford to pay more should pay more - while there is a massive inequality of extreme poverty and extreme wealth then is simply unjust.

But they ARE paying more. Much much much more. That's the way it should be. But this is not a socialist or communist country. They are working in a career which earns them a high wage. This is the path they chose. They are paying a huge amount in tax, the new property tax will hit them hardest; they are paying their way. People are acting like the rich are not contributing anything to this country when they are contributing the most.

I think this was a fair Budget given the circumstances. I will be affected by the student contribution rising (absolutely not opposed to this though - I would in fact be in favour of reintroducing fees), the drug payments scheme and of course the alcohol tax :pac:

It's of course going to be tougher for lower class/middle class families especially with kids and/or if one or both parents are unemployed. I do sympathise and I know it's not easy for most people (myself included at times) in this recession but tough luck. Lifes tough. You can't be handed everything on a silver plate, especially when this country has next to nothing and is paying back our debts.