Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

The money is going towards investment in the bus service - that's the BusConnects project. BRT will form part of that ultimately.

Sure but there are other aspects to BusConnects too that people could be heavily favourable about, while still being wary about BRT.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Sure but there are other aspects to BusConnects too that people could be heavily favourable about, while still being wary about BRT.

I see them all as necessary - BRT in itself is not a waste of money.

Some of the comments about it being a waste are OTT.

I do share your skepticism as far as the politicians are concerned, but dismissing BRT or large investment in the bus service in the short-medium term as other posters here are doing, while large swathes of the city will rely on them regardless of what rail investment happens isn't right either.

It's important that politicians are kept under pressure and that they realise that they complement one another and aren't alternatives.

KCAccidental

The main problem I have with the BRT is that it was announced in 2015 as a quick fix, 2 and a half years later and I'm not sure they have begun planning...

Claude Wilton

Grandeeod wrote: »

Oh the can, kick and road, way of doing things is still alive and well in Leoland.

And in Micheál land too if that comes about any time soon

LeinsterDub

Grandeeod wrote: »

Oh the can, kick and road, way of doing things is still alive and well in Leoland.

Were we expecting an MN/DM announcements at this time?

Chivito550

LXFlyer wrote: »

We need all of MN, DU and BRT/BusConnects - we can't not do anything about the bus service either.

Plenty of areas of the city will still rely on the bus service even if MN and DU are built.

They aren't and should not be mutually exclusive.

Enlighten me as to how BRT bendy buses are supposed to operate through the car park that is Dublin City Centre? If they are sharing road space with cars and regular buses then I fail to see their usefulness.

loyatemu

BRT is fine as a concept if it is done properly, my worry is they will cut corners; or more literally, not cut corners and force the buses to share road space with regular traffic where there isn't the political will to remove parking/CPO houses/reduce car lanes. That's harder to do with trams due to the physical infrastructure required.

mickmmc

I thought the revised Metro North will be built first and then the NTA will review the BRT from Swords project. That is what I recall reading in the local press.

I always felt that BRT was planned for Swords to kill off Metro North. However, the CEO of Fingal Co. Council opposed BRT and he went into the Department of Transport office in 2015 to fight for Metro North to be kept alive. Fair play to Paul Reid for not being fobbed off with BRT for Swords.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Enlighten me as to how BRT bendy buses are supposed to operate through the car park that is Dublin City Centre? If they are sharing road space with cars and regular buses then I fail to see their usefulness.

Well that's what we have to wait and see - the devil will be in the detail of the design.

Chivito550

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well that's what we have to wait and see - the devil will be in the detail of the design.

Can't see how it would work. Pushing a BRT up George's Street for example would be comical. Plenty more areas just as chockerblocked.

LXFlyer

mickmmc wrote: »

I thought the revised Metro North will be built first and then the NTA will review the BRT from Swords project. That is what I recall reading in the local press.

I always felt that BRT was planned for Swords to kill off Metro North. However, the CEO of Fingal Co. Council opposed BRT and he went into the Department of Transport office in 2015 to fight for Metro North to be kept alive. Fair play to Paul Reid for not being fobbed off with BRT for Swords.

There were at least four other legs of BRT that don't go near Swords or Metro North - hence my comment that denouncing it as pointless is in itself rather pointless, given that it and/or the Bus Connects project should improve the lot of people who are near those legs.

As I say they need to be viewed as a package of improvements - not one versus the other.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Can't see how it would work. Pushing a BRT up George's Street for example would be comical. Plenty more areas just as chockerblocked.

Well you would have to see how they plan to segregate it - there is no point in looking at it through the current traffic situation - it and BusConnects are going to require major changes in traffic flows, CPOs, etc - that's why there's €800m allocated to it.

We've yet to see any form of detailed design for the other routes.

I tend to think it's best to wait until we get to that point before writing any investment project off.

But that's all off-topic!

Heartbreak Hank

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well you would have to see how they plan to segregate it - there is no point in looking at it through the current traffic situation - it and BusConnects are going to require major changes in traffic flows, CPOs, etc - that's why there's €800m allocated to it.

We've yet to see any form of detailed design for the other routes.

I tend to think it's best to wait until we get to that point before writing any investment project off.

But that's all off-topic!

Any indication when details of BusConnects, the BRTs or Metro North will be released?

LXFlyer

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Any indication when details of BusConnects, the BRTs or Metro North will be released?

BusConnects will go to consultation in early 2018 per the NTA CEO.

One would imagine that BRT will form part of that.

mickmmc

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/return-of-controversial-brt-to-swords-depends-on-metro-35790519.html

Article from Fingal Independent in June with regard to BRT to Swords (mentioned above).

Idbatterim

right, so it was scrapped to effectively cut one station and for a little more surface running, that was rejected in the original scheme that has PP. the two of them saving what less than 10% of the budget, most of which goes back to government anway. But no, lets delay major game changers for small fry. Invest the "savings" into this rubbish proposal instead :mad:

Ernest

Not looking good for Dublin Airport Rail link according to Journal.ie:

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-airport-by-rail-3633770-Oct2017/

Avada

In my opinion, it shouldn't be dublin metro or dart link. For a proper connection both should be built. Maybe I'm greedy.

MJohnston

A DART link would be better for tourists, a Metro link better for workers...yeah, both would be good, though I think if only one has to happen, it should be Metro.

Avada

MJohnston wrote: »

A DART link would be better for tourists, a Metro link better for workers...yeah, both would be good, though I think if only one has to happen, it should be Metro.

I agree, Metro should take priority. Dart however would open up a PT connection to the airport for all the areas on the coast. It would also allow easy connection from NI, Louth, Meath by rail.

Sam Russell

Avada wrote: »

I agree, Metro should take priority. Dart however would open up a PT connection to the airport for all the areas on the coast. It would also allow easy connection from NI, Louth, Meath by rail.

Not only that but it could be built in much less time. It is a green field solution with only a handful of property owners to be bought out, and Clongriffin is already more or less ready - at least the platforms are there now.

Would it be a stop gap while MN goes through yet another redesign?

Chivito550

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not only that but it could be built in much less time. It is a green field solution with only a handful of property owners to be bought out, and Clongriffin is already more or less ready - at least the platforms are there now.

Would it be a stop gap while MN goes through yet another redesign?

Guarantee you if they built that, they'd use it as a reason to no longer need to build Metro North.

Sam Russell

Chivito550 wrote: »

Guarantee you if they built that, they'd use it as a reason to no longer need to build Metro North.

You are probably right, but it would be a stupid approach to the requirement the Dublin Airport passenger numbers. Both MN AND the spur will not be enough if the second runway and the third terminal go ahead. Do not forget, the passengers need to get to the city centre, and the workers need to get to work. Those two requirements are different.

If passenger numbers get to four million, that is 10,000 a day. To put it another way, the fill of 150 buses, or maybe 10,000 cars to be parked, or maybe 7,000 taxi journeys. Or a mix of the above plus the 50,000 workers who need to go most days of the week.

The redesign of MN will put up the cost of MN by more than the cost of the Spur.

monument

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Any indication when details of BusConnects, the BRTs or Metro North will be released?

There was supposed to be some progress on BRT planning this year, Blanch to UCD design/route options.

Muahahaha

Agree that both MN and the Dart spur should be built. But Im also thinking could you imagine the southbound platform of Tara Street station having 300 luggage wheeling tourists land upon it? In its current state it would be complete and utter chaos ! Tara St would need a serious upgrade to handle the extra numbers. Does it even have any space to widen the platforms?

marno21

Couple of issues I have with a proposal to connect Dublin Airport with a DART.

1. Flights begin landing in Dublin Airport from the US at around 4am some mornings, and the first flights out of Dublin are at 5:50am. DART services don't run early enough to facilitate this. If you called a meeting with the drivers informing them of this, they'd be out the door quicker than you can say the word "strike".

2. The Northern line and the stretch of line from Connolly south through the Loopline Bridge is already chronically congested at peak times. Where do these new DARTs to the Airport fit in? The existing DARTs are full so the shuttle from Clongriffin and load the passengers onto existing DARTs isn't very viable. Off peak in fairness, it would improve loadings on DARTs.

3. There are through services from Cork, Galway, Waterford, Limerick, Westport and Tralee only at peak times, meaning extra PPT services would be required, meaning more drivers. Another major stumbling block. Somehow, I think Intercity to Heuston, Luas to Connolly and DART to Clongriffin followed by DART to the Airport may be a hard sell.

I accept that we will still have issues with number 3 on that list with Metro North until DART Underground is built, but these are the kind of issues facing such a DART link, not the Capital funding or land acquisition.

Sam Russell

I would see the Spur as a stand alone service of Airport-Clongriffin-Connolly with a 15 minute service, hopefully taking 15 to 20 minutes. An alternative might be to take it to Docklands with a walkway link to Luas red line.

The take on drivers attitude is irrelevant to the argument if the Spur was driverless as is quite possible technically. Remember, there was a time when every lift/elevator had a driver/operator, but not one is employed in that role today and not that long ago we had a conductor on every bus ringing the bell to tell the driver it was OK to depart.

There is no reason why the service could not operate early or late as required, and stops at stations unsuitable for suitcases would not happen.

If it was built, it would be made work and would be successful beyond all expectations.

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

Couple of issues I have with a proposal to connect Dublin Airport with a DART.

1. Flights begin landing in Dublin Airport from the US at around 4am some mornings, and the first flights out of Dublin are at 5:50am. DART services don't run early enough to facilitate this. If you called a meeting with the drivers informing them of this, they'd be out the door quicker than you can say the word "strike".

2. The Northern line and the stretch of line from Connolly south through the Loopline Bridge is already chronically congested at peak times. Where do these new DARTs to the Airport fit in? The existing DARTs are full so the shuttle from Clongriffin and load the passengers onto existing DARTs isn't very viable. Off peak in fairness, it would improve loadings on DARTs.

3. There are through services from Cork, Galway, Waterford, Limerick, Westport and Tralee only at peak times, meaning extra PPT services would be required, meaning more drivers. Another major stumbling block. Somehow, I think Intercity to Heuston, Luas to Connolly and DART to Clongriffin followed by DART to the Airport may be a hard sell.

I accept that we will still have issues with number 3 on that list with Metro North until DART Underground is built, but these are the kind of issues facing such a DART link, not the Capital funding or land acquisition.

Point 1 is nonsensical. If we took that approach, nothing would ever change in terms of how public transport operates. Of course DART operating hours would have to change to match the airport operating hours. That's something that would have to be dealt with in terms of new staff rosters and negotiations with the unions. That is certainly a reason to not invest.

As for point 2, you would in all probability change the Howth branch to a shuttle between Howth and Howth Junction outside of peak hours.

There is going to have to be some infrastructure expansion on the Northern Line at some point in the future, and it will not be optional if DART Underground happens. This would have to be in the form of three or four tracking, probably between Killester and Raheny to facilitate overtaking of stopping services.

My own view on this is that this spur ideally would form part of DART Underground, with passengers interchanging with Intercity services at Heuston.

I've no idea what you mean by initial sentence in point 3?

There are hourly services all day from Heuston to Cork with connections to Limerick and Tralee, along with services all day to/from Waterford and Galway and Westport.

Incidentally, the PPT service will be expanded once new drivers are finally trained up (which requires the current IR issues to be resolved), and I would expect to see an hourly off-peak service all day, along with Saturday and Sunday services. But a service expansion won't happen at least until the end of 2018.

LXFlyer

Muahahaha wrote: »

Agree that both MN and the Dart spur should be built. But Im also thinking could you imagine the southbound platform of Tara Street station having 300 luggage wheeling tourists land upon it? In its current state it would be complete and utter chaos ! Tara St would need a serious upgrade to handle the extra numbers. Does it even have any space to widen the platforms?

There are three stations in Dublin City Centre along the DART line (four if you include Grand Canal Dock). Do you seriously think everyone is going to get out at Tara Street? Hotels are spread out across the city, and people would use different stations.

There are plans for a redevelopment of the station with a new entrance on Tara Street, but that was put on hold due to the recession.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

Point 1 is nonsensical. If we took that approach, nothing would ever change in terms of how public transport operates. Of course DART operating hours would have to change to match the airport operating hours. That's something that would have to be dealt with in terms of new staff rosters and negotiations with the unions. That is certainly a reason to not invest.

As for point 2, you would in all probability change the Howth branch to a shuttle between Howth and Howth Junction outside of peak hours.

There is going to have to be some infrastructure expansion on the Northern Line at some point in the future, and it will not be optional if DART Underground happens. This would have to be in the form of three or four tracking, probably between Killester and Raheny to facilitate overtaking of stopping services.

My own view on this is that this spur ideally would form part of DART Underground, with passengers interchanging with Intercity services at Heuston.

I've no idea what you mean by initial sentence in point 3?

There are hourly services all day from Heuston to Cork with connections to Limerick and Tralee, along with services all day to/from Waterford and Galway and Westport.

Incidentally, the PPT service will be expanded once new drivers are finally trained up (which requires the current IR issues to be resolved), and I would expect to see an hourly off-peak service all day, along with Saturday and Sunday services. But a service expansion won't happen at least until the end of 2018.

In fairness you're just agreeing with marno there, who said that these were the issues facing a DART spur, you're just pointing out the way that they could be resolved, not saying that they aren't issues. Ultimately the point is, it's not as easy as just building the extension.