Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

In fairness you're just agreeing with marno there, who said that these were the issues facing a DART spur, you're just pointing out the way that they could be resolved, not saying that they aren't issues. Ultimately the point is, it's not as easy as just building the extension.

Well Marno21 seemed to me to be suggesting that these were reasons why it should not go ahead, which to me is nonsense.

Of course there will have to be changes but that in itself isn't a reason not to go ahead with it.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well Marno21 seemed to me to be suggesting that these were reasons why it should not go ahead, which to me is nonsense

I'm not sure where you're getting that, marno said specifically that these are issues a DART spur will face, nothing about it shouldn't go ahead. You're reading something in the post that isn't there.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're getting that, marno said specifically that these are issues a DART spur will face, nothing about it shouldn't go ahead. You're reading something in the post that isn't there.

Whatever - my point is they are not in anyway insurmountable, and are issues that in all probability are going to have be addressed regardless of whether a DART spur to the airport is built or not.

I'm sure marno21 can speak for themselves btw - I'm not particularly a fan of someone telling me what someone else is saying.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

I'm not particularly a fan of someone telling me what someone else is saying.

Well in fairness that's exactly what you were doing

roadmaster

If a spur was built would there be capacity issues especially at Connolly?

Zebra3

The DART connection to the airport would also provide, if done correctly, a connection between MN and the northside DART line. Chance to take cars off the road for those living in the NE suburbs and working in Swords/Dublin airport.

Sam Russell

roadmaster wrote: »

If a spur was built would there be capacity issues especially at Connolly?

The Spur built as a Dart extension would be part of Dart Underground and link to Heuston and beyond not necessarily impacting directly with Connolly.

But the Spur could be built as a MN Spur from the City centre toAirport to Clongriffin an an alternative to CC to Airport to Swords. This would connect the Airport to Dart for onward to Belfast and Bray. Also connect CC and stops in between to the Northern line. Not sure if there would be enough traffic though.

I do think the Spur should be built as as well as DN though.

roadmaster

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Spur built as a Dart extension would be part of Dart Underground and link to Heuston and beyond not necessarily impacting directly with Connolly.

But the Spur could be built as a MN Spur from the City centre toAirport to Clongriffin an an alternative to CC to Airport to Swords. This would connect the Airport to Dart for onward to Belfast and Bray. Also connect CC and stops in between to the Northern line. Not sure if there would be enough traffic though.

I do think the Spur should be built as as well as DN though.

The only problem is how would you get both a rail spur and MN serving the airport/North Dublin area, i would say the Dept of Finance would have heart failure if you asked for both. Some one made great point about the Motorway Network in a post recently that if they had seen the over all cost it would never of happened but by doing it in sections we nearly now have a complete motorway network.
Would it even be possibility if you had a spur from the Belfast line to the airport across to the Sligo line to the Cork line and back on to the Wexford line , you would have a m50 of sorts but for rail and we could have metro,luas and Park and rides all connecting in at various points and build it in stages. I know capacity needs is not there at the moment but in time we
will need a fully integrated public transport network that means to get to one part of the GDA you dont have to go via the city center to get where you want to go

Sam Russell

roadmaster wrote: »

The only problem is how would you get both a rail spur and MN serving the airport/North Dublin area, i would say the Dept of Finance would have heart failure if you asked for both. Some one made great point about the Motorway Network in a post recently that if they had seen the over all cost it would never of happened but by doing it in sections we nearly now have a complete motorway network.
Would it even be possibility if you had a spur from the Belfast line to the airport across to the Sligo line to the Cork line and back on to the Wexford line , you would have a m50 of sorts but for rail and we could have metro,luas and Park and rides all connecting in at various points and build it in stages. I know capacity needs is not there at the moment but in time we
will need a fully integrated public transport network that means to get to one part of the GDA you dont have to go via the city center to get where you want to go

Well, the advantage of the Spur is it could be built as a stand alone project, and could be built quickly as it is across open countryside. I would be built before MN even got a shovel in the ground.

MN could start life as a link from Swords to the Airport and then onto DCU, with the depot at the Airport. That bit is straightforward and could be built quite quickly since it is mostly surface running. The Ballymun bit could be cut and cover, surface, or on stilts.

Otherwise, it will be a decade before anything happens.

Bray Head

The Clongriffin Spur is an awful option, both on its own merits and compared to MN. For multiple reasons:

• Northern line is already congested
• Frequency would be max 15 minutes, worse than bus
• Service would be no faster than or potentially slower than bus using DPT - the route basically does three sides of a rectangle - MN being the other side
• You would need a bridge over M1, and huge renovations at the airport - MN already has a station box waiting
• Would generate an order of magnitude less trips than MN
• Would see very weak integration with rest of national and Dublin transport network

I have no idea why anyone if proposing this as a serious option, especially with serious decisions on MN rumoured to be close.

For those old enough to remember there was once a service called Aerdart which was a shuttle from Howth Junction to Airport. It closed after four years - and that was before the DPT was opened!

Bray Head

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the advantage of the Spur is it could be built as a stand alone project, and could be built quickly as it is across open countryside.  I would be built before MN even got a shovel in the ground.

This is nonsense. Building tracks across open countryside indeed does not provide technical challenges .

The problem is that you then have to put a bridge over an 8-lane highway, and then fit a line and a station in around a set of roads that handles close to a hundred thousand journeys daily. This would be a huge technical challenge and extremely expensive - no less than MN would be!

Avada

Bray Head wrote: »

The Clongriffin Spur is an awful option, both on its own merits and compared to MN. For multiple reasons:

• Northern line is already congested
• Frequency would be max 15 minutes, worse than bus
• Service would be no faster than or potentially slower than bus using DPT - the route basically does three sides of a rectangle - MN being the other side
• You would need a bridge over M1, and huge renovations at the airport - MN already has a station box waiting
• Would generate an order of magnitude less trips than MN
• Would see very weak integration with rest of national and Dublin transport network

I have no idea why anyone if proposing this as a serious option, especially with serious decisions on MN rumoured to be close.

For those old enough to remember there was once a service called Aerdart which was a shuttle from Howth Junction to Airport. It closed after four years - and that was before the DPT was opened!

AFAIK, there is no station box built at the airport for MN.

I'm not suggesting DART as an alternative to MN, but what you are forgetting is that not everyone travels to the airport from the city centre. Take everywhere from Clontarf to Howth Junction, there is no proper pt option to the airport, without going to the city centre first. A dart spur would open that up, and would also allow easy connection for people coming by rail from further north.

Bray Head

@Avada The catchment along the stretch from Clontarf to Howth Junction consists of:

• green space
• low-density housing
• sea

So yes of course it would generate trips, but not that many.


People coming from Louth would have to change at Clongriffin for an infrequent service. They would most likely just drive or get the bus as they currently do.


On the Dublin Airport station, my understanding was that space had been left in front of T2 (here) for a metro station - but am not the expert.

donvito99

MN would connect to Commuter services (possibly Dart in future) at Drumcondra. While it doesn't satisfactorily serve the northern line, it does serve the western.

Avada

Bray Head wrote: »

@Avada The catchment along the stretch from Clontarf to Howth Junction consists of:

• green space
• low-density housing
• sea

So yes of course it would generate trips, but not that many.


People coming from Louth would have to change at Clongriffin for an infrequent service. They would most likely just drive or get the bus as they currently do.


On the Dublin Airport station, my understanding was that space had been left in front of T2 (here) for a metro station - but am not the expert.

Quite a lot of airport workers live along the dart route (anecdotal, I don't have figures). It's not that low density.

The area linked to is where the hotel is being built, not the MN station.

loyatemu

donvito99 wrote: »

MN would connect to Commuter services (possibly Dart in future) at Drumcondra. While it doesn't satisfactorily serve the northern line, it does serve the western.

MN could be extended to connect to the Dart at Donabate, it's through green field so should be relatively cheap.

Sam Russell

Bray Head wrote: »

This is nonsense. Building tracks across open countryside indeed does not provide technical challenges .

The problem is that you then have to put a bridge over an 8-lane highway, and then fit a line and a station in around a set of roads that handles close to a hundred thousand journeys daily. This would be a huge technical challenge and extremely expensive - no less than MN would be!

Irish Rail use a working cost estimate of €200 million for the project, compared with €2 billion for Metro North. That is a order difference.

The question of a station can be answered by building one station that can cope with both proposals - it is not as if both are not needed.

Comparing travelling time by bus compared with train is ridiculous. I have been on the Aircoach stuck fr 15 mins (two weeks running) at the exit to the DPT going into town while a line of cars and trucks, just off the ferry, blocked the road trying to get to East Wall Road, at about 5 pm and further on, congestion lost a further 15 mins, so a 45 min journey took one and a half hours. Trains are a reliable way to travel to an airport, normally unaffected by traffic congestion.

Opposition to the Spur appears to be based on the assumption that if it gets built, then the MN project will not be built. The two projects are for different needs and will be built in different timescales.

Brian CivilEng

Bray Head wrote: »

@Avada The catchment along the stretch from Clontarf to Howth Junction consists of:

• green space
• low-density housing
• sea

So yes of course it would generate trips, but not that many.

I'm going to have to pull you up on that. Other than a few hundred metres near Clontarf road dart station, the catchment is nowhere near the sea (and even the sea in Clontarf is negated by shuttle buses increasing the catchment of that station to East Point). While there is a lot of Green space (Clontarf golf club, St. Annes Park being the main areas), Clontarf Road, Killester, Harmonstown, Raheny and Kilbarrack have around 100,000 people living within 1km of a station (2011 census). Housing is medium density.

I live in Raheny and work in the airport, there is no reason why my commute should involve a daily visit to Custom House Quay, but it does.

I think Metro North is better for the city and country as a whole, but a 7km spur from Clongriffin would benefit me!

Brian CivilEng

Avada wrote: »

The area linked to is where the hotel is being built, not the MN station.

The area reserved for a metrobox in Dublin airport is the "t2 surface car park" between the church and the t2 multistorey car park.
here

Avada

abitofacomedian wrote: »

The area reserved for a metrobox in Dublin airport is the "t2 surface car park" between the church and the t2 multistorey car park.
here

Yep, but it isn't built, unlike the poster's claim

Muahahaha

Sam Russell wrote: »

Irish Rail use a working cost estimate of €200 million for the project, compared with €2 billion for Metro North. That is a order difference.

Thing is as mentioned further up the thread the spur would load a few million extra journeys onto already packed Darts. The spur would have to come as well as triple tracking the northern line to make it feasible imo. That would bring the overall cost way up. Not saying it shouldnt be done, it should, but part of me thinks Irish Rail quoted that 200m figure knowing well that an airport spur would overload the capacity of the line which has them thinking they would get more funding later on to triple track. If anything the spur should go hand in hand with triple tracking and not in isolation.

ClovenHoof

LXFlyer wrote: »

Of course DART operating hours would have to change to match the airport operating hours. That's something that would have to be dealt with in terms of new staff rosters and negotiations with the unions. That is certainly a reason to not invest.

Really? For most people who depend on public transport that would be the No 1 reason not to pump any major capital investment into DART/CIE.

Sam Russell

Bray Head wrote: »

For those old enough to remember there was once a service called Aerdart which was a shuttle from Howth Junction to Airport. It closed after four years - and that was before the DPT was opened!

AerDart failed for reasons to do with traffic management on the road from Howth Junction and the Airport, plus it coincided with weekend closures of the Dart line because they were redoing the overhead wires. Plus Howth Junction is not a pleasant place to wait on a dark wet winter night.

The Spur would not suffer any of these problems. However, it would get patronage from tourists going CC and airline local passengers, as well as staff working at the airport. It could work as a shuttle Airport/Clongriffin, or as an express direct Airport to Connolly or Docklands, or as a Dart stopping at all stations.

Outside of Dart normal times, it could run Dockland to Airport non-stop fed by the Red line Luas. Remember, the Airport travel pattern is quite different from commuters.



Once built, it can be seen which works best.

donvito99

Would €200m be better spent elsewhere on IÉ? Dart to Maynooth, removal of crossings, lift PSRs, dual tracking etc

Sam Russell

donvito99 wrote: »

Would €200m be better spent elsewhere on IÉ? Dart to Maynooth, removal of crossings, lift PSRs, dual tracking etc

Yes, of course, but these projects all answer different needs. Dart to Maynooth would not cost €200 million unless you included the extra rolling stock needed for the full Dart extension. Again it is a 'quick' project that could start immediately, and be completed quickly with immediate benefits.

The inability of this Government to go ahead with the MN plan that still has a railway order is nothing short of a disgrace. However, that should not stop other worthy projects from going ahead when they are currently affordable. Both the Maynooth electrification and the Clongriffin Spur could have been built for less than the Gort to Tuam motorway cost. Now which should have been done first?

marno21

Given the large dearth of public transport, especially rail based transport in Dublin, I think one link to Dublin Airport (Metro North) is sufficient in the medium term.

I'd much rather the €200m that could be spent short/medium term on the Clongriffin spur were spent on getting DART Expansion to the point where it could be done as a PPP.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Given the large dearth of public transport, especially rail based transport in Dublin, I think one link to Dublin Airport (Metro North) is sufficient in the medium term.

I'd much rather the €200m that could be spent short/medium term on the Clongriffin spur were spent on getting DART Expansion to the point where it could be done as a PPP.

Surely it is MN that is the best candidate for PPP investment. It would be a standalone project.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely it is MN that is the best candidate for PPP investment. It would be a standalone project.

I'm talking about after Metro North. Metro North is planned to start within the next 4 years. The current programmed Government Capital Investment Plan includes the money to complete the planning of, and start the construction of New Metro North. The exact funding mechanism after that is not clear. Long term a funding solution needs to be found for DART Underground also, as it's currently not programmed and a more expensive project.

Grandeeod

roadmaster wrote: »

Some one made great point about the Motorway Network in a post recently that if they had seen the over all cost it would never of happened but by doing it in sections we nearly now have a complete motorway network.

That someone is talking tripe because it didn't happen that way at all. The building of the inter urban motorway network of 5 routes, to the border, Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford was announced in the NDP 2000 - 2006 and costed. The building programme was initially delayed due to disputes with landowners, but was completed only 4 years behind schedule. It was put forward as one overall project. The fact that it was built in various sections was simply down to planning issues and management of the programme across different CCs, the NRA and of course the private sector via PPP. But it was never presented as individual projects. It was announced as a motorway building programme and there was hardly a whisper of complaint from anyone. Read the NDP 2000-2006.

Therefore comparisons to rail infrastructure investment based on people balking at the cost is ri
diculous. Transport 21 lumped lots of projects and timeframes together for rail. I don't recall any complaint of any standing. The only people that balk at the cost of rail projects are politicians. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that building rail projects bit by bit is an easier sell to the public. The public want it. Its the political class that didder. That same political class built a motorway network in approx. 6 years.

MayoSalmon

Grandeeod wrote:

That someone is talking tripe because it didn't happen that way at all. The building of the inter urban motorway network of 5 routes, to the border, Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford was announced in the NDP 2000 - 2006 and costed.

Easy to fund the Motorway network I suppose when the state was enjoying the highest GDP figures in its history all above 8/9% per annum for 10 years straight.